Does going down the ramp constitute trespass ?

[Halifaxlad]

I'm just curious as I'm not one who does but does going down the ramp but not onto the tracks constitute trespass ?

 

[Topological]

I'm just curious as I'm not one who does but does going down the ramp but not onto the tracks constitute trespass ?

File it in the same set of questions as the fact that taking goods off a supermarket shelf is theft until the point that you demonstrate a willingness to pay at the checkout. Technical crime rather than something people get prosecuted for. Presuming the station is private land then even being on the platform can be a technical offence.

Likely also covered by a set of bylaws which do not define trespass, but specific offences related to the railway.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I'm just curious as I'm not one who does but does going down the ramp but not onto the tracks constitute trespass ?

There are often signs prohibiting such a move "passengers must not pass this point". Doing so would be a greach of the bylaws and/or failing to obey an instruction given by an authorised person (the person who had the sign put up - older signs often say "by order, John Doe, General Manager LSWR" or similar)

 

[DJ_K666]

There are often signs prohibiting such a move "passengers must not pass this point". Doing so would be a greach of the bylaws and/or failing to obey an instruction given by an authorised person (the person who had the sign put up - older signs often say "by order, John Doe, General Manager LSWR" or similar)

It's the fine of 40 shillings that gets me. I doubt the court would accept £2 on the grounds that that is, in fact, 40 shillings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are often signs prohibiting such a move "passengers must not pass this point". Doing so would be a greach of the bylaws and/or failing to obey an instruction given by an authorised person (the person who had the sign put up - older signs often say "by order, John Doe, General Manager LSWR" or similar)

In common law terms passing a sign stating that the public are not admitted past that point would be trespass (provided there wasn't something that overrode that, e.g. it was a public footpath on which a farmer was trying their luck). Not sure of the specifics of criminal railway trespass but I'd imagine it would be the same.

It is odd though that some of those signs say "pass this point" and some say "cross the line".

It's probably moot in modern terms, though, as platform ends are now mostly fenced, and passing the fence is clearly leaving a public area.

 

[swt_passenger]

In common law terms passing a sign stating that the public are not admitted past that point would be trespass (provided there wasn't something that overrode that, e.g. it was a public footpath on which a farmer was trying their luck). Not sure of the specifics of criminal railway trespass but I'd imagine it would be the same.

It is odd though that some of those signs say "pass this point" and some say "cross the line".

It's probably moot in modern terms, though, as platform ends are now mostly fenced, and passing the fence is clearly leaving a public area.

I believe “cross the line“ in that context means “cross the tracks”. Sometimes there’s a painted line at the top of the ramp, so some people argued about the meaning. Recent practice is the more explicit “must not pass this point”.

Then of course as you note, current standards seem to have made ramps a non-preferred solution, in favour of squared off ends with fencing, gates, and steps, and it’s pretty obvious you can’t normally pass.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

To access Pevensey Bay station, you have to walk up the ramp onto the platform.

Strangely the Hastings bound platform has had a metal barrier put in, but the Brighton one hasn't. It was always quite exciting to stand at the bottom of the ramp, holding my toddlers hand tightly and watching the through trains go rushing past.

 

[Royston Vasey]

To access Pevensey Bay station, you have to walk up the ramp onto the platform.

Strangely the Hastings bound platform has had a metal barrier put in, but the Brighton one hasn't. It was always quite exciting to stand at the bottom of the ramp, holding my toddlers hand tightly and watching the through trains go rushing past.

View attachment 180071

Yes there must be countless examples of this at rural stations, with and without some kind of guardrail!

Foxton is another example where a small platform-height wooden picket fence is all that separates you from the wheels of speeding units at chest height. It can be quite disconcerting.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/o7M8wk39VwJEG6c47?g_st=ac

And a slightly sleepier example at Buckenham

 

[birchesgreen]

There are loads of stations like this, i can think of a few in Birmingham too so not just in rural locations.

 

[Mojo]

I believe “cross the line“ in that context means “cross the tracks”.

