Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[Philip]

But rail cards cannot be post dated so it isn’t a current solution. AFAIK there are no plans to implement it either, so I don’t see the relevance of this suggestion?

It just seems extremely obstructive and pedantic to refuse to sell a ticket for travel in a month or so to someone who states they don’t currently have a railcard but intend to obtain one. We have established you aren’t required to do this - and clearly other ticket offices don’t - so why do you insist on doing it?

You are doing yourself and your colleagues no favours on this thread.

At no point has it been stated by the TOC I work for (or others I'm sure) that we are allowed to give railcard discounts when no railcard is present. During training and in earlier years working for the TOC it was firmly stated that we must check the railcard is in date before applying the discount on any tickets - this used to be a revenue red flag when mystery shoppers came and whilst this hasn't been stressed to us in recent years, they haven't told us that we don't have to check the railcard - it is the TOCs money, not our own. And again there is the issue of consistency between work colleagues.

 

[Haywain]

revenue protection is as well and always has been.

It is not and it never has been.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The worry I have is the TOCs will likely use closure as a way to simply de-staff rather than repurpose staff to more customer focussed roles (which I agree is necessary nowadays).

In reality you want to do both. So you'd move from say 5 staffed ticket windows to 5 TVMs with one or two members of staff providing help at them (give a man a fish and all that).

Small stations of course "lose everything", which to some would be a greater loss.

 

[Philip]

It is not and it never has been.

Yes it has, as was told to us during training and by the TOCs conditions (they also advised us not to offer split tickets in these same conditions).

 

[Bletchleyite]

At no point has it been stated by the TOC I work for (or others I'm sure) that we are allowed to give railcard discounts when no railcard is present. During training and in earlier years working for the TOC it was firmly stated that we must check the railcard is in date before applying the discount on any tickets - this used to be a revenue red flag when mystery shoppers came and whilst this hasn't been stressed to us in recent years, they haven't told us that we don't have to check the railcard - it is the TOCs money, not our own. And again there is the issue of consistency between work colleagues.

The issue is indeed TOC policy, but I'm not sure I'd defend that policy (because it really doesn't make sense to have different policies at different sales channels), simply state that it is policy and that thus it must be followed whether it makes sense or not. Because very often in work you just have to do what your employer says whether you personally like it or not, because they're the ones paying.

 

[ar10642]

The issue is indeed TOC policy, but I'm not sure I'd defend that policy (because it really doesn't make sense to have different policies at different sales channels), simply state that it is policy and that thus it must be followed whether it makes sense or not. Because very often in work you just have to do what your employer says whether you personally like it or not, because they're the ones paying.

That's why this thread was about "the railway" making lives difficult for customers. In this case it very clearly is essentially because "rules is rules" whether they make any sense whatsoever.

 

[43066]

The issue is indeed TOC policy

I’m not sure that’s necessarily true. We are hearing one person’s *interpretation* of TOC policy, whereas that has been contradicted upthread by someone else doing the same job.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure that’s necessarily true. We are hearing one person’s *interpretation* of TOC policy, whereas that has been contradicted upthread by someone else doing the same job.

At I believe a different TOC.

 

[Haywain]

At I believe a different TOC.

I very much hope it's a different TOC!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I have struggled, particularly in Manchester and West Yorkshire I’ve found, with getting a valid railcard added to a ranger where it is permitted and valid, simply because the guard or ticket office clerk believes the ranger to be “enough of a discount as it is”.

This shocks me. I don’t care whether they think the ticket is cheap enough, if it can be sold with a railcard (I know some can’t but I’m referring to ones that can) that’s not for them to decide if a railcard discount is available! Manchester Oxf Road and Leeds have both done this.

 

[Tester]

At I believe a different TOC.

Which once again reinforces the point of the thread. Railcards are generally national - it shouldn't matter to a passenger which TOC happens to operate the most convenient booking office for them.

It is not hard to despair

 

[Philip]

That's why this thread was about "the railway" making lives difficult for customers. In this case it very clearly is essentially because "rules is rules" whether they make any sense whatsoever.

It isn't always 'rules is rules', we use discretion in some areas. For example passengers who have already travelled from manned stations and are sent to the ticket office by RPOs - we generally give them the railcard discount and off peak fare if it is the correct time, to save an argument. Also at the place I work at we all regularly excess singles into returns rather than selling the passenger a new single, as well as excessing TOC specific tickets into any permitted, offering split tickets, offering advance/TOC-specific tickets to passengers before they ask. So for the record we do try to save passengers money in other ways, sometimes not conforming to the letter of the law, that's why it's called discretion.

 

[43066]

At I believe a different TOC.

We don’t know that, and they will all be similar. This thread is becoming a huge argument about one person’s interpretation of what to do in one very specific situation.

