Does anybody not fly?

[Chester1]

People who post about regular European trips by train might as well say in their post that they are retired. It is just not viable for working people to spend two days travelling in each direction.

In previous threads people have told me that I shouldn't see my brother (across the Atlantic) and my Mrs shouldn't see any of her family (in Asia) because of the environmental damage. Presumably if or when we have children they must grow up never meeting any of their aunts or uncles or cousins in person. It just made me want to make the most of flying incase environmentalists succeed in stopping flights one day.

I was involved in climate change stuff at University, based on the science 15 years ago we are now well past the point of no return. The problem with pushing worst case scenarios all the time is you desensitise people. I will pay more for low or no carbon alternatives but I draw the line at staying put. It's been very clear that voters in western world generally buy into green transition but won't tolerate drastic measures. If that'd not enough to save the planet then my visiting my brother won't move the dial!

 

[DustyBin]

People who post about regular European trips by train might as well say in their post that they are retired. It is just not viable for working people to spend two days travelling in each direction.

In previous threads people have told me that I shouldn't see my brother (across the Atlantic) and my Mrs shouldn't see any of her family (in Asia) because of the environmental damage. Presumably if or when we have children they must grow up never meeting any of their aunts or uncles or cousins in person. It just made me want to make the most of flying incase environmentalists succeed in stopping flights one day.

I was involved in climate change stuff at University, based on the science 15 years ago we are now well past the point of no return. The problem with pushing worst case scenarios all the time is you desensitise people. I will pay more for low or no carbon alternatives but I draw the line at staying put. It's been very clear that voters in western world generally buy into green transition but won't tolerate drastic measures. If that'd not enough to save the planet then my visiting my brother won't move the dial!

How dare you post such sense when the oceans are boiling!

On a serious note, the problem is that climate change is yet another subject where the extremists (on both sides of the debate) are shrieking the loudest.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

I don’t, I just don‘t like air travel, my way to get around is either ferry, rail, or keep it in England

 

[Krokodil]

People who post about regular European trips by train might as well say in their post that they are retired.

I'm not retired, a long way from it. I work full time.

It is just not viable for working people to spend two days travelling in each direction.

Don't travel by day then. Travel by night. Then you don't waste days. There is a fantastic network of sleeper trains across Europe. Much more civilised than dragging oneself out of bed for a red-eye flight.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Don't travel by day then. Travel by night. Then you don't waste days. There is a fantastic network of sleeper trains across Europe. Much more civilised than dragging oneself out of bed for a red-eye flight.

Sharing a cabin with up to five other strangers is many things, but the one thing it is not is civilised.

 

[MisterSheeps]

my goal is to visit it by rail this year

I did it once with a girlfriend who hated flying; we got the Hull to Zeebrugge ferry, walked out the terminal (not pleasant, no other public transport) to the coast tram, took this to Ostende, stayed overnight, then train via Rotterdam to Berlin. Came back via Rotterdam and ferry to Hull from there. The journey was fascinating, especially across the Rhine, and beyond Wolfsburg where you cross the old DDR border and go through rural scenery with decaying remnants of old communist era industry dotted about, then get to the outskirts of Berlin where it becomes urban again. For anyone who has seen iconic WW2 film footage it is like a lesson in history come alive. I suspect flying does not convey such a slow burn buildup.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not retired, a long way from it. I work full time.


Don't travel by day then. Travel by night. Then you don't waste days. There is a fantastic network of sleeper trains across Europe. Much more civilised than dragging oneself out of bed for a red-eye flight.

I can't sleep properly on sleeper trains and have tried them several times. I don't wish to feel like a zombie the day after again. That really limits options for a decent holiday somewhere warm. I don't think I am unusual.

 

[JGurney]

People who post about regular European trips by train might as well say in their post that they are retired. It is just not viable for working people to spend two days travelling in each direction.

I am not retired so of course I am not going to pretend that I am. My wife is retired now, but we made several rail trips to parts of Europe while she was still at work.

Clearly spending two days travelling is not viable to you, and so you don't do it, but asserting that no-one else in work does is inaccurate.

