Does anybody not fly?

[DustyBin]

The consensus is nearly unanimous these days:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change

Even if one accepts the headline percentage, there's so much nuance as to still render the claim highly misleading at best. I'd be part of the consensus (were I a climate scientist) apparently!

 

[Shrop]

I've never really looked very far around this Forum all that much - it seems to have an almost endless supply of subjects, many of them very interesting. I'll try to resist getting involved in too many threads, but this one makes me think of a couple of personal trips to do with not flying, which may or may not interest others.

A few years ago my wife and I had a Christmas present from our son, which was Eurostar tickets to Paris. I thought it might be interesting to use them for a day trip, which was quite a challenge starting in Shrewsbury, but we did it. We left Shrewsbury just before 05.30, and arrived into Euston soon after 8.00am, in time to walk to St.Pancras for the 09.31 to Paris. Once there we caught the Metro to a superb bistro restaurant near the Seine where we had an excellent and leisurely meal, before heading to the Sacre Coeur for a look round, and then to the Gare du Nord. Back in London we had enough time for a quick drink at the Doric Arch, then back to Shrewsbury just after midnight. Yes, it was a long day, but starting and finishing in our own bed from Shropshire to Paris without using any flights did leave us feeling quite a sense of achievement!

Inspired by that, the next year we had a short holiday in Andorra. We travelled to London in the morning, then to Paris in the afternoon, and then the sleeper train from Paris Austerlitz to l'Hospitalet, where there is a connecting bus through the Pyrenees to Andorra. We had just one night there, but it did give us two full days since we arrived soon after breakfast time, and didn't need to leave until late afternoon, to catch the sleeper train back to Paris. This meant that we left Shropshire without any need to get up early, and arrived back home in the afternoon just three days later after two full days in Andorra, all without using any flights. On the return trip we had booked the 10.13 Eurostar out of Gare du Nord, thinking this would allow plenty of time for breakfast after arriving on the sleeper train at 07.20. What we hadn't bargained for was arriving into the opposite side of the city centre of Paris 2h20m late, but that's another story ...

 

[peteb]

It's almost impossible not to fly to Europe from the Midlands unless the first night's destination is in the Amsterdam, Cologne, Strasbourg, Lyon, Paris arc.

The lack of a proper high speed line from the Channel Tunnel to the Midland and the North necessitates a lengthy station transfer in London plus the usual Eurostar check-in shenanigans.

If there was a direct train from Manchester to Paris in 4 hours or Birmingham to Brussels in 4 hours it would be a no brainer but as it stands it's still quicker to fly, even with the 2hr check in, security etc.

And overnight trains are very difficult for us light sleepers: the next day is more or less wasted.

I actually enjoy flying. Whilst the planes are in the air I'll use them.

 

[Starmill]

It's almost impossible not to fly to Europe from the Midlands unless the first night's destination is in the Amsterdam, Cologne, Strasbourg, Lyon, Paris arc.

The lack of a proper high speed line from the Channel Tunnel to the Midland and the North necessitates a lengthy station transfer in London plus the usual Eurostar check-in shenanigans.

If there was a direct train from Manchester to Paris in 4 hours or Birmingham to Brussels in 4 hours it would be a no brainer but as it stands it's still quicker to fly, even with the 2hr check in, security etc.

And overnight trains are very difficult for us light sleepers: the next day is more or less wasted.

I actually enjoy flying. Whilst the planes are in the air I'll use them.

There are a tiny handful of connections at Lille which allow London - Montpellier in a comfortable day, adequate to get to London with connection time. But this ends up being 0930 from say Birmingham and 2100 into Montpellier so a very long day. An out of station connection in London and then another one in Paris is a real stressful day unfortunately it's too much.

 

[Shrop]

It's almost impossible not to fly to Europe from the Midlands unless the first night's destination is in the Amsterdam, Cologne, Strasbourg, Lyon, Paris arc.

The lack of a proper high speed line from the Channel Tunnel to the Midland and the North necessitates a lengthy station transfer in London plus the usual Eurostar check-in shenanigans.

If there was a direct train from Manchester to Paris in 4 hours or Birmingham to Brussels in 4 hours it would be a no brainer but as it stands it's still quicker to fly, even with the 2hr check in, security etc.

And overnight trains are very difficult for us light sleepers: the next day is more or less wasted.

I actually enjoy flying. Whilst the planes are in the air I'll use them.

There are a tiny handful of connections at Lille which allow London - Montpellier in a comfortable day, adequate to get to London with connection time. But this ends up being 0930 from say Birmingham and 2100 into Montpellier so a very long day. An out of station connection in London and then another one in Paris is a real stressful day unfortunately it's too much.

