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Does anybody not fly?

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MisterSheeps

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The science of climate change is pretty clear
Having a degree in the subject i would argue that the science is far from clear, and based on very short term measurements. We, as humans, happened to evolve towards the end of an ice age. Most of Earth's geological history has been warmer than now. There have been, maybe, 5 ice ages, totalling about 30 million years, in the 4.4 billion years. The long term measurements necessary to accurately predict climate change do not exist, maybe 150 years of accurate weather readings. Any science must be hedged with caveats. Politicians, and most people, do not understand that meteorology is about probability. The real issue is not human induced climate change, but human population and related development, and no one seems to want to address this issue. A divided world is not exactly a good way to address a world issue. Your, or my, hair shirt no-fly philosophy, or that of the rest of the affluent West, will not make the slightest difference to long term climate change.
 
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bleeder4

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I haven't flown since 2003. Not for environmental reasons or anything - simply because I didn't like how stressful and arduous airports had become after 9/11. I travel by train and ferry. With the growth of high speed rail lines across Europe, it's now possible to reach places like Barcelona and Milan in a day from central England. Plus sleeper trains are undergoing something of a renaissance at the moment, so they offer great time savings on longer distance routes.
 

Chester1

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For me air travel is an awful experience and would rather avoid it.
Unless I can fly from Bournemouth or Southampton(which is rare) I am stuck with London airports.
I sometimes drive to Dortmund which takes about 8 hours which is much the same as flying by the time it takes to take off on a plane I will be in Belgium approaching Holland in the car.
I can’t remember the last time my flight took off on time.
The whole preparation of getting on to a plane is awful. The flying bit is fine and then getting out at the other end with a decent amount of luggage it all starts again.
Being amongst so many stressful travellers who are rushing to both get on and off the plane is both funny and irksome.
I have done the journey by train twice which was far more enjoyable than driving or flying but that was in my younger days when time wasn’t as important.

I haven't flown since 2003. Not for environmental reasons or anything - simply because I didn't like how stressful and arduous airports had become after 9/11. I travel by train and ferry. With the growth of high speed rail lines across Europe, it's now possible to reach places like Barcelona and Milan in a day from central England. Plus sleeper trains are undergoing something of a renaissance at the moment, so they offer great time savings on longer distance routes.

Do you think you will change your view once the roll out of the new scanners is finally completed? It's a messy introduction but once it's done it will mean just a putting your hand luggage and coat in a tray.

If I lived within a days travel of Barcelona or Milan by train then I would travel more by train internationally. On paper I do but unfortunately it would mean an eye wateringly early start and being one delay away from getting stuck at one of three tight connections. It's different for people who live nearer to St Pancras.
 

DustyBin

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Having a degree in the subject i would argue that the science is far from clear, and based on very short term measurements. We, as humans, happened to evolve towards the end of an ice age. Most of Earth's geological history has been warmer than now. There have been, maybe, 5 ice ages, totalling about 30 million years, in the 4.4 billion years. The long term measurements necessary to accurately predict climate change do not exist, maybe 150 years of accurate weather readings. Any science must be hedged with caveats. Politicians, and most people, do not understand that meteorology is about probability. The real issue is not human induced climate change, but human population and related development, and no one seems to want to address this issue. A divided world is not exactly a good way to address a world issue. Your, or my, hair shirt no-fly philosophy, or that of the rest of the affluent West, will not make the slightest difference to long term climate change.

I completely agree; the science is extremely complicated yet is very often presented in a facile manner by the likes of the BBC et al.

I’ll readily admit to not being an expert, however I work in a highly polluting industry and climate change/green issues featured heavily in my degree course, so I take an interest in the subject. The notion that the science is settled is utter tosh quite frankly!
 

zero

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Do you think you will change your view once the roll out of the new scanners is finally completed? It's a messy introduction but once it's done it will mean just a putting your hand luggage and coat in a tray.

With the new scanners I have a 100% chance of my hand luggage needing to be searched manually, unless I remove items and put them in a separate tray without being observed doing so (otherwise I get screamed at).

Although I don't have to take out a bag of liquid items any more, doing so wasn't really a big deal
 

185

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We have to fly because Eurostar is just plain awful. Even with attractive fares, the hassle, unreliability, worse than an airport experience - no way.