For us, it is viable because it is part of the holiday, while flying is boring and uncomfortable. E.g. last time we went to Austria we sailed overnight from Harwich to Hook of Holland, went to Amsterdam and spent the day looking round then got the sleeper to Linz and a local train to Bad Ischl.

The overnight ferry was enjoyable in itself (people pay to spend days on end on cruise ships), a day around Amsterdam was definitely part of the holiday and the sleeper is also something we both enjoy. Basically going that way meant the holiday started at Manningtree while if we had flown it would not have started until we got out of whichever airport we arrived at.

I agee that this sort of holidaying will not suit everyone, but it does suit us, and clearly some others here

 

[Chester1]

I am not retired so of course I am not going to pretend that I am. My wife is retired now, but we made several rail trips to parts of Europe while she was still at work.

Clearly spending two days travelling is not viable to you, and so you don't do it, but asserting that no-one else in work does is inaccurate.

For us, it is viable because it is part of the holiday, while flying is boring and uncomfortable. E.g. last time we went to Austria we sailed overnight from Harwich to Hook of Holland, went to Amsterdam and spent the day looking round then got the sleeper to Linz and a local train to Bad Ischl.

The overnight ferry was enjoyable in itself (people pay to spend days on end on cruise ships), a day around Amsterdam was definitely part of the holiday and the sleeper is also something we both enjoy. Basically going that way meant the holiday started at Manningtree while if we had flown it would not have started until we got out of whichever airport we arrived at.

I agee that this sort of holidaying will not suit everyone, but it does suit us, and clearly some others here

I might have exaggerated but it's the general trend that people who travel around Europe by train without flying are not time sensitive and most working people are.

Even when long distance train travel is viable it's often not financially viable. I look at the cost of going to Marseille in October before half term, for a week. From North West England to Marseille by train was £958 for two people. The same dates are £256 by plane. I had a week in Marseille booked in summer 2020 that had to be cancelled. The direct Eurostar service was a fraction of the price at a more popular time of year.

 

[zero]

For us, it is viable because it is part of the holiday, while flying is boring and uncomfortable. E.g. last time we went to Austria we sailed overnight from Harwich to Hook of Holland, went to Amsterdam and spent the day looking round then got the sleeper to Linz and a local train to Bad Ischl.

The overnight ferry was enjoyable in itself (people pay to spend days on end on cruise ships), a day around Amsterdam was definitely part of the holiday and the sleeper is also something we both enjoy. Basically going that way meant the holiday started at Manningtree while if we had flown it would not have started until we got out of whichever airport we arrived at.

For me, the issue is while I have taken that ferry and Eurostar many times, there aren't many other options for getting out of the UK, and I don't particularly like visiting Amsterdam (or Brussels or Paris).

Yes the first time I did the Hook ferry, I enjoyed starting the holiday at Ipswich, but if I do go that way again it will just feel like a slog until I get to somewhere new.

The first few times I went to Germany / Austria by train I also stopped off at Brussels, Liege, Aachen, Duesseldorf etc and spent parts of the trip in those places. But having to go that way every time in the future would also make me feel like the holiday doesn't start until I arrive at my destination.

In contrast if I can find an option to fly to/from a UK airport which I haven't flown to/from before, exploring the public transport options to get to that airport would feel part of the holiday - one of my goals is to use as many UK airports as I can but I won't take an unneeded flight just for the sake of using a new airport.

 

[Chester1]

For me, the issue is while I have taken that ferry and Eurostar many times, there aren't many other options for getting out of the UK, and I don't particularly like visiting Amsterdam (or Brussels or Paris).

Yes the first time I did the Hook ferry, I enjoyed starting the holiday at Ipswich, but if I do go that way again it will just feel like a slog until I get to somewhere new.

The first few times I went to Germany / Austria by train I also stopped off at Brussels, Liege, Aachen, Duesseldorf etc and spent parts of the trip in those places. But having to go that way every time in the future would also make me feel like the holiday doesn't start until I arrive at my destination.

In contrast if I can find an option to fly to/from a UK airport which I haven't flown to/from before, exploring the public transport options to get to that airport would feel part of the holiday - one of my goals is to use as many UK airports as I can but I won't take an unneeded flight just for the sake of using a new airport.