You are certainly correct, as typically this sign included in smaller letters with the writing "except by means of the footbridge" at the bottom.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

There are loads of stations like this, i can think of a few in Birmingham too so not just in rural locations.

Yes, but how many of them have  nothing separating you from the line? The fence at Pevensey Bay platform 1 stops about a metre before the ramp starts.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Aren't we moving away from having ramped platform ends these days? Obviously that's not applicable to stations where the ramped end is the access.

 

[PLY2AYS]

It's the fine of 40 shillings that gets me. I doubt the court would accept £2 on the grounds that that is, in fact, 40 shillings.

Unless of course they take into account inflation and interest since the sign was put up

 

[zwk500]

Aren't we moving away from having ramped platform ends these days? Obviously that's not applicable to stations where the ramped end is the access.

Generally yes, NR prefers to fit a gate and set of steps than to install a ramp. Don't think they are specifically demolishing ramps though, it's more if new/extended platforms are built, they just don't bother with the ramp.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You are certainly correct, as typically this sign included in smaller letters with the writing "except by means of the footbridge" at the bottom.

Someone with a better knowledge of how the English language works (I did pass Eng Lang O level, but was thrown out of Eng Lit) will know the proper terms to use, but the full text produces an almost perfect poem if you look at the number of syllables:

Passengers must not cross the line / Except by means of the footbridge

Splits (syllablewise) into 8/8, and sounds fine with the emphasis on the first and fourth syllables of each half. It's not quite perfectly balanced in that line 1 also wants emphasis on the sixth and/or eighth syllables ('cross', 'line') and line 2 wants it on syllable 7 ('foot').

Also works if there's a subway instead of a footbridge.

(edited to put in a missing space)

 

[swt_passenger]

Someone with a better knowledge of how the English language works (I did pass Eng Lang O level, but was thrown out of Eng Lit) will know the proper terms to use, but the full text produces an almost perfect poem if you look at the number of syllables:


Splits (syllablewise) into 8/8, and sounds fine with the emphasis on the first and fourth syllables of each half. It's not quite perfectly balanced in that line 1also wants emphasis on the sixth and/or eighth syllables ('cross', 'line') and line 2 wants it on syllable 7 ('foot').

Also works if there's a subway instead of a footbridge.

A poet,
and we didn’t
know it…

 

[fairysdad]

"passengers must not pass this point"

"But I'm not a passenger, so it's okay."

 

[DJ_K666]

Unless of course they take into account inflation and interest since the sign was put up

Yep, although that will require a new sign. It'd be worth it for the looks on their faces though...

 

[alxndr]

To access Pevensey Bay station, you have to walk up the ramp onto the platform.

Strangely the Hastings bound platform has had a metal barrier put in, but the Brighton one hasn't. It was always quite exciting to stand at the bottom of the ramp, holding my toddlers hand tightly and watching the through trains go rushing past.

View attachment 180071

On the east-bound platform the path is perpendicular to the track, so the barrier is there to ensure people turn and don’t carry on directly onto the track. On the west-bound platform the path runs parallel to the track so you’re heading the right direction already.

 

[simonw]

File it in the same set of questions as the fact that taking goods off a supermarket shelf is theft until the point that you demonstrate a willingness to pay at the checkout. Technical crime rather than something people get prosecuted for. Presuming the station is private land then even being on the platform can be a technical offence.

Likely also covered by a set of bylaws which do not define trespass, but specific offences related to the railway.

Taking items from a supermarket shelf is not theft as theft requires that you intend to permanently deprive the owner of the property, it is merely a step in the process from offer to treat through to purchase, unless you actually do a runner.

 

[Topological]

Taking items from a supermarket shelf is not theft as theft requires that you intend to permanently deprive the owner of the property, it is merely a step in the process from offer to treat through to purchase, unless you actually do a runner.

It is an interesting one, off topic here, but did make for a good Law tutorial. Of course, unless you plan to replace the food on the shelf, you do intend to permanently deprive.

Mens rea and actus reus are both present. You plan to keep the food and you have physically taken it.

In the supermarket case, there is an implicit contract that you will pay. No one would ever think there was a crime.

Worth saying I took that class almost 25 years ago so may not quite have the right terms.