 

[Haywain]

by the TOCs conditions (they also advised us not to offer split tickets in these same conditions).

So, it appear that you pick and choose which instructions to follow:

we all regularly ... offering split tickets,

 

[Deafdoggie]

I completely disagree that taking abuse should be considered part & parcel of any customer-facing job. It really isn’t.

The job of staff, in any industry, is to provide a service, not to delight people with unreasonable expectations, or those who simply get a buzz out of picking fights, of which there’s a small contingent who exist and will cause problems no matter how good the member of staff is.

I'm afraid anyone who works with the public will be shouted at. It's far better to know how to deal with it and calm it down than let it escalate to getting hit. Pretending that customer service staff will never be shouted at is raising false promises.

 

[LowLevel]

It isn't always 'rules is rules', we use discretion in some areas. For example passengers who have already travelled from manned stations and are sent to the ticket office by RPOs - we generally give them the railcard discount and off peak fare if it is the correct time, to save an argument. Also at the place I work at we all regularly excess singles into returns rather than selling the passenger a new single, as well as excessing TOC specific tickets into any permitted, offering split tickets, offering advance/TOC-specific tickets to passengers before they ask. So for the record we do try to save passengers money in other ways, sometimes not conforming to the letter of the law, that's why it's called discretion.

And has been pointed out repeatedly though it's not a policy I would stand behind. I could literally stand next to your window and circumvent any of this buying off the Internet or a vending machine.

However I wouldn't go as far as to say further checks to use tickets wouldn't be welcome - I'm sick of finding people who self apply a certain discount which gives a significant reduction whilst not being checked at barriers - they just walk in and out unless they happen to be checked by am inspector. I have not come across a single person applying this discount who is actually entitled to it this year and have taken to immediately requesting revenue protection or police assistance on finding it without the accompanying card. The only good thing is that they invariably pay online and travel regularly so they leave a huge trail of misuse behind them to smack them with a decent prosecution.

In my opinion this particular universal discount, which is legitimately used by a vanishingly small number of people, should either generate mandatory barrier checks or be withdrawn and replaced by a better scheme less open to abuse.

 

[bramling]

I'm afraid anyone who works with the public will be shouted at. It's far better to know how to deal with it and calm it down than let it escalate to getting hit. Pretending that customer service staff will never be shouted at is raising false promises.

There’s numerous ways of dealing with such behaviour besides taking a “customer is always right” attitude. One of which is to simply walk away and leave them to their own devices. Indeed the more staff pander to certain people’s unacceptable behaviour, the more such people feel empowered to do it.

I say again, abusive behaviour is *never* acceptable, and it is *not* part and parcel of a customer-facing role.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It isn't always 'rules is rules', we use discretion in some areas. For example passengers who have already travelled from manned stations and are sent to the ticket office by RPOs - we generally give them the railcard discount and off peak fare if it is the correct time, to save an argument. Also at the place I work at we all regularly excess singles into returns rather than selling the passenger a new single, as well as excessing TOC specific tickets into any permitted, offering split tickets, offering advance/TOC-specific tickets to passengers before they ask. So for the record we do try to save passengers money in other ways, sometimes not conforming to the letter of the law, that's why it's called discretion.

Your argument gets more and more bizarre.
You uphold the pointless insistence of a valid railcard months in advance (sometimes) because you're told to. But do other things you're told not to!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

There’s numerous ways of dealing with such behaviour besides taking a “customer is always right” attitude. One of which is to simply walk away and leave them to their own devices. Indeed the more staff pander to certain people’s unacceptable behaviour, the more such people feel empowered to do it.

I say again, abusive behaviour is *never* acceptable, and it is *not* part and parcel of a customer-facing role.

And walking away from an upset customer will do what? You've accepted they've shouted at you which I said will happen. You walking away will enflame the situation considerably possibly leading to the customer being even more irate with the next member of staff they meet. I wouldn't want colleagues like you, just passing the buck and not dealing with it. Yes, customer service is damn hard work, which is why not everyone is cut out for it, some people would rather walk away than deal with it. That's fine, customer service isn't the job for them. But too many of them remain in it and moan about it. Deal with the customer, resolve it, they'll calm down instead of letting someone else pick up the mess.

 

[Philip]

And has been pointed out repeatedly though it's not a policy I would stand behind. I could literally stand next to your window and circumvent any of this buying off the Internet or a vending machine.

However I wouldn't go as far as to say further checks to use tickets wouldn't be welcome - I'm sick of finding people who self apply a certain discount which gives a significant reduction whilst not being checked at barriers - they just walk in and out unless they happen to be checked by am inspector. I have not come across a single person applying this discount who is actually entitled to it this year and have taken to immediately requesting revenue protection or police assistance on finding it without the accompanying card. The only good thing is that they invariably pay online and travel regularly so they leave a huge trail of misuse behind them to smack them with a decent prosecution.