The repetitiveness is certainly an issue. I did a fair bit on not flying holidays in Europe in my 20s. I have been to Paris, Brussels, Bruges, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Aachen, Cologne and even Berlin without flying. I have few options left for a mini break or longer holidays that avoid sleeper trains. I risked sleeper trains in my mid 20s but I am in my mid 30s now and just can't handle the loss of sleep as well as I could 10 years ago. Add offspring into the mix in the near future and they are an absolute no go for me.

 

[Krokodil]

Sharing a cabin with up to five other strangers is many things, but the one thing it is not is civilised.

Sole occupancy is an option. Not forgetting the Caledonian Doubles and the likes of VSOE if you really want to splash the cash.

Even a berth on a Romanian couchette (been there, done that) is more civilised than a red-eye flight with certain low-cost airlines. Getting up at stupid o'clock, being fleeced for any luggage large enough to carry a small mouse, decanting all liquids into suitable containers...

I might have exaggerated but it's the general trend that people who travel around Europe by train without flying are not time sensitive and most working people are.

Or maybe the journey is part of the holiday for us. All the places you can visit en route. I am likely to be heading to Italy next year for a family wedding. I look forward to dinner at Le Train Bleu, waking up in Nice, and then having the chance to also explore Monaco and Genoa on the way to Florence. Might even have time to visit Naples afterwards.

I went to Bosnia a couple of years ago to photograph the remaining steam activity there. If I'd just flown to Tuzla and back, I would never have enjoyed the experiences I had on the way. Being invited to lunch with a random Croatian smallholder and his mother, seeing the beauty of Zagreb, popping into Switzerland (can't get enough of the place).

 

[AlbertBeale]

People who post about regular European trips by train might as well say in their post that they are retired. It is just not viable for working people to spend two days travelling in each direction.

In previous threads people have told me that I shouldn't see my brother (across the Atlantic) and my Mrs shouldn't see any of her family (in Asia) because of the environmental damage. Presumably if or when we have children they must grow up never meeting any of their aunts or uncles or cousins in person. It just made me want to make the most of flying incase environmentalists succeed in stopping flights one day.

I was involved in climate change stuff at University, based on the science 15 years ago we are now well past the point of no return. The problem with pushing worst case scenarios all the time is you desensitise people. I will pay more for low or no carbon alternatives but I draw the line at staying put. It's been very clear that voters in western world generally buy into green transition but won't tolerate drastic measures. If that'd not enough to save the planet then my visiting my brother won't move the dial!

Most people I know who have normal job commitments only ever use trains/ferries within Europe. It's perfectly viable to do so - it's a matter of choice not to.

I am not retired so of course I am not going to pretend that I am. My wife is retired now, but we made several rail trips to parts of Europe while she was still at work.

Clearly spending two days travelling is not viable to you, and so you don't do it, but asserting that no-one else in work does is inaccurate.

For us, it is viable because it is part of the holiday, while flying is boring and uncomfortable. E.g. last time we went to Austria we sailed overnight from Harwich to Hook of Holland, went to Amsterdam and spent the day looking round then got the sleeper to Linz and a local train to Bad Ischl.

The overnight ferry was enjoyable in itself (people pay to spend days on end on cruise ships), a day around Amsterdam was definitely part of the holiday and the sleeper is also something we both enjoy. Basically going that way meant the holiday started at Manningtree while if we had flown it would not have started until we got out of whichever airport we arrived at.

I agee that this sort of holidaying will not suit everyone, but it does suit us, and clearly some others here

Exactly - and flying manages to be both boring and hassle-filled; surface travel is almost always pleasant and relaxing.

 

[Chester1]

Or maybe the journey is part of the holiday for us. All the places you can visit en route. I am likely to be heading to Italy next year for a family wedding. I look forward to dinner at Le Train Bleu, waking up in Nice, and then having the chance to also explore Monaco and Genoa on the way to Florence. Might even have time to visit Naples afterwards.

I went to Bosnia a couple of years ago to photograph the remaining steam activity there. If I'd just flown to Tuzla and back, I would never have enjoyed the experiences I had on the way. Being invited to lunch with a random Croatian smallholder and his mother, seeing the beauty of Zagreb, popping into Switzerland (can't get enough of the place).

