Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[tomuk]

It is pretty straightforward regards Railcards the same rules should apply to all sales channels. Either the Railcard should be checked\validated at purchase or the Railcard should be checked\validated at use i.e. during the journey.

On balance due to the practicalities of checking\validation across the various sales channels validation during use, i.e. during the journey, is probably the best.

It appears that the current policy in ticket offices to refuses sales of discounted tickets without the railcard is wrong and needs to change to reflect the other channels.

Having said that the attitude of certain posters on this thread, and in other threads towards the industry in general and ticket offices and their staff more specifically is quite outrageous.

 

[43066]

Booking office procedures really aren’t my thing, however can anyone comment on what the official position is on this? At the end of the day, one way or other it isn’t really for staff to be applying their own interpretations, so this is surely more of a management failing than of individual members of staff.

Mine neither. As a user I’d say my local ticket office is pretty good, with the unfortunate proviso that they don’t keep consistent opening hours. I have found the windows are only open 2/3 of the time I pass through the station during business hours. This is an issue because it means I’ll have to remember to buy my ticket the day before I travel, or simply use the ticket office at work (a London terminal so virtually guaranteed to be open throughout the day).

Of course the wider picture is that I’ll only use it on odd occasions, and only because I buy a priv. The *vast* majority of times I am travelling I simply use my season ticket. If I didn’t have a season ticket and wasn’t entitled to a priv I’d use contactless.

Dubious customer service certainly isn’t confined to the railway. My local Tesco Extra has been playing the arse with the checkouts ever since Covid. First they started closing the checkouts at 10pm, though it is the case that if you ask for one to be opened the policy is that they will do it (albeit this seems to be kept rather quiet). More recently they’ve been closing checkouts rather earlier than 10pm. A few weeks ago I was in there they had just one checkout open at 1930, which was leading to an element of squabbling as people swarmed round the one open checkout. Then last time I was in there we asked for a checkout to be opened which they did (albeit subjected to a lecture extolling the virtues of self-scan), whilst making our way over to the specially opened checkout a woman made a bee-line for it and then we got accused of pushing in. Then tonight again no checkouts open at 2000, asked for one to be opened which again they did, but very grudgingly and basically told “use the self-service in future”. Not sure what happened to Every Little Helps, but hardly a great customer experience, so it isn’t just the railway.

Absolutely.

I’d say the NHS is far and away the worst customer service I’ve ever experienced. I’ve never seen such naked contempt displayed to users of any service, along with gross institutionalised incompetence, which seems to be steadily getting worse!

In recent times I’ve experienced worse customer service from a local estate agency (whom I caught lying!), a certain large national pub chain and several supermarkets where staff continue to talk amongst themselves while serving customers, than I ever have from the railway.

We got there in the end; thanks for providing another reason to justify closing ticket offices to add to the ever growing list.

I don’t think @Philip is necessarily representative and @Haywain provided a useful counterbalance to their comments.

The reality is that ticket office closures are indeed inevitable, but that has little to do with how good or bad the staff who man them are, and when they go we will be losing the good ones as well as the bad and indifferent! My concern is that we will end up with far fewer knowledgeable and helpful staff overall, with more completely unstaffed stations or, at best, more agency staff cluttering up the place. The ones at my local station serve no useful purpose and seem to spend their time mooching about on the platforms staring into their phones.

 

[njr001]

i had to use a ticket office recently and was forced to queue in Plymouth having discovered I couldn’t buy a Cornwall Day Ranger ticket from the TVM or online, I can see the logic of not a full range Rover tickets being available but I would have thought that Devon & Cornwall Ranger tickets should be available at locations where they are valid from.

 

[Falcon1200]

In my experience staff who get abuse are always the same staff. Many staff go their whole career with no abuse because they handle situations well. If you're getting a lot of abuse change the way you deal with situations, you'll be amazed what a difference it makes. If you can't change the way you deal with it then maybe customer service isn't the job for you.

The customer is not always right, and railway staff do not always bring abuse onto themselves. Example: Man asks for a ticket, given the price says 'I was told it was only so much' and refuses to believe me, even when shown the fare in the manual. Goes on to swear and flick a lighted cigarette through the booking office window at my face. That was, and still is, real retail on the railway.

 

[ar10642]

No I don't refuse to serve, in the scenario I have mentioned then I will sell them the ticket without a railcard discount. If they choose to walk away and buy elsewhere then that's up to them.