Ryanair get you there. You may land sideways, on the wrong runway at the wrong airport, but their On Time Jingle still goes off, even with a tail strike and collapsed landing gear.
 

bahnause

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I completely agree; the science is extremely complicated yet is very often presented in a facile manner by the likes of the BBC et al.

I’ll readily admit to not being an expert, however I work in a highly polluting industry and climate change/green issues featured heavily in my degree course, so I take an interest in the subject. The notion that the science is settled is utter tosh quite frankly!
In the 1850s, the American Eunice Foote experimented with water vapour and carbon dioxide (CO2) and discovered that the latter caused the temperature to rise. She came to the conclusion that ‘an atmosphere containing this gas would give our earth a high temperature’. Only a few years later John Tyndall researched the natural greenhouse effect and identified other greenhouse gases in addition to CO2. And he links fluctuations in the CO2 concentration to the ice ages.

Even before the end of the 19th century, Svante Arrhenius mentions for the first time that humans are increasing the CO2 content of the atmosphere. The Swedish chemist researched the warming effect of carbon dioxide and its concentration in the Earth's atmosphere.

The principles of all these old measurements and experiments are still largely correct and reproducible today. However, more precise calculations can now be made using modern measuring methods. So the problem a hundred years ago was not a lack of understanding, but a lack of measuring points and accuracy.

So no, the basics are not complicated at all. Only the lies denying it get more complicated, because the facts don't support it and therefore some distraction is needed.

These lies were/are pushed by fossil fuel companies:

Misled
How the fossil fuel industry polluted the information landscape

Key points
  1. Internal corporate documents show that the fossil fuel industry has known about the reality of human-caused climate change for decades. Its response was to actively orchestrate and fund denial and disinformation so as to stifle action and protect its status quo business operations.
  2. As the scientific consensus on climate change emerged and strengthened, the industry and its political allies attacked the consensus and exaggerated the uncertainties.
  3. The fossil fuel industry offered no consistent alternative explanation for why the climate was changing -the goal was merely to undermine support for action.
  4. The strategy, tactics, infrastructure, and rhetorical arguments and techniques used by fossil fuel interests to challenge the scientific evidence of climate change-including cherry picking, fake experts, and conspiracy theories-come straight out of the tobacco industry's playbook for delaying tobacco control.

These key points reflect the position of experts studying climate denial and the history of fossil fuel interests, based on thousands of pages of documented evidence. [...]
 
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trainmania100

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I do fly, but I'd rather take my car. More flexibility in places like Scotland and Devon. Saves an extra £100+ as well on renting from enterprise.

It's the train I don't take....unless I'm in London or really have to. With decent freight stuff on a week day you kind of have to leave in peak time.

I don't really know the best places to buy cheap air tickets, I looked at advance Scotland flights once and it seemed around £300...with my car I can get 500 miles out of £70.
 

Krokodil

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We have to fly because Eurostar is just plain awful. Even with attractive fares, the hassle, unreliability, worse than an airport experience - no way.
I've had no issue with reliability over my last few trips.
 

Bantamzen

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Having a degree in the subject i would argue that the science is far from clear, and based on very short term measurements. We, as humans, happened to evolve towards the end of an ice age. Most of Earth's geological history has been warmer than now. There have been, maybe, 5 ice ages, totalling about 30 million years, in the 4.4 billion years. The long term measurements necessary to accurately predict climate change do not exist, maybe 150 years of accurate weather readings. Any science must be hedged with caveats. Politicians, and most people, do not understand that meteorology is about probability. The real issue is not human induced climate change, but human population and related development, and no one seems to want to address this issue. A divided world is not exactly a good way to address a world issue. Your, or my, hair shirt no-fly philosophy, or that of the rest of the affluent West, will not make the slightest difference to long term climate change.
I'm glad to see a balanced view on the subject, if for no other reason that some of the more hysterical voices out there are driving ordinary people away from believing that humanity actually has any meaningful impact on the environment. For some reason some environmentalists proclaiming the end of the world inside a few decades can't seem to understand the cynicism of many when meteorologists can't tell them exactly what the weather will be next Tuesday. (BTW this isn't a criticism of them, I do actually watch the Met Offices' more detailed daily and weekly forecasts on their YouTube channel so understand the complexity of getting an accurate forecast)

Its clear we need to make changes both to our energy production, storage and use, as well as consider some social issues to prevent population explosions and that these are issues the whole world need issue. But what is also needed is clear, calm heads to work towards sustainable, and viable long term solutions, even if those solutions take a long time. The world isn't going to come crashing to an end because Mr & Mrs Smith take the kids on holiday to Spain.