Crumbs you people, you're on a forum for railways! You sound as though travelling on them is a real chore

 

[Starmill]

Crumbs you people, you're on a forum for railways! You sound as though travelling on them is a real chore

Unfortunately it just is usually if you're doing a journey like Birmingham - Montpellier all in one day. Two awkward interchanges, one full day of travel (around 10 hours) and the same awkward check in and security nonsense as an airport.

 

[Shrop]

Unfortunately it just is usually if you're doing a journey like Birmingham - Montpellier all in one day. Two awkward interchanges, one full day of travel (around 10 hours) and the same awkward check in and security nonsense as an airport.

My wife and I enjoy rail travel and if we have a long rail journey we take things to read, things to eat, and we enjoy seeing the changing countryside. Okay, so checking in is a faff, although it really doesn't take as long as it does at an airport. We've travelled from Shrewsbury to Paris a handful of times by train, arriving into Euston only 1h20m before our departure from St Pancras, and it's been no trouble at all - if we'd been travelling from Heathrow or Gatwick we would certainly have wanted more like 3 or even 4 hours from Euston.

I can understand that Birmingham to Montpellier makes sense flying, in which case I guess you'd have flown from Birmingham airport, but for us, part of the pleasure would have been the journey. Eurostar is usually fun, as is the TGV, and we would have done something like arranging this around a meal in Paris to make the trip into part of the holiday. Each to their own I guess

 

[Starmill]

My wife and I enjoy rail travel and if we have a long rail journey we take things to read, things to eat, and we enjoy seeing the changing countryside. Okay, so checking in is a faff, although it really doesn't take as long as it does at an airport. We've travelled from Shrewsbury to Paris a handful of times by train, arriving into Euston only 1h20m before our departure from St Pancras, and it's been no trouble at all - if we'd been travelling from Heathrow or Gatwick we would certainly have wanted more like 3 or even 4 hours from Euston.

I can understand that Birmingham to Montpellier makes sense flying, in which case I guess you'd have flown from Birmingham airport, but for us, part of the pleasure would have been the journey. Eurostar is usually fun, as is the TGV, and we would have done something like arranging this around a meal in Paris to make the trip into part of the holiday. Each to their own I guess

It's something that works well for enthusiasts but can't become mainstream unfortunately.

 

[Krokodil]

Crumbs you people, you're on a forum for railways! You sound as though travelling on them is a real chore

I'm not going to pretend that I enjoyed last night's experience - cancelled sleeper so took several ICEs to get from Vienna to Brussels in time for my Eurostar). I'm shattered, ICE seats are no good for sleeping in (whatever was fitted to a Thalys I once used was great however, winged headrests are key.

When it goes well it's great though. From North Wales I can get to Basel or Hamburg in a long day. Montpellier is perfectly achievable too.

I prefer to use sleeper services where possible though, to save wasting a day travelling and to allow me to arrive feeling refreshed. Having spent time at sea I'm quite used to a rocking motion and the noise of the train, I find it sends me off to sleep reasonably well. Saturday night's snorer on the other hand...

 

[peteb]

Crumbs you people, you're on a forum for railways! You sound as though travelling on them is a real chore

Not at all, but to enjoy two weeks trundling round Italy I didn't want to have to add two days at each end for train travel just to get there. Plus I've done it by train when air was expensive! I'd jump at the chance to get on a train at Birmingham and get off at Marseille or Cologne!

 

[Shrop]

I'd jump at the chance to get on a train at Birmingham and get off at Marseille or Cologne!

So would a lot of other people, but there are plenty on this forum who insist that through trains simply wouldn't be worth providing as few people would use them!

 

[peteb]

So would a lot of other people, but there are plenty on this forum who insist that through trains simply wouldn't be worth providing as few people would use them!

Yet the push in mainland Europe seems to be to go for better inter-country connectivity! We are, here in the UK, very much an island despite the tunnel.

 

[bleeder4]

It's almost impossible not to fly to Europe from the Midlands unless the first night's destination is in the Amsterdam, Cologne, Strasbourg, Lyon, Paris arc.

I'm not sure that's true. I've done Worcester to Barcelona, as well as Worcester to Nice in a day by train. As long as you can get to St Pancras in time for a Eurostar at around 9AM, then you can get a TGV from Paris just after lunch.

 

[gswindale]

Yet the push in mainland Europe seems to be to go for better inter-country connectivity! We are, here in the UK, very much an island despite the tunnel.

The problem is our border controls - should have joined the Schengen area when we had the chance.

My parents' passports are due to expire shortly and they've decided not to renew (being 70+). I can't remember when they last flew anywhere (possibly 1995 to Israel), but until now they've often taken the Eurostar for holidays in France/Belgium, but they've decided that the impending (and now delayed) roll-out of the EES meant it wasn't worth it.