I mean this really does feel like a concrete example of "the railway" making life more difficult for its users for no good reason.

 

[Dai Corner]

Surely 'the railway' has made things easier for the majority of its users by introducing new ways of buying tickets like TVMs and online sales where those who know what they want can just buy it without having to explain to/argue with a person behind a Perspex window?

 

[Deafdoggie]

not serving them and not telling them how they can get what they want is particularly poor service in my experience.

I'd have to disagree. You've understated it! I think it is shockingly, disgracefully, embarrassingly poor customer service. If I had ever treated a customer like that I'd be cringing with embarrassment about it, certainly not going on public forums telling everyone it's the correct way to behave in a customer service role.
But you've heard it here folks, railway ticket office will deliberately overcharge you and make you pay more. And still people use them! No wonder the staff have the attitude they have, they know they can get away with it!

To clear up a few other points people have willfully misunderstood. The customer is always right does not mean give the customer what they want. That's a myth put about by people who like being grumpy to customers.
Anyone who works in customer service will be shouted at, that's part of the job and what you're paid for. If you don't like it, it's not the job for you. There's no harm or shame in that, but it is the job. If you think you shouldnt be shouted at, customer service isnt the role for you. The great customer service workers though turn an angry shouty customer into a happy smiley one who recommends them to their friends. That's where the skill of the job is. Sadly, not everyone in customer service jobs has the necessary skill sets to do it. Some even take perverse pleasure in upsetting customers more. But the pride and pleasure you get from turning a customer around is truly superb. It's these workers who go home happier at the end of the day.

 

[LowLevel]

It's very interesting to see ticket office staff openly admit that ticket offices can and do refuse sales of tickets which are readily available from TVMs and online, including in circumstances that may cost customers more money (eg having to buy a Railcard up to 12 weeks before it is actually required).

Therefore I am happy to see that ticket office usage has declined rapidly and I look forward to seeing further declines in their use.

Hopefully threads like this will spread the word that ticket offices are not worth visiting, except in a last resort, and we can avoid people being inconvenienced.

@Philip when you refuse to serve people in circumstances where they could legitimately purchase online, do you inform them that they have this option? I certainly hope they are given the necessary options and information to make an informed choice.

To be fair, I recall that ticket offices, and when they existed, travel centres, asking for railcards has more or less always been a thing - if you were booking in advance they'd generally sell the railcard at the time of purchasing the ticket. I remember even going back to the 90s that Mumsy renewing the family railcard always took place with a visit to the nearest travel centre to buy the tickets for the annual family holiday. It's just how it was

The move to online sales has rarely interfaced with traditional methods and I suspect no one has ever given much thought to briefing a change in practice to ticket offices.

It isn't the kind of cultural change that will occur unless it's briefed - and much more used to be made of tickets not being transferable too.

Another example of change not really keeping step - the amount of people who thrust apps at me as a guard expecting me to know how they work, or be able to help them with mistakes, or be able to magically pull up their travel authority from some centralised database if it goes wrong. Apart from the relatively new innovation of being able to print ToD, itself on it's way out, I have no briefing or knowledge behind apps and e-tickets, except for how to scan and inspect them. If they go wrong, it's basically charge again and let them sort it out with the retailer unless we get an email advising of a national problem and to pass them.

 

[Deafdoggie]

To be fair, I recall that ticket offices, and when they existed, travel centres, asking for railcards has more or less always been a thing - if you were booking in advance they'd generally sell the railcard at the time of purchasing the ticket. I remember even going back to the 90s that Mumsy renewing the family railcard always took place with a visit to the nearest travel centre to buy the tickets for the annual family holiday. It's just how it was

They did use to do this. But two things changed. Firstly, we now have advance tickets which are cheaper to purchase...well,...in advance. Secondly, we now have TVM and Internet sales. Ticket offices need to brought, kicking & screaming, into the 21st Century.

 

[Jurg]

If I have served the customer before and know that they have a railcard that is in date then yes I'll apply the discount, as I will if the railcard expires before the date of travel for their advance ticket, in the trust that they will renew it before their journey.

If I don't know of a valid railcard from previous experiences then no I won't, nor will I take their word for it that they will buy one at some point and apply the discount on an advance fare when they don't have evidence of a valid or recently expired railcard at the point of sale.