One last thing here, I might be a bit of an outlier but I actually enjoy the whole experience of flying. OK sometimes I get mildly irritated with long queues, or people not listening to security when loading the trays, but I love getting onto a craft, that surge of power as you thrust down the runway, having a cheeky glass of wine whilst chatting to fellow passengers. Man, I need to book another trip soon!!
 

bahnause

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I'm glad to see a balanced view on the subject, if for no other reason that some of the more hysterical voices out there are driving ordinary people away from believing that humanity actually has any meaningful impact on the environment. For some reason some environmentalists proclaiming the end of the world inside a few decades can't seem to understand the cynicism of many when meteorologists can't tell them exactly what the weather will be next Tuesday.
Someone who starts to mix up weather and climate should perhaps hold back on the subject of climate change.
Its clear we need to make changes both to our energy production, storage and use, as well as consider some social issues to prevent population explosions and that these are issues the whole world need issue. But what is also needed is clear, calm heads to work towards sustainable, and viable long term solutions, even if those solutions take a long time.
Oh yes, the long-term mindset that we haven't been able to get right for a good 40 years now. Back then, we would probably have had a few more options and more time.
One of the most common arguments against taking aggressive action to combat climate change is that doing so will kill jobs and cripple the economy. But this implies that there’s an alternative in which we pay nothing for climate change. And unfortunately, there isn’t. In reality, not tackling climate change will cost a lot.
 

Bantamzen

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Someone who starts to mix up weather and climate should perhaps hold back on the subject of climate change.

Oh yes, the long-term mindset that we haven't been able to get right for a good 40 years now. Back then, we would probably have had a few more options.
One of the most common arguments against taking aggressive action to combat climate change is that doing so will kill jobs and cripple the economy. But this implies that there’s an alternative in which we pay nothing for climate change. And unfortunately, there isn’t. In reality, not tackling climate change will cost a lot.
We're risking veering off topic here, so all I say is bad attempts at solving problems can be worse than the problem itself. For example some people would have the aviation industry all but closed down, but are unable to say how they would deal with economies around the world that would lose vast amounts if that ever happened.
 

185

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I've had no issue with reliability over my last few trips.
Just a few months ago, the queue from Brussels Midi went out of Eurostar's door, turned right, 200m all the way to the end of the Midi concourse, then a u-turn with a second 200m queue going all the way back along the Midi concourse right past the Eurostar office, out the north-west station exit doors and across the taxi rank. Seen similar nonsense at St Plonkers, many, many times.

If I wanted to visit a dystopian recreation of a 500m long queue for bread in Moscow in 1973, I'd have probably bought a Tardis. Rail should always be the better alternative to flying. Eurostar have for several years made it a far worse one, with them blaming everyone else.
 

MisterSheeps

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I actually enjoy the whole experience of flying
So do I, and looking down on clouds, mountains, coasts, cities. Another aspect to travel is that you get to see new places and realise the world is a wonderful place, experience different cultures and realise that, whatever their strange habits and skin colour, they are not so different in their hopes, fears and dreams than our own, so that maybe we can appreciate a common humanity.

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I can definitely recommend heading into Eastern Europe for some 'proper trains'. As well as sampling the Swiss narrow gauge, which often has opening windows on even modern units.
Sadly i have not visited Easter Europe, but I found Spain (north coast FEVE, FC de Robla) and Italy interesting, back then. Thailand is (currently, high speed plans progressing slowly) wonderful, slow clattering winding metre gauge where you can sit on the step of the open door watching the world go by :D
 
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Tetchytyke

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some people would have the aviation industry all but closed down, but are unable to say how they would deal with economies around the world that would lose vast amounts if that ever happened.
Would local economies actually lose that much?

Zoom, as much as anything else, has been the driver in the reduction of business travel. I see it in my line of work- pre-Covid people had to travel to see us, and now they will stay at home and attend meetings with us via Teams or Zoom. We get what we want, they get what they want, and nobody's had to fly for six hours to get it; the economy will do just fine.

A reduction in aviation may reduce tourism but the tourism benefit to actual local economies isn't as clear cut as you'd think. Lots of tourists go to the Canary Islands or Barcelona but the money doesn't stay in the local economy and doesn't benefit the local people, which is why we are seeing so many protests about over-tourism.

