Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[43066]

I commented on a specific case where a railcard was being produced which expired earlier then the ticket being purchased. In that situation there are no grounds top refuse to sell the ticket. With regard to the bigger issue of buying tickets without being able to produce a railcard at the time, I believe there are still instructions in place that staff should check the railcard at that point. My own view is that a pragamatic view should be taken and advance purchase should be permitted as it is online or from self service machines, and that is how I would proceed. For purchases on the day of travel I don't think it is unreasonable to check the railcard at the counter and I can say from experience that doing so does reveal a lot of expired railcards and some cases of misuse.

Thanks for clarifying - all seems perfectly sensible. I think there is some argument for the sake of argument taking place on this thread!

On the buying of tickets, I saw this graphic from the RDG today. The trend is only going to continue going one way. 23% is of course still not a tiny number but it’s by far from the majority (which it last was 10 years ago).

Interesting to note TVM sales seem to be declining at a quicker rate than face to face as online sales rise. Presumably those using TVMs are switching to online more readily than those who use face to face (ie the elderly, those who simply don’t like using technology etc.)

Clearly there is still a significant “rump” of people who prefer to use ticket offices to either TVMs or online, albeit this is unlikely to justify them remaining open in anything like the numbers there are currently.

This presumably varies significantly by region eg in London I bet contactless is a higher % than face to face.

 

[Horizon22]

Thanks for clarifying - all seems perfectly sensible. I think there is some argument for the sake of argument taking place on this thread!



Interesting to note TVM sales seem to be declining at a quicker rate than face to face as online sales rise. Presumably those using TVMs are switching to online more readily than those who use face to face (ie the elderly, those who simply don’t like using technology etc.)

Clearly there is still a significant “rump” of people who prefer to use ticket offices to either TVMs or online, albeit this is unlikely to justify them remaining open in anything like the numbers there are currently.

This presumably varies significantly by region eg in London I bet contactless is a higher % than face to face.

It does explicitly remove TfL rom the figures presumably as that would be “Other” to a high degree in terms of Oyster & contactless.

As for TVMs, probably because of fewer people using them over digital due to not attending stations during lockdown and opting online instead. Although now people have done it, perhaps they'll stick with that method.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the relevance of this? It still has to be produced to buy tickets - and the only time I've not had to is when buying from the office I worked in.

The relevance is that an occasional Railcard user buying online only needs to buy a Railcard just before the day of travel, whereas if buying at a booking office they'll have to buy one when they buy the tickets, which may be a couple of months beforehand, and thus lose 2 months of paid validity.

It's quite possible, if the dates fit, that a family would get two years of summer holidays out of one Family Railcard if that was their only use case for it, but not if they had to have it when they bought their Advances nice and early.

 

[ComUtoR]

However as long as you remain employed you get a new one every year.

Unless you have had your PRIV removed.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I commented on a specific case where a railcard was being produced which expired earlier then the ticket being purchased. In that situation there are no grounds top refuse to sell the ticket. With regard to the bigger issue of buying tickets without being able to produce a railcard at the time, I believe there are still instructions in place that staff should check the railcard at that point. My own view is that a pragamatic view should be taken and advance purchase should be permitted as it is online or from self service machines, and that is how I would proceed. For purchases on the day of travel I don't think it is unreasonable to check the railcard at the counter and I can say from experience that doing so does reveal a lot of expired railcards and some cases of misuse.

That's the perfect answer. I don't understand those who are saying they point blank refuse to sell any railcard ticket without the railcard.

 

[43066]

It does explicitly remove TfL rom the figures presumably as that would be “Other” to a high degree in terms of Oyster & contactless.

Yes. I wonder if that means they’re excluding all national rail contactless/oyster transactions in London as well as TfL “proper”, which I suppose would mean just Elizabeth line/Arriva Rail London.

As for TVMs, probably because of fewer people using them over digital due to not attending stations during lockdown and opting online instead. Although now people have done it, perhaps they'll stick with that method.

True.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As for TVMs, probably because of fewer people using them over digital due to not attending stations during lockdown and opting online instead. Although now people have done it, perhaps they'll stick with that method.

Ever tried using an Avanti TVM anytime recently?

 

[M&NEJ]

Ever tried using an Avanti TVM anytime recently?

