Driver Only Operation

[plastictaffy]

Bit of an odd question, this.
If you have a route that's currently worked by drivers and guards, in general, is it very easy to convert over (forgetting about what ASLEF and the RMT might have to say about it) to DOO???
How much work is required? Would it neccesarily require new rolling stock, or could the rolling stock currently in use (post year 2000) be used??
Are there any mainlines (either here or on the continent) that are totally DOO??

 

[user15681]

I think it would depend on the circumstances at play.

There are also different forms of DOO. In north Kent, we have two. On the 465/466s, there are cameras on posts situated at regular carriage intervals along the platform and then a bank of screens at the stopping mark so the driver can see the entire length of his train from the screens. Alternatively, on the 395s, there are cameras on the exterior of each carriage which feedback into screens in the cab. So it would depend on what form you were going for. The cameras and screens on platforms would be relatively non-intrusive and easy to install, the cameras on carriages and screens in cab would be harder.

It depends what you class as a mainline, but technically all Highspeed services on SE are DOO. (There are On Board Managers but they aren't required for dispatch etc, so the train is only operated by the driver).

And although you say to forget about it, ASLEF would probably put up a fight.

 

[plastictaffy]

Yes, of course, ASLEF would hit the roof, and rightly so. To implement DOO on, say, the WCML from Northampton to Euston, how long would such a thing take??

 

[9K43]

As a guard in 1988 we were subject to DOO, and the way that
ASlef took away jobs from the guards.
The worst sort were ex guards, who got to be drivers due to trainmans concept in 1988.
The drivers would stab you in the back for £7.20 p allowance they got for getting rid of the guards.

 

[plastictaffy]

There's a good few like that with my TOC. Not my end of the line, but at depots further afield there are certainly a few that would sell their soul to the devil for an extra 4k a year.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, of course, ASLEF would hit the roof, and rightly so. To implement DOO on, say, the WCML from Northampton to Euston, how long would such a thing take??

It already is, for LM anyway.

ASLEF can be persuaded for DOO, it's the RMT that have the issues.

 

[Monty]

I was under the impression LM had guards on it's 350s throughout, I certainly saw one carry out dispatch not so long ago at Harrow & Wealdstone.

 

[Nym]

Ummm, LM is DOO? Doesn't seem to be when that guy at the back or in the middle keeps doing the doors...

 

[ainsworth74]

Let keep in mind that the OP is asking about what is entailed in converting to DOO not whether or not it's a good idea. So lets try and avoid discussion about the pros and cons of DOO and focus on the infrastructure needed to enable such a system of working.

 

[transmanche]

As well as mirrors/cameras for the driver to operate the doors safely; there should be an intercom/alarm system so that passengers can communicate with the driver (in some systems this can be linked with the on-board CCTV and IMO should be standard). There also needs to be complete radio/GSM-R coverage to allow the driver to communicate with the signaller and/or TOC control.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was under the impression LM had guards on it's 350s throughout, I certainly saw one carry out dispatch not so long ago at Harrow & Wealdstone.

Could be my mistake, apols.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe GSM-R satisfies the requirements for DOO(P) radio as standard, unlike the old NRN system which had to be supplemented by Cab Secure Radio on DOO(P) routes. And if the trains are specified with cameras and screens (and there is enough room in the cab for all the screens the driver needs to see) then there is no need for any change to the infrastructure.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Could be my mistake, apols.

All LM trains carry conductors, unless they've got any DOO in Birmingham

 

[zn1]

London midland should have been DOO over 20 years ago when it was Network southeast North, they tried and it failed...sadly

The guard became a redundant commodity when the 310's moved south to the LTS and Great eastern jobs and 317 and then 321 took over the outer suburban locals..designed for DOO...

the mirrors, cameras were installed, Units built for DOO - 317, 321 ran the service, since then the infrastructure rusted away, has been dismantled.
the New line went DOO with no probs after resignalling , but the main line well its different...i dont know how....all trains go fast....


it should have happened years ago but the Unions still think they run the LNWR services, not their employer, any improvement takes years to implement, and even when it works they aint happy..

the people who suffer...the punters...as always....

still gotta laff....your service can still be cancelled because of lack of traincrews...in the 21st century...

 

[bronzeonion]

London midland should have been DOO over 20 years ago when it was Network southeast North, they tried and it failed...sadly

The guard became a redundant commodity when the 310's moved south to the LTS and Great eastern jobs and 317 and then 321 took over the outer suburban locals..designed for DOO...

the mirrors, cameras were installed, Units built for DOO - 317, 321 ran the service, since then the infrastructure rusted away, has been dismantled.
the New line went DOO with no probs after resignalling , but the main line well its different...i dont know how....all trains go fast....


it should have happened years ago but the Unions still think they run the LNWR services, not their employer, any improvement takes years to implement, and even when it works they aint happy..

the people who suffer...the punters...as always....

still gotta laff....your service can still be cancelled because of lack of traincrews...in the 21st century...