This approach seems maddeningly inconsistent. You're neither consistently protecting revenue, nor consistently allowing grown adults to take responsibility for themselves. That the inconsistency is applied in a consistent way does not make it any better. You're inconveniencing some customers, without telling them that they needn't be inconvenienced, while not doing the same for others based on a strange arbitrary distinction. It's completely potty, and it would be interesting to know whether the decision to trust expiring railcard holders while not trusting others is your own invention or the policy of your employers.

It can't be that difficult. If I was buying tickets for immediate travel at a ticket office, I would expect to have to present a valid railcard. For advance travel by all means ask, but if someone gives you a reasonable explanation of why they don't have one with them now but will do when they travel, it's on them if they decide to commit fraud.

 

[LowLevel]

They did use to do this. But two things changed. Firstly, we now have advance tickets which are cheaper to purchase...well,...in advance. Secondly, we now have TVM and Internet sales. Ticket offices need to brought, kicking & screaming, into the 21st Century.

I don't disagree - they should function more as a travel centre with a focus on providing excellent service for more complex needs. However, they'll only do that if they're told to. Old habits die hard. It wasn't that long ago you might have gone to somewhere like Leicester and seen 7 windows open knocking out solely tickets for today with 1 on the side doing advance bookings. As it happens, they're still there from the inside, just covered over Now it's often one or two people mixing up everything.

With the focus at the moment seeming to be more on getting rid of them, I doubt you'll see this happen.

Expecting people who are trained in a certain way to suddenly have a eureka moment and go "ah!", on a universal basis, is unlikely.

 

[Tester]

Ironically, in the case of railcards for advance sales, it is 'computer says yes, but human says no!'.

I do think that the proposition in the title has indeed been confirmed.

 

[yorkie]

Ironically, in the case of railcards for advance sales, it is 'computer says yes, but human says no!'.

I do think that the proposition in the title has indeed been confirmed.

It certainly has. We just need to make sure as many people are given the information so they can make an informed choice.

We can't rely on ticket office staff to give people that choice directly but we can all spread the word; the evidence is on this thread.

 

[STINT47]

I think it's more down to managers taking revenue for granted. If passengers don't come the government gives them subsidy to cover the shortfall. If there was a real risk of the business going bust then they might be more customer focused.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think it's more down to managers taking revenue for granted. If passengers don't come the government gives them subsidy to cover the shortfall. If there was a real risk of the business going bust then they might be more customer focused.

Do you think things were better when TOCs had the revenue risk and every £ in the farebox fed through to the bottom line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you think things were better when TOCs had the revenue risk and every £ in the farebox fed through to the bottom line?

There's certainly something in that - Merseyrail's concessionaire has a revenue share in order to encourage them to take revenue protection seriously, for instance, though it doesn't do much for customer service.

 

[Haywain]

Firstly, we now have advance tickets which are cheaper to purchase...well,...in advance.

This is actually nothing new - we have had forms of Advance tickets for a very long time. They certainly predate buying online.

We can't rely on all ticket office staff to give people that choice directly

Corrected that for you.

I think it's more down to managers taking revenue for granted.

It's not that but that most managers don't have enough (or any) knowledge of the granularity of how the revenue is made up or how the ticket offices go about selling tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

Do you think things were better when TOCs had the revenue risk and every £ in the farebox fed through to the bottom line?

No. TOCs not having revenue risk is, in general, a very new thing.

 

[43066]

Surely 'the railway' has made things easier for the majority of its users by introducing new ways of buying tickets like TVMs and online sales where those who know what they want can just buy it without having to explain to/argue with a person behind a Perspex window?

Well quite.

It’s a shame that in so many areas of modern life people seem to actively shun any interaction with human beings (perhaps that’s partly why anti social behaviour is so rife - people exist in their own electronic worlds and have no regard those around them). The mechanisms have long since been there for them to purchase tickets by electronic means if they wish, so I don’t quite understand the vitriol towards ticket offices when nobody is being forced to use them!

But you've heard it here folks, railway ticket office will deliberately overcharge you and make you pay more. And still people use them! No wonder the staff have the attitude they have, they know they can get away with it!

Some staff, not all. Just like any other business. In my experience the railway is certainly no worse (and often better) than supermarkets and many other organisations in this regard.

Ticket offices need to brought, kicking & screaming, into the 21st Century.