 

[peteb]

I'm not sure that's true. I've done Worcester to Barcelona, as well as Worcester to Nice in a day by train. As long as you can get to St Pancras in time for a Eurostar at around 9AM, then you can get a TGV from Paris just after lunch.

Ok, you're right. You could do Wolverhampton to Milan by departing at 05something and arriving at 23something via Paris and Zurich, but unless a lot of TGV type running is your thing, what a chore: unless you're going in midsummer much of the journey is in the dark, and pretty exhausting. I'd suggest that a flight taking 2hrs even with airport hassles to/from would give you a decent lie-in, and time for a wander round a foreign city after hotel check-in and meal in the evening. Then ready the next day to explore by train. For me that's how I generally travel but I agree it's not for everyone.

 

[Shrop]

Here's another, a couple of years ago my wife and I, plus another couple, were on a week's cruise starting in Barcelona. We left home (Shropshire) mid morning, train to Euston, walk to St Pancras and then Eurostar to Paris. Then the Metro to Austerlitz where we had an excellent early evening meal before catching the overnight sleeper to LaTour de Carol on the Spanish border. That station has an excellent buffet which was perfect for breakfast, filling in the gap of just over an hour before the scenic onward train to Barcelona. We had considered coming back by TGV which would have made the entire trip to Shrewsbury possible in one day, but other commitments meant we needed to fly, which put us back into Birmingham a few hours earlier. But the outward trip by rail made a very enjoyable extension to the holiday

 

[atillathehunn]

As a matter of interest, what do you think the usual profile of a frequent flier is? I'm not really sure there is one

Someone with a pattern - regular commuters or with those a regular route/set of routes. E.g. those who commute to a larger corporate office or HQ etc. Relatively senior (but not so senior that the boring bits of travel is farmed out to someone more junior). Also I would suggest people who do relatively short duration trips. In terms of leisure - high net worth, I would imagine?

I do not fit that profile at all. I am neither junior nor senior, and do not work in the private sector. While my leisure travel involves a lot of repetition, most of my journeys are very scattergun to a range of places, including a lot of humanitarian destinations, including on non-scheduled flying on humanitarian shuttles. Journeys are rarely out and back (not even to the same country, often), very rarely on the same airline (even the same alliance).

In the last month I took seven flights, with two more next week, and a further four more before the end of the year.

 

[takno]

Someone with a pattern - regular commuters or with those a regular route/set of routes. E.g. those who commute to a larger corporate office or HQ etc. Relatively senior (but not so senior that the boring bits of travel is farmed out to someone more junior). Also I would suggest people who do relatively short duration trips. In terms of leisure - high net worth, I would imagine?

I do not fit that profile at all. I am neither junior nor senior, and do not work in the private sector. While my leisure travel involves a lot of repetition, most of my journeys are very scattergun to a range of places, including a lot of humanitarian destinations, including on non-scheduled flying on humanitarian shuttles. Journeys are rarely out and back (not even to the same country, often), very rarely on the same airline (even the same alliance).

In the last month I took seven flights, with two more next week, and a further four more before the end of the year.

You seem to be thinking of "people whose flying I don't approve of". My definition of a frequent flyer is somebody who takes an unusual number of flights. Whether they build an orphanage and heal the sick when they arrive is strictly beside the point

 

[warwickshire]

Never have, Never will, nothing interesting abroad for me in any shape or form, to be honest can't be bothered to try now.

 

[atillathehunn]

You seem to be thinking of "people whose flying I don't approve of". My definition of a frequent flyer is somebody who takes an unusual number of flights. Whether they build an orphanage and heal the sick when they arrive is strictly beside the point

What an incredibly strange reply. You have really read what you want to in this.

In absolutely no part of my passage did I write or pass a judgement on 'approving' of flying. I do not judge anybody else for flying. In fact, if you had read my previous inputs here you would know that I think flying as a part of public transport should be accessible to all (sensibly taxed) but it will remain a critical part of life for the centuries to come. It helps me unite the two parts of my family, it helps me do my job, and it has helped me see magnificent parts of the world. I didn't even judge anybody for the job they do! (I would point out that your characterization is a gross misconception of my industry).

I simply said I don't consider myself a frequent flier. Others pointed out that numerically I probably am. My then point was I don't see it perhaps because I don't fit the profile, a profile I then described. I am not a frequent flier by design (because of usual determinants that I listed), rather I would describe myself as someone who just sort of ends up flying a lot.

Anyway, hugely disappointing interaction - I'll go back to the real world (I promise you, not an orphanage in sight) in a place I can almost guarantee most people don't know exists.

 

[takno]

What an incredibly strange reply. You have really read what you want to in this.