 

[Deepgreen]

File it in the same set of questions as the fact that taking goods off a supermarket shelf is theft until the point that you demonstrate a willingness to pay at the checkout. Technical crime rather than something people get prosecuted for. Presuming the station is private land then even being on the platform can be a technical offence.

Likely also covered by a set of bylaws which do not define trespass, but specific offences related to the railway.

In a shop, taking stuff off the shelves is not theft unless you leave the premises without paying. You are there by permission of the owner, and so are not trespassing either. The same applies with stations - you are there by permission (in normal circumstances) and so no offence has been committed.

 

[Topological]

In a shop, taking stuff off the shelves is not theft unless you leave the premises without paying. You are there by permission of the owner, and so are not trespassing either. The same applies with stations - you are there by permission (in normal circumstances) and so no offence has been committed.

The latter point being my point, you are there by permission. Same with taking stuff from supermarket shelves, it is the permission to do it which is the key.

(Note that i am not convinced remaining on the premises counts, otherwise stores may have trouble stopping shoplifters in the act)

In this case I think the permission to be on the station would not include permission to be on the ramp even if permission applied to be on the top surface of the platform.

 

[simonw]

It is an interesting one, off topic here, but did make for a good Law tutorial. Of course, unless you plan to replace the food on the shelf, you do intend to permanently deprive.

Mens rea and actus reus are both present. You plan to keep the food and you have physically taken it.

In the supermarket case, there is an implicit contract that you will pay. No one would ever think there was a crime.

Worth saying I took that class almost 25 years ago so may not quite have the right terms.

Well off topic, but no you can get to the checkout and rescind your offer to purchase before it's accepted, or the shop can reject your offer to purchase. I

Of course it you stuff a bottle of wine up your jumper the store might infer you aren't going to be making an offer to buy and if you pass the tills without paying all bets are off.

 

[Cowley]

Whoa there with the supermarket stuff please!

Going past the sign on the platform would be a bit like talking about supermarkets in a thread about station ramps…

 

[CHobbs]

I'm just curious as I'm not one who does but does going down the ramp but not onto the tracks constitute trespass ?

I would imagine so, yes.

 

[Jan Mayen]

So, just to make sure I've understood all the above threads, if I nicked something from Travellers Fare and ran down the platform end ramp, I can only be charged with attempting to take a thread off topic?

 

[Cowley]

So, just to make sure I've understood all the above threads, if I nicked something from Travellers Fare and ran down the platform end ramp, I can only be charged with attempting to take a thread off topic?

Yeah that’s pretty much it. Nice, simple and straightforward rules for living your life.

 

[Millisle]

If you have a long enough memory as I do now, 'Passengers must not cross the line' had its emphasis on the first word and meant in contrast to staff, who leapt down routinely and crossed between platforms constantly all day as normal practice and also used the barrow cossing for which the ramps were intended. It was a different world.

 

[styles]

Trespass on the railways is quite different to a lot of scenarios described here about supermarkets, etc.

Trespass in most situations is (or at least starts as) as a civil matter. If somebody leaves their front door open and a randomer walks in, that's a civil matter. The owner can use reasonable force to remove the person, but there's not automatically a criminal offence to report.

Trespass on the railways is a criminal offence. The legislation (British Transport Commssion Act 1949) basically just requires a notice to be present. The older legislation (Railway Regulation Act 1840) can be used to enforce trespass rules also, but it requires wilfulness, and also requires a refusal to leave when asked to do so, so not really good at preventing trespass.

If there's no sign saying it's trespass, then it's not an offence.

I'm not sure whether crossing "the line" refers to a painted line on the ground or the railway line, but given how infrequently they are accompanied by a painted line, I'd be inclined to suggest either it means the railway line, or you could at least mount a defence that you believed it referred to the railway line. If the railways wanted to make it clear, they could word it clearer, as the legislation isn't prescriptive in what wording the sign requires. "Passengers must not pass this point.", being a common alternative and arguably much clearer. If you wanted to get pedantic about the 'passenger' point, "No unauthorised access beyond this point.", perhaps.