Passenger numbers show that an overwhelming majority of people do not share your view. Plenty of flights are not at 6am and yes flying involves hassle but the journey is ussually over by lunchtime. I like train journeys but not super long ones and multiple changes.

Most people I know who have normal job commitments only ever use trains/ferries within Europe. It's perfectly viable to do so - it's a matter of choice not to.



Exactly - and flying manages to be both boring and hassle-filled; surface travel is almost always pleasant and relaxing.

Enjoying two days of overland travel is a niche interest. It's not remotely normal and this is clear demonstrated by passenger numbers. If it floats your boat then good for you but I will be flying to Spain, Italy and Greece!

Most people who don't fly simply don't leave the UK and many of them don't like visiting foreign places.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Passenger numbers show that an overwhelming majority of people do not share your view. Plenty of flights are not at 6am and yes flying involves hassle but the journey is ussually over by lunchtime. I like train journeys but not super long ones and multiple changes.



Enjoying two days of overland travel is a niche interest. It's not remotely normal and this is clear demonstrated by passenger numbers. If it floats your boat then good for you but I will be flying to Spain, Italy and Greece!

Most people who don't fly simply don't leave the UK and many of them don't like visiting foreign places.

I don't think that preferring that our planet remains reasonably viable as a home for our species is a niche interest...

 

[Chester1]

I don't think that preferring that our planet remains reasonably viable as a home for our species is a niche interest...

Obsessing over it is a niche interest. There are some people for whom it is the centre of their world view and others who think man made climate change is a conspiracy. Everyone else is just trying to get on with their life and is receptive to measures that don't change their lifestyle.

By far the most common reason for not flying is a lack of interest in visiting other countries, not environmental concerns.

 

[DustyBin]

Obsessing over it is a niche interest. There are some people for whom it is the centre of their world view and others who think man made climate change is a conspiracy. Everyone else is just trying to get on with their life and is receptive to measures that don't change their lifestyle.

By far the most common reason for not flying is a lack of interest in visiting other countries, not environmental concerns.

Exactly. As I said previously, it’s yet another debate dominated by those with extreme views.

 

[Chester1]

Exactly. As I said previously, it’s yet another debate dominated by those with extreme views.

One aspect I find interesting is how little views on climate change effect decision making. The vast majority of 30 somethings with apocalyptic views on climate change are still having children. If they really believe the planet will be basically uninhabitable in 2100 would they really be having children who will be in their 70s then?

 

[Dr Hoo]

One aspect I find interesting is how little views on climate change effect decision making. The vast majority of 30 somethings with apocalyptic views on climate change are still having children. If they really believe the planet will be basically uninhabitable in 2100 would they really be having children who will be in their 70s then?

That’s an interesting claim. Can you provide a link or source for the research that discovered that?
I’m not sure that I personally know any 30-somethings with ‘apocalyptic views on climate change’ (or having large families for that matter - another current thread on fertility rates is running).

 

[MisterSheeps]

My main reason for not going far by train now in Europe is that it now holds little interest for me ... whisked at high speed in closeted air conditioned airline like ambience, difficult to see a view, the European express rail experience (inc UK) is now almost a slow version of flying. Far less flexible ticketing, fixed reservations, high prices, and it is consequently less pleasant. I am happy i knew European rail when it was compartments behind locos, or slow winding rural lines. I find it difficult to understand journalists who argue for slow travel but catch Eurostar. Sure get the Nice - Digne, Corsica, former FEVE along the north Spanish coast, Swiss valley to valley lines (e.g. Golden Pass), or lines through the Massif Centrale, but you might as well fly to get to them.

 

[12LDA28C]

Most people I know who have normal job commitments only ever use trains/ferries within Europe. It's perfectly viable to do so - it's a matter of choice not to.