In my opinion this particular universal discount, which is legitimately used by a vanishingly small number of people, should either generate mandatory barrier checks or be withdrawn and replaced by a better scheme less open to abuse.

It's not really a case of standing behind it, rather just going by something we were taught years ago and have applied in the course of the job ever since. If the TOC issued a brief specifically saying that we could use our discretion and apply the discount in this scenario then I would go along with it as it saves a potential argument and might persuade them not to book online instead.

 

[yorkie]

So, it appear that you pick and choose which instructions to follow:

Indeed; a ticket office offering split tickets is a strict no-no isn't it? I believe it's against impartial retailing rules. Also there is no way @Philip will be able to manually ensure the cheapest combination is generally issued, without using a website that calculates this.

Passengers would also end up with loads of pieces of paper, rather than one document, as issued by split ticket sites.

Of course passengers are entitled to the tickets they ask for but they shouldn't be offered splits unprompted.

Your argument gets more and more bizarre.

Indeed it is absolutely bizarre

And walking away from an upset customer will do what? You've accepted they've shouted at you which I said will happen. You walking away will enflame the situation considerably possibly leading to the customer being even more irate with the next member of staff they meet. I wouldn't want colleagues like you, just passing the buck and not dealing with it. Yes, customer service is damn hard work, which is why not everyone is cut out for it, some people would rather walk away than deal with it. That's fine, customer service isn't the job for them. But too many of them remain in it and moan about it. Deal with the customer, resolve it, they'll calm down instead of letting someone else pick up the mess.

While abuse is unacceptable the reality is that good staff will deploy appropriate techniques to avoid the vast majority of such situations and, where they do occur (as in @LowLevel 's example) they do not escalate.

Being obstructive is certainly getting matters off to a bad start.

It's not really a case of standing behind it, rather just going by something we were taught years ago and have applied in the course of the job ever since. If the TOC issued a brief specifically saying that we could use our discretion and apply the discount in this scenario then I would go along with it as it saves a potential argument and might persuade them not to book online instead.

In all jobs I have done, common sense needs to be applied.

Refusing the sale of an advance ticket unless the Railcard is present is not applying any common sense whatsoever. There is no rule against doing that; it is your own interpretation only.

As someone who frequently buys for other passengers, either as part of a group or simply for other people (e.g. family members etc) having had the refusal of such discounts in the past has inconvenienced me.

However I am no longer inconvenienced as I buy online. I am keen for all ticket types to be sold online so that ticket offices are completely redundant and I am very pleased to see matters progressing in the right direction.

 

[43066]

And walking away from an upset customer will do what? You've accepted they've shouted at you which I said will happen. You walking away will enflame the situation considerably possibly leading to the customer being even more irate with the next member of staff they meet. I wouldn't want colleagues like you, just passing the buck and not dealing with it. Yes, customer service is damn hard work, which is why not everyone is cut out for it, some people would rather walk away than deal with it. That's fine, customer service isn't the job for them. But too many of them remain in it and moan about it. Deal with the customer, resolve it, they'll calm down instead of letting someone else pick up the mess

I think you need to try delivering “customer service” on a few late nights trains full of drunks, rather than in supermarkets…

 

[Deafdoggie]

While abuse is unacceptable the reality is that good staff will deploy appropriate techniques to avoid the vast majority of such situations and, where they do occur (as in @LowLevel 's example) they do not escalate.

Being obstructive is certainly getting matters off to a bad start.

For clarity, it's not acceptable. But, being shouted at is inevitable at some point. Dealing with it correctly is key. LowLevel is, as ever, correct.

 

[LowLevel]

Your argument gets more and more bizarre.
You uphold the pointless insistence of a valid railcard months in advance (sometimes) because you're told to. But do other things you're told not to! The only reasoning can be you enjoy the power trip of having the passengers under your command.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==


And walking away from an upset customer will do what? You've accepted they've shouted at you which I said will happen. You walking away will enflame the situation considerably possibly leading to the customer being even more irate with the next member of staff they meet. I wouldn't want colleagues like you, just passing the buck and not dealing with it. Yes, customer service is damn hard work, which is why not everyone is cut out for it, some people would rather walk away than deal with it. That's fine, customer service isn't the job for them. But too many of them remain in it and moan about it. Deal with the customer, resolve it, they'll calm down instead of letting someone else pick up the mess.

You, to be fair, are talking about upset customers, which to be fair are part of the job.

You however mentioned "abuse" earlier, and abuse is not being upset. There is a difference between someone being upset or annoyed, and perhaps raising their voice a little, to someone coming at you with a broken bottle. The former is something you can control and manage, the latter is not and that sort of behaviour is still not unusual on the railway.

I had a colleague, who is the most sweet lady you can imagine, who was working a train the opposite way to me.