Tourism itself also has a significant environmental impact, as we are seeing with the chronic water shortages in the Balearics and in Murcia and Andalusia.

That's not to say we should all stay at home and holiday in the next village, but "oh the economy" isn't quite the gotcha you seem to think it is.

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Another aspect to travel is that you get to see new places and realise the world is a wonderful place, experience different cultures and realise that, whatever their strange habits and skin colour, they are not so different in their hopes, fears and dreams than our own, so that maybe we can appreciate a common humanity.
Although in reality what happens is one flies for three hours to stay in a IHG or Hilton, drinking Starbucks and eating at Nando's or McDonald's.

There's lots of local culture in the UAE, but you won't see it staying at the Raffles and visiting the Mall of the Emirates.

We see it in reverse too, the Chinese will fly halfway around the world to go and buy a handbag from a shopping mall just by junction 9 of the M40.
 

12LDA28C

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We see it in reverse too, the Chinese will fly halfway around the world to go and buy a handbag from a shopping mall just by junction 9 of the M40.

I'm sure that's not the only reason the Chinese visit the UK as it would seem rather a false economy to pay a substantial air fare to save a few quid on some 'luxury' items. And that seems to be happening less now anyway as visitor numbers to Bicester Village are currently down 20% year-on-year.
 

Bantamzen

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Would local economies actually lose that much?

Zoom, as much as anything else, has been the driver in the reduction of business travel. I see it in my line of work- pre-Covid people had to travel to see us, and now they will stay at home and attend meetings with us via Teams or Zoom. We get what we want, they get what they want, and nobody's had to fly for six hours to get it; the economy will do just fine.

A reduction in aviation may reduce tourism but the tourism benefit to actual local economies isn't as clear cut as you'd think. Lots of tourists go to the Canary Islands or Barcelona but the money doesn't stay in the local economy and doesn't benefit the local people, which is why we are seeing so many protests about over-tourism.

Tourism itself also has a significant environmental impact, as we are seeing with the chronic water shortages in the Balearics and in Murcia and Andalusia.

That's not to say we should all stay at home and holiday in the next village, but "oh the economy" isn't quite the gotcha you seem to think it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
A quick search online reveals that in 2023 the aviation industry alone was worth $762 billion alone. Add around $7.7 trillion in tourism and you start to get a feeling of just how much tourism is really worth.

I've not searched how many jobs globally this all supports but I'm guessing in the hundreds of millions. So yeah, it really is a gotcha...
 

Dr Hoo

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A quick search online reveals that in 2023 the aviation industry alone was worth $762 billion alone. Add around $7.7 trillion in tourism and you start to get a feeling of just how much tourism is really worth.

I've not searched how many jobs globally this all supports but I'm guessing in the hundreds of millions. So yeah, it really is a gotcha...
I find it very strange that in a country (GB) suffering acute staff shortages in many professions - rail, NHS, care, teaching, hospitality, etc. - such that many people are encouraged to immigrate either temporarily or permanently; the fact that aviation (and tourism) ‘ties up’ many evidently able people, willing to work irregular hours, in customer-facing roles and so on is seen as a ‘good thing’.
 

Chester1

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I'm glad to see a balanced view on the subject, if for no other reason that some of the more hysterical voices out there are driving ordinary people away from believing that humanity actually has any meaningful impact on the environment. For some reason some environmentalists proclaiming the end of the world inside a few decades can't seem to understand the cynicism of many when meteorologists can't tell them exactly what the weather will be next Tuesday. (BTW this isn't a criticism of them, I do actually watch the Met Offices' more detailed daily and weekly forecasts on their YouTube channel so understand the complexity of getting an accurate forecast)

Its clear we need to make changes both to our energy production, storage and use, as well as consider some social issues to prevent population explosions and that these are issues the whole world need issue. But what is also needed is clear, calm heads to work towards sustainable, and viable long term solutions, even if those solutions take a long time. The world isn't going to come crashing to an end because Mr & Mrs Smith take the kids on holiday to Spain.

One last thing here, I might be a bit of an outlier but I actually enjoy the whole experience of flying. OK sometimes I get mildly irritated with long queues, or people not listening to security when loading the trays, but I love getting onto a craft, that surge of power as you thrust down the runway, having a cheeky glass of wine whilst chatting to fellow passengers. Man, I need to book another trip soon!!