Yes, I got two Transpennine Airport Advances last week. All went well until it offered me a seating plan to choose my seats. Tapped on 2 coach A seats side by side and the tickets that came out of the machine put me in coach A and my son in coach C. Always expect the unexpected!

 

[The exile]

Thanks for clarifying - all seems perfectly sensible. I think there is some argument for the sake of argument taking place on this thread!



Interesting to note TVM sales seem to be declining at a quicker rate than face to face as online sales rise. Presumably those using TVMs are switching to online more readily than those who use face to face (ie the elderly, those who simply don’t like using technology etc.)

Clearly there is still a significant “rump” of people who prefer to use ticket offices to either TVMs or online, albeit this is unlikely to justify them remaining open in anything like the numbers there are currently.

This presumably varies significantly by region eg in London I bet contactless is a higher % than face to face.

Although representing only a small proportion of sales, I would imagine the relative lack of foreign tourists will have made a difference to the figures on modality of ticket sales- hitting office sales in London and other tourist centres(Bath, Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh etc)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I got two Transpennine Airport Advances last week. All went well until it offered me a seating plan to choose my seats. Tapped on 2 coach A seats side by side and the tickets that came out of the machine put me in coach A and my son in coach C. Always expect the unexpected!

Do the Avanti TVMs offer seat selection for TPE services? That's interesting.

 

[M&NEJ]

Do the Avanti TVMs offer seat selection for TPE services? That's interesting.

These are recently installed machines at Lancaster, more advanced than the ones I've seen before.

 

[Philip]

I commented on a specific case where a railcard was being produced which expired earlier then the ticket being purchased. In that situation there are no grounds top refuse to sell the ticket. With regard to the bigger issue of buying tickets without being able to produce a railcard at the time, I believe there are still instructions in place that staff should check the railcard at that point. My own view is that a pragamatic view should be taken and advance purchase should be permitted as it is online or from self service machines, and that is how I would proceed. For purchases on the day of travel I don't think it is unreasonable to check the railcard at the counter and I can say from experience that doing so does reveal a lot of expired railcards and some cases of misuse.

This is fair enough. However I think the ideal would be to allow even non-renewal railcards to be advance-dated with a clear start and expiry date printed on it so that the passenger can have the railcard validity starting fron when they want to first use it, whilst also allowing booking office staff to do this without feeling like they're breaking ticket-issuing rules.

 

[LowLevel]

In my experience staff who get abuse are always the same staff. Many staff go their whole career with no abuse because they handle situations well. If you're getting a lot of abuse change the way you deal with situations, you'll be amazed what a difference it makes. If you can't change the way you deal with it then maybe customer service isn't the job for you.

I would say that you're wrong there. Staff who *regularly* cop for abuse are often those who either a) are lacking in people skills or b) work to the rules. The two do not always go together. There are perfectly pleasant individuals who treat passengers very nicely who cop for abuse because they don't turn a blind eye, and those who hardly bother checking tickets at all, and when they do, it's a cursory glance - they won't cop for much abuse, though they can still be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Unless you're very lucky, which has nothing to do with how you handle situations, or don't bother doing your job at all, which is much easier for a guard than a booking clerk, you will cop for some abuse because that's what dealing with humans is like, particularly when your job involves taking money from people.

Just the other day I sold a pair of blokes tickets. I noted that they hadn't got off at the station they'd paid to. As soon as I walked down and politely mentioned that I'd sold them a ticket to Station A and they'd not gotten off, one of the pair called me a series of expletives, told me I wasn't getting another penny out of him, and that if we weren't on a train he would knock me out (I've never worked out why being on a train seems to be important to these people, and why they assume I'd just allow them to knock me out anyway). This was for a difference in fares to their actual destination of less than a fiver.

I could have just not bothered challenging their blatant fraudulent behaviour, but what's the point otherwise? As it happens, because I know how to handle myself with people, I wasn't knocked out (as soon as he mentioned anything along those lines I stood so as to block him into his seat and not give him room to swing, and successfully de-escalated the situation), and nor do I allow such behaviour to bother me - but if I was a less robust individual then that would be a fairly scary situation for some, I imagine - a criminal offence no less just for asking about a ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These are recently installed machines at Lancaster, more advanced than the ones I've seen before.