Oh well there’s a brave new world coming. It already exists in my local area, where I regularly don’t encounter a single member of staff at all other than someone wearing an “on trak” hi vi, with the appearance (and people skills) of a night club bouncer.

That doesn’t fit into any definition of good customer service that I’ve ever heard. Oh, and fares won’t be any cheaper either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s a shame that in so many areas of modern life people seem to actively shun any interaction with human beings (perhaps that’s partly why anti social behaviour is so rife - people exist in their own electronic worlds and have no regard those around them). The mechanisms have long since been there for them to purchase tickets by electronic means if they wish, so I don’t quite understand the vitriol towards ticket offices when nobody is being forced to use them!

Cost. And because the staff are often not knowledgeable, poor value for that cost.

 

[mike57]

I think the root cause of a lot of the problems is the convoluted fare structure. Add to this 'local' rules regarding things like railcard at time of purchase and you have a recipe for conflict and misunderstanding.

A good example of how this plays out is the example of a manned station in our area, 2 staff members are really helpful, and will try and book the best deal, even offering split tickets if the saving is worthwhile, the other staff member is completely unhelpful and has been the subject of complaints over the years.

I know the fare structure has been debated at length on here, but to me the current structure needs urgent reform. It adds to the stress and difficulty for the good workers and allows the bad ones (who to be fair in my experience are in the minority) to hide behind the complexity. It confuses passengers, i.e. the customers aka the ones who contribute to the wages and funding of the system and probably puts people off making journeys in some cases, because they don't know how to get the best fare, and reach the HOW MUCH... I'll use the car/not go at all stage.

Easy to use means simple options, users dont care about TOC's or the complex off peak options with some routes even offering Super offpeak with even more restrictions. Rail cards should be checked at point of use. You may send a family member in to your local station to pick tickets up.

What I find disappointing is that everyone knows what the problems are but there seems to be no appetite to sort it. Now that leisure travel is making up more of the revenue pot people do have options and the railway needs to fix the obvious problems or face a slow decline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't disagree - they should function more as a travel centre with a focus on providing excellent service for more complex needs.

This is the only sensible purpose for them, but I fear the culture is just not there.

 

[Philip]

There are quite a few pompous and condescending views in this thread, particularly relating to people trying to 'spell' out customer service and how being shouted at is part of the role (which is nonsense). One or two posters are crossing the boundary in my opinion - all I'll say is you're really not in a position to make judgements on how good or bad someone is at their job based on one aspect of it which as explained is a very grey and inconsistent area between ticket office and online sales.

There is nothing wrong with my approach to applying railcard discounts and I speak for the majority of ticket office staff here; consistency between ticket office staff is also important, so it's no good if one clerk is doing things one way and another clerk the other. We have always been told to check the railcard is in date when issuing the ticket with a discount, regardless of whether it is a ticket for travel on the day or in advance. Anything beyond that is down to discretion from ticket office staff and I have already said there are circumstances when I (and we) use discretion in relation to railcard discounts. However, I don't see why we should start applying discounts to tickets when there is no evidence of an existing card!

Railway companies have not told ticket office staff to take a passenger's word for it and apply discounts for future travel based on the passenger saying they will have a railcard in the future. And it is the TOC revenue we are collecting/protecting, not our own money. Why should we direct passengers to a sales outlet which potentially threatens our jobs, just because these sales outlets don't have adequate railcard validity checkers?

 

[Haywain]

There is nothing wrong with my approach to applying railcard discounts and I speak for the majority of ticket office staff here.

I think you should try putting yourself in the customer's shoes and you might see it differently. Also, bear in mind that no offence is committed in buying a discounted ticket, only in using one without being entitled to do so. And I really don't think you speak for the majority.

 

[bramling]

I'd have to disagree. You've understated it! I think it is shockingly, disgracefully, embarrassingly poor customer service. If I had ever treated a customer like that I'd be cringing with embarrassment about it, certainly not going on public forums telling everyone it's the correct way to behave in a customer service role.
But you've heard it here folks, railway ticket office will deliberately overcharge you and make you pay more. And still people use them! No wonder the staff have the attitude they have, they know they can get away with it!