Part of the problem is that the people who shout loudest about climate change are always setting completely unrealistic targets. Just Stop Oil trap ambulances in traffic jams as part of a campaign to decarbonise by 2030. Somewhere there exists a photograph of me at University with a placard saying five years to save the planet. Those five years expired ten years ago. There will be people from then who didn't grow up and are holding up placards that we have until 2030 to save the planet.... Climate change is a big problem but the UK has a really good record with climate targets. Even under a Tory government we virtually removed coal from our energy supply and replaced it with wind power in 14 years. EVs are becoming well established, three new electric steel furnances are being built to replace our last blast furnaces and there is some movement on heating that will hopefully speed up under the new government.
 

DustyBin

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In the 1850s, the American Eunice Foote experimented with water vapour and carbon dioxide (CO2) and discovered that the latter caused the temperature to rise. She came to the conclusion that ‘an atmosphere containing this gas would give our earth a high temperature’. Only a few years later John Tyndall researched the natural greenhouse effect and identified other greenhouse gases in addition to CO2. And he links fluctuations in the CO2 concentration to the ice ages.

Even before the end of the 19th century, Svante Arrhenius mentions for the first time that humans are increasing the CO2 content of the atmosphere. The Swedish chemist researched the warming effect of carbon dioxide and its concentration in the Earth's atmosphere.

The principles of all these old measurements and experiments are still largely correct and reproducible today. However, more precise calculations can now be made using modern measuring methods. So the problem a hundred years ago was not a lack of understanding, but a lack of measuring points and accuracy.

An interesting history lesson, however it does nothing to support your assertion that the science is irrefutable. I'll not quote the entire article as it's too lengthy, but in regard to Arrhenius specifically:

And indeed, Svante Arrhenius supported the idea that changes in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration are the cause of the changes in temperature. Arrhenius (Citation1896) stated:

Conversations with my friend and colleague Professor Högbom […] led me to make a preliminary estimate of the probable effect of a variation of the atmospheric carbonic acid on the temperature of the earth. As this estimation led to the belief that one might in this way probably find an explanation for temperature variations of 5–10 °C, I worked out the calculation more in detail and lay it now before the public and the critics. (p. 267)

However, recent studies, based on palaeoclimatic and modern instrumental data, have questioned Arrhenius’s hypothesis and suggested that the causality relationship between temperature and CO2 could be opposite to this hypothesis, i.e. temperature variation could be the cause and variation in CO2 concentration could be the effect. A convincing explanation about why, in the long run, change in temperature leads and change in CO₂ concentration follows has been given by Roe (Citation2006), who demonstrated that in the Quaternary it is the effect of Milanković cycles (Milanković Citation1935, Citation1941, Citation1998) rather than of atmospheric CO₂ concentration that explains the glaciation process. Specifically, he found that variations in atmospheric CO₂ appear to lag the rate of change of global ice volume. This implies only a secondary role for CO₂ – variations in which produce a weaker radiative forcing than the orbitally‐induced changes in summertime insolation – in driving changes in global ice volume. (Roe Citation2006; see also Koutsoyiannis Citation2019, Koutsoyiannis and Kundzewicz Citation2020; and references therein). (p. 1)

As for the recent changes, Koutsoyiannis et al. (Citation2022a, Citation2022b, Citation2023b) developed a stochastic methodology for detecting potential causal links and, using modern instrumental data of temperature and CO₂ concentration for the last 65 years, they concluded that temperature change is a potential cause of CO₂ concentration change while causality in the opposite direction can be excluded as violating a necessary condition of causality. This result is opposite to the common belief that in the recent decades human CO₂ emissions are the cause of CO₂ and temperature increase.


So no, the basics are not complicated at all. Only the lies denying it get more complicated, because the facts don't support it and therefore some distraction is needed.

It looks decidedly complicated to me (and seemingly a large number of experts)!

These lies were/are pushed by fossil fuel companies:

Misled

Of course the fossil fuel industry has a vested interest, that's not really surprising. It doesn't however alter the fact that climate catastrophisers are desperate to be proven "correct", and are equally as guilty of ignoring contradictory evidence.

Someone who starts to mix up weather and climate should perhaps hold back on the subject of climate change.

Other than when convenient....