She sold a lady travelling with her 4 year old daughter a slightly wrong ticket and when the matter was raised, before she had a chance to do anything, she was grabbed, put in a headlock and beaten black and blue to the point it took 4 or 5 passengers and then the same number of police officers to drag this person off her. She now lives with PTSD, the perpetrator claimed the mental health card when it went to court and got a smack on the wrist and still uses the train to this day.

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking your skills are enough to prevent you from getting hurt, whoever you are, if you come across the wrong person.

 

[yorkie]

Having the right manner and skills will hugely reduce the risk of incidents occuring or escalating but the risk can never be completely eliminated.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed; a ticket office offering split tickets is a strict no-no isn't it? I believe it's against impartial retailing rules. Also there is no way @Philip will be able to manually ensure the cheapest combination is generally issued, without using a website that calculates this.

Passengers would also end up with loads of pieces of paper, rather than one document, as issued by split ticket sites.

Of course passengers are entitled to the tickets they ask for but they shouldn't be offered splits unprompted.

Absolutely correct.

 

[Philip]

Indeed; a ticket office offering split tickets is a strict no-no isn't it? I believe it's against impartial retailing rules. Also there is no way @Philip will be able to manually ensure the cheapest combination is generally issued, without using a website that calculates this.

Passengers would also end up with loads of pieces of paper, rather than one document, as issued by split ticket sites.

Of course passengers are entitled to the tickets they ask for but they shouldn't be offered splits unprompted.

Ah so here's an example of how we try to save a bit if money for the passenger (which is exactly what it is, no 'look at me' or 'power trip' reasons as has been suggested) and you still find fault. It feels more like you have an agenda against ticket offices in general than concerned about poor customer service.

 

[Deafdoggie]

You, to be fair, are talking about upset customers, which to be fair are part of the job.

You however mentioned "abuse" earlier, and abuse is not being upset. There is a difference between someone being upset or annoyed, and perhaps raising their voice a little, to someone coming at you with a broken bottle. The former is something you can control and manage, the latter is not and that sort of behaviour is still not unusual on the railway.

I had a colleague, who is the most sweet lady you can imagine, who was working a train the opposite way to me.

She sold a lady travelling with her 4 year old daughter a slightly wrong ticket and when the matter was raised, before she had a chance to do anything, she was grabbed, put in a headlock and beaten black and blue to the point it took 4 or 5 passengers and then the same number of police officers to drag this person off her. She now lives with PTSD, the perpetrator claimed the mental health card when it went to court and got a smack on the wrist and still uses the train to this day.

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking your skills are enough to prevent you from getting hurt, whoever you are, if you come across the wrong person.

A good point. Thankfully very, very rare. But it only needs to happen to you once. I do understand and appreciate that. You and your colleagues do valuable work on the front line and please don't think it's unappreciated or undervalued.

 

[bramling]

And walking away from an upset customer will do what?

It might teach the person that unacceptable behaviour fails to get them their desired outcome.

Note we’re not talking about someone who is upset, but someone who is abusive. It seems you are condoning such behaviour. Pandering to it only encourages it, which breeds many more problems further down the line.

You've accepted they've shouted at you which I said will happen. You walking away will enflame the situation considerably possibly leading to the customer being even more irate with the next member of staff they meet. I wouldn't want colleagues like you, just passing the buck and not dealing with it. Yes, customer service is damn hard work, which is why not everyone is cut out for it, some people would rather walk away than deal with it. That's fine, customer service isn't the job for them. But too many of them remain in it and moan about it. Deal with the customer, resolve it, they'll calm down instead of letting someone else pick up the mess.

Walking away certainly makes the person calm down if they’ve been stuck on a failed train for an hour, and it’s just been made clear to them that their behaviour has just resulted in them now being stuck there for rather longer still.

 

[The exile]

We have always been told to check the railcard is in date when issuing the ticket with a discount, regardless of whether it is a ticket for travel on the day or in advance.

Railway companies have not told ticket office staff to take a passenger's word for it and apply discounts for future travel based on the passenger saying they will have a railcard in the future.

On the first point- there’s a difference between checking validity of a railcard at point of sale as part of customer service (you do know, don’t you sir, that this particular railcard expires before the day you’re travelling and you’ll need to renew it before then?) and refusing to sell on the basis that someone hasn’t got the railcard with them.

On the second - there’s a world of difference between “the boss hasn’t told me to do xyz” and “ the boss has told me not to do xyz”. I wonder which is actually the case!

 

[bramling]

For clarity, it's not acceptable. But, being shouted at is inevitable at some point. Dealing with it correctly is key. LowLevel is, as ever, correct.

Shouting might well be inevitable, but that doesn’t make it acceptable. The moment someone starts shouting, their behaviour has become unpredictable, and that’s it as far as I’m concerned, they have no further right to any assistance.