I'd like to know how travel by trains and ferries is remotely viable for a long weekend away in say Venice, Budapest or any other popular European destination that doesn't have a direct link to the UK via ferry or Eurostar. Spending unnecessary hours travelling to a destination is just hugely inconvenient. I'm not a big fan of flying but I'll put up with it for the convenience of getting there in four or five hours. Another thing extremely irksome about climate-change extremists is their arrogance, piousness and holier-than-thou attitude towards anyone who dares to drive an ICE car or take a few flights a year. Let people enjoy their lives.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I'd like to know how travel by trains and ferries is remotely viable for a long weekend away in say Venice, Budapest or any other popular European destination that doesn't have a direct link to the UK via ferry or Eurostar. Spending unnecessary hours travelling to a destination is just hugely inconvenient. I'm not a big fan of flying but I'll put up with it for the convenience of getting there in four or five hours. Another thing extremely irksome about climate-change extremists is their arrogance, piousness and holier-than-thou attitude towards anyone who dares to drive an ICE car or take a few flights a year. Let people enjoy their lives.

If I went for a weekend in Venice I'd consider it a selfish indulgence, and would never do so. What you consider inconvenient others find perfectly convenient. The science of climate change is pretty clear - understanding that and acting on that basis isn't in the slightest bit "extreme" - it's just rational. I consider those who think it right to put the future of others at risk for their own indulgence are the arrogant ones. I do of course understand that, psychologically, some people find it hard to put wider interests before their own.

 

[Zamracene749]

Edited. I posted a comment trying to get across that we all of us are guilty to some extent of wasteful and environmentally damaging behaviour, flying is just one example. But it's just too inflammatory(sorry) a subject.
Back on topic, I hate flying. As a fat bloke, the experience is as horrible for me as it is for whomsoever happens to get the middle seat beside me. Many of my flights I spend in moderately painful discomfort, trying my best not to impinge on my fellow passengers space.
If only the original concept of the channel tunnel hadn't been strangled in customs and political red tape. Boarding in Durham, waking up somewher in France, supper in Italy, Prague, Seville. Ah well!

 

[Krokodil]

Passenger numbers show that an overwhelming majority of people do not share your view.

No the figures don't show that. Correlation does not prove causation.

Passenger numbers show that lots of people fly. That says nothing about whether they enjoy the experience, or whether they're just tolerating it because it is cheap and/or quick. Eurostar capacity is particularly finite at the moment so you can't say that people wouldn’t take the train if it were available as an option (particularly if in some alternate reality the likes of Flixtrain started running cheap, no-frills trains into St Pancras).

By far the most common reason for not flying is a lack of interest in visiting other countries, not environmental concerns.

Which is ironic, given that by flying you miss out quite a few countries by passing over them. We visited Bratislava on a whim. On our way to Budapest (where we had a day's sightseeing on the way to Bucharest) we were running alongside the Danube and noticed just how close Slovakia was to our route and decided to go via there on our way back.

My main reason for not going far by train now in Europe is that it now holds little interest for me ... whisked at high speed in closeted air conditioned airline like ambience, difficult to see a view

I can definitely recommend heading into Eastern Europe for some 'proper trains'. As well as sampling the Swiss narrow gauge, which often has opening windows on even modern units.

I'd like to know how travel by trains and ferries is remotely viable for a long weekend away in say Venice, Budapest or any other popular European destination that doesn't have a direct link to the UK via ferry or Eurostar.

Before the pandemic it would certainly have been possible for a Londoner to do Venice via sleeper from Paris. The lack of international sleepers from London is a nuisance though.

 

[12LDA28C]

If I went for a weekend in Venice I'd consider it a selfish indulgence, and would never do so. What you consider inconvenient others find perfectly convenient. The science of climate change is pretty clear - understanding that and acting on that basis isn't in the slightest bit "extreme" - it's just rational. I consider those who think it right to put the future of others at risk for their own indulgence are the arrogant ones. I do of course understand that, psychologically, some people find it hard to put wider interests before their own.

There really are more important things to concern yourself with relating to climate change than people making a few short-haul flights per year.

However, you'll be pleased to learn that my offspring won't be contributing in any way to the impending demise of Planet Earth, so I'm 'doing my bit' for climate change in other ways.

 

[Butts]

If I went for a weekend in Venice I'd consider it a selfish indulgence, and would never do so. What you consider inconvenient others find perfectly convenient. The science of climate change is pretty clear - understanding that and acting on that basis isn't in the slightest bit "extreme" - it's just rational. I consider those who think it right to put the future of others at risk for their own indulgence are the arrogant ones. I do of course understand that, psychologically, some people find it hard to put wider interests before their own.