A bit cooler than it should be, or maybe just average for the time of year? That will be the weather, it's unpredictable you see.... Warmer than usual? Global boiling, aka climate change of course!!! ;)
 

bahnause

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Congrasts, you found a one of the less than 3% of climate deniers in science. Unfortuntately for you, it is Koutsoyiannis, whose mistakes in his research have been adressed many times before. So here a short version regarding his basic theory, that a natural rise in temperature causen the rise in CO2:

His theory of the inversion of cause and effect fails the basic "sniff test". He has to have a plausible physical explanation for why a less than 1C change in ocean temperatures in the last 100 years would cause the atmospheric CO2 concentration to jump from 280 PPM to above 400 PPM. He doesn't even adress this issue properly. “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” , but he produces no evidence. There is also a thing called "Granger causality". I forgot how it works exactly, it's too long ago since studying this topic. But it basically determines wether one data set is useful in forecasting another. And in the case of CO2 and temperature it only works in one direction. You can predict the rise in temperature based on the rise of CO2 in the atmosphere, but it doesn't wor the other way round.

By the way, one of the most common problems with all the deniers is this: They don't agree or in most cases don't even offer an alternative explanation for what's happening.
A bit cooler than it should be, or maybe just average for the time of year? That will be the weather, it's unpredictable you see.... Warmer than usual? Global boiling, aka climate change of course!!! ;)
Exactly one week ago we had the hottest recorded day on Earth. Maybe that doesn't count, because it wasn't in your backyard.
 

DustyBin

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Congrasts, you found a one of the less than 3% of climate deniers in science. Unfortuntately for you, it is Koutsoyiannis, whose mistakes in his research have been adressed many times before. So here a short version regarding his basic theory, that a natural rise in temperature causen the rise in CO2:

His theory of the inversion of cause and effect fails the basic "sniff test". He has to have a plausible physical explanation for why a less than 1C change in ocean temperatures in the last 100 years would cause the atmospheric CO2 concentration to jump from 280 PPM to above 400 PPM. He doesn't even adress this issue properly. “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” , but he produces no evidence. There is also a thing called "Granger causality". I forgot how it works exactly, it's too long ago since studying this topic. But it basically determines wether one data set is useful in forecasting another. And in the case of CO2 and temperature it only works in one direction. You can predict the rise in temperature based on the rise of CO2 in the atmosphere, but it doesn't wor the other way round.

Your constant use of the term "climate denier" (which is a nonsensical term in any case) is telling....

I chose Koutsoyiannis randomly, there are however plenty of others (do you have a source for "less than 3%" incidentally?).

Regardless, you appear to fundamentally misunderstand the theory presented in the linked article. The jump from circa 300ppm to over 400ppm is acknowledged and may well be anthropogenic (i.e. the result of human activity). The theory is that CO2 remains a trace gas in the atmosphere with limited if any ability to alter the earths temperature, with water vapour being the main driver of the "greenhouse effect".

Whether this is correct or not I couldn't say, but where you see "climate denial" I see valuable research and discussion around a hugely complex subject.

By the way, one of the most common problems with all the deniers is this: They don't agree or in most cases don't even offer an alternative explanation for what's happening.

So what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't subscribe to your "case closed" dogma is a denier? That sounds rather anti-science to me!

Exactly one week ago we had the hottest recorded day on Earth. Maybe that doesn't count, because it wasn't in your backyard.

Hottest recorded indeed.... Alas, the weather (or is it climatic conditions?) in this part of the world continues to buck the trend, unfortunately!
 

bahnause

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Your constant use of the term "climate denier" (which is a nonsensical term in any case) is telling....

I chose Koutsoyiannis randomly, there are however plenty of others (do you have a source for "less than 3%" incidentally?).
Do scientists agree on climate change?
Regardless, you appear to fundamentally misunderstand the theory presented in the linked article. The jump from circa 300ppm to over 400ppm is acknowledged and may well be anthropogenic (i.e. the result of human activity). The theory is that CO2 remains a trace gas in the atmosphere with limited if any ability to alter the earths temperature, with water vapour being the main driver of the "greenhouse effect".
No, I haven't The study you cited is very similar and based on his former studies, where he uses short term data points to "prove" that CO2 follows temperature (he obviously fails to do that). So, why isn't vapour a a main driver of the greehouse effect? Easy answer: Because it is a very short term thing. Water vapour differs in one crucial way from other greenhouse gases. Those other greenhouse gases are always gases (at least when they’re in our atmosphere). Water is not. It can turn from a gas to a liquid at temperatures and pressures very common in our atmosphere, and so it frequently does. When it’s colder it falls from the air as rain or snow, when it’s hotter it evaporates and rises up as a gas again. Let's souble the amount of vapour in our atmosphere. Will this cause global warming? No, it won't, after around three weeks, all the vapour will be gone. The excess water would rain/snow down. It does play a part in a positive feedback loop (in a warmer atmosphere, mor vapour can be hold), but it is not the driver. CO2 is the driver.
So what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't subscribe to your "case closed" dogma is a denier? That sounds rather anti-science to me!
Yes, exactly that. But it is not anti science at all. The problem is, all the theories disputing it aren't science at all. They try to give the appearance of a scientific controversy where there is none.
 