To clear up a few other points people have willfully misunderstood. The customer is always right does not mean give the customer what they want. That's a myth put about by people who like being grumpy to customers.
Anyone who works in customer service will be shouted at, that's part of the job and what you're paid for. If you don't like it, it's not the job for you. There's no harm or shame in that, but it is the job. If you think you shouldnt be shouted at, customer service isnt the role for you. The great customer service workers though turn an angry shouty customer into a happy smiley one who recommends them to their friends. That's where the skill of the job is. Sadly, not everyone in customer service jobs has the necessary skill sets to do it. Some even take perverse pleasure in upsetting customers more. But the pride and pleasure you get from turning a customer around is truly superb. It's these workers who go home happier at the end of the day.

I completely disagree that taking abuse should be considered part & parcel of any customer-facing job. It really isn’t.

The job of staff, in any industry, is to provide a service, not to delight people with unreasonable expectations, or those who simply get a buzz out of picking fights, of which there’s a small contingent who exist and will cause problems no matter how good the member of staff is.

 

[Philip]

I think you should try putting yourself in the customer's shoes and you might see it differently. Also, bear in mind that no offence is committed in buying a discounted ticket, only in using one without being entitled to do so. And I really don't think you speak for the majority.

Well I think you're mistaken on the last point, considering all of my colleagues (and clerks I know at other other stations or who I've worked with before) apply the same stance.

It is the passenger's responsibility to ensure they have a valid railcard to present when asked, why is that unreasonable? I have put forward a potential solution to this problem by allowing all railcards to be post-dated and issued at the point when the passenger buys the advance ticket, but this seems to have gone unnoticed.

 

[ar10642]

Well I think you're mistaken on the last point, considering all of my colleagues (and clerks I know at other other stations or who I've worked with before) apply the same stance.

It is the passenger's responsibility to ensure they have a valid railcard to present when asked, why is that unreasonable? I have put forward a potential solution to this problem by allowing all railcards to be post-dated and issued at the point when the passenger buys the advance ticket, but this seems to have gone unnoticed.

The solution is just selling the ticket, like the TVMs and websites do.

 

[Tester]

Well I think you're mistaken on the last point, considering all of my colleagues (and clerks I know at other other stations or who I've worked with before) apply the same stance.

It is the passenger's responsibility to ensure they have a valid railcard to present when asked, why is that unreasonable? I have put forward a potential solution to this problem by allowing all railcards to be post-dated and issued at the point when the passenger buys the advance ticket, but this seems to have gone unnoticed.

I think you have made your position absolutely clear - which is the point of the thread.

 

[Philip]

The solution is just selling the ticket, like the TVMs and websites do.

And this potentially encourages ticket fraud and not protecting the revenue of the TOC. Customer service is not the only role of the ticket office; revenue protection is as well and always has been. If people don't like it then write to the DfT or ATOC to complain.

 

[43066]

Cost. And because the staff are often not knowledgeable, poor value for that cost.

The worry I have is the TOCs will likely use closure as a way to simply de-staff rather than repurpose staff to more customer focussed roles (which I agree is necessary nowadays).

As for cost it will make no appreciable difference to fares…

I completely disagree that taking abuse should be considered part & parcel of any customer-facing job. It really isn’t.

Agreed. And of course on the railway the abuse certainly isn’t limited to being shouted at. I have had colleagues who’ve been physically and sexually assaulted, spat at, stabbed etc.

Well I think you're mistaken on the last point, considering all of my colleagues (and clerks I know at other other stations or who I've worked with before) apply the same stance.

It is the passenger's responsibility to ensure they have a valid railcard to present when asked, why is that unreasonable? I have put forward a potential solution to this problem by allowing all railcards to be post-dated and issued at the point when the passenger buys the advance ticket, but this seems to have gone unnoticed.

But rail cards cannot be post dated so it isn’t a current solution. AFAIK there are no plans to implement it either, so I don’t see the relevance of this suggestion?

It just seems extremely obstructive and pedantic to refuse to sell a ticket for travel in a month or so to someone who states they don’t currently have a railcard but intend to obtain one. We have established you aren’t required to do this - and clearly other ticket offices don’t - so why do you insist on doing it?

You are doing yourself and your colleagues no favours on this thread.

 

[ar10642]

And this potentially encourages ticket fraud and not protecting the revenue of the TOC. Customer service is not the only role of the ticket office; revenue protection is as well and always has been. If people don't like it then write to the DfT or ATOC to complain.

It provides no meaningful revenue protection, for the many reasons already outlined.