Please don't get me started

 

[Crossover]

LM don't have any DOO on any part of the network to the best of my knowledge. The Abbey Flyer has been (or planned to be) DOO, but when taken over by LM, guards have gone back in - mirrors are still in place at the stations along the line, but most are riddled with dents from BB guns!

 

[455driver]

Please don't get me started

Dont rise to the muppet, they are just after a reaction.

 

[TEW]

LM don't have any DOO on any part of the network to the best of my knowledge. The Abbey Flyer has been (or planned to be) DOO, but when taken over by LM, guards have gone back in - mirrors are still in place at the stations along the line, but most are riddled with dents from BB guns!

Was the line DOO back when it was run using 313s, which ran DOO Euston-Watford Junction at the time?

 

[Crossover]

Was the line DOO back when it was run using 313s, which ran DOO Euston-Watford Junction at the time?

I'm afraid I don't know on that one. It's only recently that I have used the line myself

 

[Carlisle]

Was the line DOO back when it was run using 313s, which ran DOO Euston-Watford Junction at the time?

I don't think so ,I believe the Abbey branch along with all routes of the WCML to Rugby was part of the planned DOO scheme 20 or so years ago described earlier in this thread that never got introduced ,only the Watford DC lines actually went over

 

[LowLevel]

I believe, not rising to the bait, that the element of GSMR allowing announcements to be made by the signaller within the train has to be active, which it isn't in a lot of places.

I also believe new schemes requiring platform based equipment are no longer allowed (Paisley Canal etc is by to an existing scheme), so it all has to be done on train. This makes the conversion of BR era rolling stock not already DOO working very unlikely, same as existing privatisation stock like the 22x as I don't believe there is room in the cab for screens. I may be wrong but I've seen it a few times.

 

[33056]

Regarding DOO on the Southern end of the WCML, I believe the reason it was never implemented was down to a change of stock. Most, if not all, the platform equipment was in place, the signalboxes all had CSR, then the 317s were replaced by 321s which (please correct me if I am wrong) required a different type of DOO monitor.

 

[BestWestern]

London midland should have been DOO over 20 years ago when it was Network southeast North, they tried and it failed...sadly

The guard became a redundant commodity when the 310's moved south to the LTS and Great eastern jobs and 317 and then 321 took over the outer suburban locals..designed for DOO...

the mirrors, cameras were installed, Units built for DOO - 317, 321 ran the service, since then the infrastructure rusted away, has been dismantled.
the New line went DOO with no probs after resignalling , but the main line well its different...i dont know how....all trains go fast....


it should have happened years ago but the Unions still think they run the LNWR services, not their employer, any improvement takes years to implement, and even when it works they aint happy..

the people who suffer...the punters...as always....

still gotta laff....your service can still be cancelled because of lack of traincrews...in the 21st century...

Hmm, punters 'suffer' when travelling on a service with a Guard?! That's a new one! :roll:

 

[Monty]

Hmm, punters 'suffer' when travelling on a service with a Guard?! That's a new one! :roll:

Don't feed the troll mate, haters gonna hate.

 

[TheEdge]

I know its feeding the troll but I must ask...

still gotta laff....your service can still be cancelled because of lack of traincrews...in the 21st century...

What are drivers if not traincrew? Some sort of Stig-esque manrobots just plugged into the train?

 

[Monty]

Ironically enough most of the cancellations that London Midland customers have suffered from recently is because of the shortage of drivers and has very little to with guards!

 

[Tomnick]

I thought most of LM's traincrew issues were down to a lack of drivers, so I don't know how DOO would have changed much there.

Edit: beaten to it again!

 

[Scotrail84]

London midland should have been DOO over 20 years ago when it was Network southeast North, they tried and it failed...sadly

The guard became a redundant commodity when the 310's moved south to the LTS and Great eastern jobs and 317 and then 321 took over the outer suburban locals..designed for DOO...

the mirrors, cameras were installed, Units built for DOO - 317, 321 ran the service, since then the infrastructure rusted away, has been dismantled.
the New line went DOO with no probs after resignalling , but the main line well its different...i dont know how....all trains go fast....


it should have happened years ago but the Unions still think they run the LNWR services, not their employer, any improvement takes years to implement, and even when it works they aint happy..

the people who suffer...the punters...as always....

still gotta laff....your service can still be cancelled because of lack of traincrews...in the 21st century...

Complete roaster.

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe GSM-R satisfies the requirements for DOO(P) radio as standard, unlike the old NRN system which had to be supplemented by Cab Secure Radio on DOO(P) routes. And if the trains are specified with cameras and screens (and there is enough room in the cab for all the screens the driver needs to see) then there is no need for any change to the infrastructure.

Platform lighting can be (and has been) an issue.

 

[455driver]

Complete roaster.

Do you mean rooster?

Or am I missing something?
probably am!