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spyinthesky

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The temperatures have been on an upward trend long before humans joined the party and I’m sure we are not helping that trend either.
Our long term future is bleak with or without us. Polar ice caps are not the norm during the earth’s history.
But hey, we can always go and live on a planet that might have had water 200 million years ago.
We might just be able to exist if our species evolves but then we will probably wipe ourselves out due to the inability to grow food and the strongest will survive a few hundred years longer.
Nobody is getting me on a guilt trip. ‘It’s my party, and I’ll cry if I want to’
 

DustyBin

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Thanks, but that article is simply parroting a baseless claim made by Obama (IIRC). It sounds good though which was the point!

No, I haven't The study you cited is very similar and based on his former studies, where he uses short term data points to "prove" that CO2 follows temperature (he obviously fails to do that). So, why isn't vapour a a main driver of the greehouse effect? Easy answer: Because it is a very short term thing. Water vapour differs in one crucial way from other greenhouse gases. Those other greenhouse gases are always gases (at least when they’re in our atmosphere). Water is not. It can turn from a gas to a liquid at temperatures and pressures very common in our atmosphere, and so it frequently does. When it’s colder it falls from the air as rain or snow, when it’s hotter it evaporates and rises up as a gas again. Let's souble the amount of vapour in our atmosphere. Will this cause global warming? No, it won't, after around three weeks, all the vapour will be gone. The excess water would rain/snow down. It does play a part in a positive feedback loop (in a warmer atmosphere, mor vapour can be hold), but it is not the driver. CO2 is the driver.

His theory hasn’t been debunked in the way you’re suggesting. It hasn’t been proven to be correct either of course, and that’s my point; research is ongoing. Whilst climate catastrophisers believe they have it all figured out, they almost certainly don’t.

Yes, exactly that. But it is not anti science at all. The problem is, all the theories disputing it aren't science at all. They try to give the appearance of a scientific controversy where there is none.

As above, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
 

Cross City

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Ryanair get you there. You may land sideways, on the wrong runway at the wrong airport, but their On Time Jingle still goes off, even with a tail strike and collapsed landing gear.

Ryanair are by far the safest and most on-time airline in the world.
 

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bahnause

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Thanks, but that article is simply parroting a baseless claim made by Obama (IIRC). It sounds good though which was the point!
The consensus is nearly unanimous these days:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change
In 2017, James L. Powell analyzed five surveys of the peer-reviewed literature from 1991 to 2015, and found that they amounted to a combined 54,195 articles, few of which had outright rejected anthropogenic climate change, resulting in an average consensus of 99.94%. In November 2019, his survey of over 11,600 peer-reviewed articles published in the first seven months of 2019 showed that the consensus had reached 100%.

In 2021, Krista Myers led a paper which surveyed 2780 Earth scientists. Depending on expertise, between 91% (all scientists) to 100% (climate scientists with high levels of expertise, 20+ papers published) agreed human activity is causing climate change. Among the total group of climate scientists, 98.7% agreed. The agreement was lowest among scientists who chose Economic Geology as one of their fields of research (84%).

Also in 2021, a team led by Mark Lynas had found 80,000 climate-related studies published between 2012 and 2020, and chose to analyse a random subset of 3000. Four of these were skeptical of the human cause of climate change, 845 were endorsing the human cause perspective at different levels, and 1869 were indifferent to the question. The authors estimated the proportion of papers not skeptical of the human cause as 99.85% (95% confidence limit 99.62%–99.96%). Excluding papers which took no position on the human cause led to an estimate of the proportion of consensus papers as 99.53% (95% confidence limit 98.80%–99.87%). They confirmed their numbers by explicitly looking for alternative hypotheses in the entire dataset, which resulted in 28 papers.
 

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