I dread to feel what you would consider a UK Domestic flight to be then ?

The sooner you realise that an Embraer is a "Train Slayer" the better.

Perhaps your climate anxiety would be better directed at BRIC Nations and the USA not some poor chap that wants to get from Inverness to Southampton in a reasonable time ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Exactly - and flying manages to be both boring and hassle-filled; surface travel is almost always pleasant and relaxing.

Airports are not the most pleasant places, but “surface travel is almost always pleasant and relaxing”? Really?

I love a train journey as much as anyone on a train forum, but long-distance rail travel is not relaxing. Certainly not if you have connections to make. And definitely certainly not with DB’s current levels of punctuality.

The science of climate change is pretty clear - understanding that and acting on that basis isn't in the slightest bit "extreme" - it's just rational. I consider those who think it right to put the future of others at risk for their own indulgence are the arrogant ones.

I could never leave the Isle of Man again and, here’s the thing, the carbon it saves would alter precisely nothing about climate change.

The sooner you realise that an Embraer is a "Train Slayer" the better.

When it comes to emissions I’d much rather see Loganair switch entirely to the ATR 42 and ATR 72. When the ERJ135s finally die I think they will. The ATR 72 is incredibly fuel efficient and is actually a pretty comfortable plane for journeys of 1-2 hours.

 

[takno]

Airports are not the most pleasant places, but “surface travel is almost always pleasant and relaxing”? Really?

I love a train journey as much as anyone on a train forum, but long-distance rail travel is not relaxing. Certainly not if you have connections to make. And definitely certainly not with DB’s current levels of punctuality.

I could never leave the Isle of Man again and, here’s the thing, the carbon it saves would alter precisely nothing about climate change.

When it comes to emissions I’d much rather see Loganair switch entirely to the ATR 42 and ATR 72. When the ERJ135s finally die I think they will. The ATR 72 is incredibly fuel efficient and is actually a pretty comfortable plane for journeys of 1-2 hours.

I'd sooner some money was spent on buliding capacity on cross-country, and if the experience there was a guaranteed reasonably comfortable seat for a reasonable price I would probably spend the extra couple of hours to do the domestic journeys by train. Suggesting it's more comfortable than the plane at the moment is delusional though - it's less comfortable, slower, usually more expensive and significantly less reliable to take the train. And that's compared to a flight with a two-hour megabus journey at one end.

I'd certainly appreciate Loganair switching to slightly larger turboprops in place of silly little jets though.

 

[DustyBin]

I'd sooner some money was spent on buliding capacity on cross-country, and if the experience there was a guaranteed reasonably comfortable seat for a reasonable price I would probably spend the extra couple of hours to do the domestic journeys by train. Suggesting it's more comfortable than the plane at the moment is delusional though - it's less comfortable, slower, usually more expensive and significantly less reliable to take the train. And that's compared to a flight with a two-hour megabus journey at one end.

I'd certainly appreciate Loganair switching to slightly larger turboprops in place of silly little jets though.

It’s only in the last three years that I’ve switched to domestic flying. I used to travel between Newcastle and London, Bristol and Aberdeen frequently by train but not anymore; the experience is often an unpleasant one quite frankly.

I’ll confess to rather liking the ERJ135s, whilst accepting they’re not the most efficient!

 

[spyinthesky]

For me air travel is an awful experience and would rather avoid it.
Unless I can fly from Bournemouth or Southampton(which is rare) I am stuck with London airports.
I sometimes drive to Dortmund which takes about 8 hours which is much the same as flying by the time it takes to take off on a plane I will be in Belgium approaching Holland in the car.
I can’t remember the last time my flight took off on time.
The whole preparation of getting on to a plane is awful. The flying bit is fine and then getting out at the other end with a decent amount of luggage it all starts again.
Being amongst so many stressful travellers who are rushing to both get on and off the plane is both funny and irksome.
I have done the journey by train twice which was far more enjoyable than driving or flying but that was in my younger days when time wasn’t as important.