In absolutely no part of my passage did I write or pass a judgement on 'approving' of flying. I do not judge anybody else for flying. In fact, if you had read my previous inputs here you would know that I think flying as a part of public transport should be accessible to all (sensibly taxed) but it will remain a critical part of life for the centuries to come. It helps me unite the two parts of my family, it helps me do my job, and it has helped me see magnificent parts of the world. I didn't even judge anybody for the job they do! (I would point out that your characterization is a gross misconception of my industry).

I simply said I don't consider myself a frequent flier. Others pointed out that numerically I probably am. My then point was I don't see it perhaps because I don't fit the profile, a profile I then described. I am not a frequent flier by design (because of usual determinants that I listed), rather I would describe myself as someone who just sort of ends up flying a lot.

Anyway, hugely disappointing interaction - I'll go back to the real world (I promise you, not an orphanage in sight) in a place I can almost guarantee most people don't know exists.

Okay, but at the end of the day I'm saying that a frequent flyer is somebody who flies frequently, essentially because that's how the English language works, and you seem to be asking for an exemption. You are of course welcome to be as disappointed as you like.

 

[stuu]

Never have, Never will, nothing interesting abroad for me in any shape or form, to be honest can't be bothered to try now.

Nothing? Nothing on the entire planet? Not the Grand Canyon or the Amazon rain forest? or the Pyramids? Or to keep this on topic, the wonders of the Tokyo rail network? I would understand not wanting to fly for whatever reason, except for the idea that there is nothing interesting.

 

[12LDA28C]

Nothing? Nothing on the entire planet? Not the Grand Canyon or the Amazon rain forest? or the Pyramids? Or to keep this on topic, the wonders of the Tokyo rail network? I would understand not wanting to fly for whatever reason, except for the idea that there is nothing interesting.

Indeed, an attitude like that is hard to understand. Rather like the stereotypical American old couple who’ve never travelled beyond their state line ‘because we’ve got everything we want right here’, or something.

 

[zero]

I would describe myself as someone who just sort of ends up flying a lot.

That's what a frequent flier is!

 

[DustyBin]

What an incredibly strange reply. You have really read what you want to in this.

In absolutely no part of my passage did I write or pass a judgement on 'approving' of flying. I do not judge anybody else for flying. In fact, if you had read my previous inputs here you would know that I think flying as a part of public transport should be accessible to all (sensibly taxed) but it will remain a critical part of life for the centuries to come. It helps me unite the two parts of my family, it helps me do my job, and it has helped me see magnificent parts of the world. I didn't even judge anybody for the job they do! (I would point out that your characterization is a gross misconception of my industry).

I simply said I don't consider myself a frequent flier. Others pointed out that numerically I probably am. My then point was I don't see it perhaps because I don't fit the profile, a profile I then described. I am not a frequent flier by design (because of usual determinants that I listed), rather I would describe myself as someone who just sort of ends up flying a lot.

Anyway, hugely disappointing interaction - I'll go back to the real world (I promise you, not an orphanage in sight) in a place I can almost guarantee most people don't know exists.

For what it’s worth I can see what you’re getting at. There is a frequent flyer profile which you don’t fit, which is fair enough. You are a frequent flyer though by definition (not that I have an issue with frequent flyers, regardless of purpose!).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I simply said I don't consider myself a frequent flier. Others pointed out that numerically I probably am. My then point was I don't see it perhaps because I don't fit the profile, a profile I then described. I am not a frequent flier by design (because of usual determinants that I listed), rather I would describe myself as someone who just sort of ends up flying a lot.

I do know what what you’re getting at, frequent fliers are “traditionally” (for want of a better word) business people who travel a lot for work. The airlines’ frequent flier schemes are certainly set up to reflect this.

But things are changing. BA now have a lot of status passengers who got their status on leisure travel paid for by themselves.

I’m probably more of an edge case because I live on an island, but I’ve been on 21 flights this year so far. Is that frequent? Compared to most people it probably is. But then my average flight distance is 250 miles, and that’s been distorted by my summer holiday to Ibiza.

 

[43096]

nothing interesting abroad for me in any shape or form

How do you know unless you have tried?

 

[Butts]

As Saab used to say ….

Move Your Mind ….

Or P&O...

There's a World out there

 

[warwickshire]

How do you know unless you have tried?

To be honest, don't fancy travelling long distances, just prefer to stay around Mainline Britain, however suppose I could try, but local flights in Britain, but then again, probably would just get a train

 

[DustyBin]

To be honest, don't fancy travelling long distances, just prefer to stay around Mainline Britain, however suppose I could try, but local flights in Britain, but then again, probably would just get a train

You can fly to (say) Central Europe in the time it takes to get from (say) London to York on the train. Obviously there's the waiting around at the airport etc. to consider, but flights to most of Europe are actually pretty short.