Yeah, I've used them. I hate the UI, but offering seat selection on other TOCs is an upside.

 

[Haywain]

As for TVMs, probably because of fewer people using them over digital due to not attending stations during lockdown and opting online instead. Although now people have done it, perhaps they'll stick with that method.

More to do with the improvement in and increased use of apps over the last 2 or 3 years, and the fact that most people manage to not have phones failing to connect to the web or running out of battery after 2 minutes of use!

 

[yorkie]

It's very interesting to see ticket office staff openly admit that ticket offices can and do refuse sales of tickets which are readily available from TVMs and online, including in circumstances that may cost customers more money (eg having to buy a Railcard up to 12 weeks before it is actually required).

Therefore I am happy to see that ticket office usage has declined rapidly and I look forward to seeing further declines in their use.

Hopefully threads like this will spread the word that ticket offices are not worth visiting, except in a last resort, and we can avoid people being inconvenienced.

@Philip when you refuse to serve people in circumstances where they could legitimately purchase online, do you inform them that they have this option? I certainly hope they are given the necessary options and information to make an informed choice.

 

[Scott1]

Therefore I am happy to see that ticket office usage has declined rapidly and I look forward to seeing further declines in their use.

Hopefully threads like this will spread the word that ticket offices are not worth visiting, except in a last resort, and we can avoid people being inconvenienced.

Out of interest what do you think will happen when the stations that have 1 staff member who does the ticket office, opens up, cleans the toilets etc isn't required. I can't see them keeping someone for the rest, so what will happen to the waiting room and toilets?

 

[Ediswan]

Hopefully threads like this will spread the word that ticket offices are not worth visiting, except in a last resort, and we can avoid people being inconvenienced.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but if I want a simple same-day walk-up ticket, I will continue to prefer the ticket office.

 

[Philip]

@Philip when you refuse to serve people in circumstances where they could legitimately purchase online, do you inform them that they have this option? I certainly hope they are given the necessary options and information to make an informed choice.

I didn't say I refuse to serve them and no I don't generally direct people to buy tickets online. If a valid railcard is present then I will apply the discount, if it isn't then I won't unless they wish to buy/renew the railcard, or I'll offer them the option to buy a railcard if it saves them money on the transaction.

 

[yorkie]

Out of interest what do you think will happen when the stations that have 1 staff member who does the ticket office, opens up, cleans the toilets etc isn't required. I can't see them keeping someone for the rest, so what will happen to the waiting room and toilets?

Staff need to be better utilised than they are at present; you are very welcome to create a thread in the speculative discussion for suggestions on how that may be achieved and I'd be happy to post some ideas there.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but if I want a simple same-day walk-up ticket, I will continue to prefer the ticket office.

Sorry to disappoint you but ticket offices are in decline, big time, and mass closures are inevitable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

I didn't say I refuse to serve them and no I don't generally direct people to buy tickets online. If a valid railcard is present then I will apply the discount, if it isn't then I won't unless they wish to buy/renew the railcard, or offer them a railcard if it saves them money on the transaction.

So you will or won't fulfil a request for or including a ticket for advance travel with a Railcard discount when the Railcard is not present?

 

[Ediswan]

Sorry to disappoint you but ticket offices are in decline, big time, and mass closures are inevitable.

I know. I was disagreeing with your assertion that they are "not worth visitng, except as a last resort".

 

[yorkie]

I know. I was disagreeing with your assertion was that they are "not worth visitng, except as a last resort".

If you don't mind being inconvenienced by ticket offices, that's your prerogative. I have been messed about by them enough over the years, as have many other people I know.

As long as people are aware of the issues, they can make an informed choice.

If some people (and this is very much a minority) still choose to visit them, they can make that choice, but will only be possible at an ever decreasing number of locations and at reduced times and so the choice will increasingly become unavailable.

The behaviour of some ticket office staff is accelerating a process that was perhaps inevitable anyway, but that behaviour certainly makes it more justifiable in my opinion.

 

[Ediswan]

If you don't mind being inconvenienced by ticket offices, that's your prerogative. I have been messed about by them enough over the years, as have many other people I know. As long as people are aware of the issues, they can choose to visit them if they want, but the reality is the vast majority of people no longer do.

The last/only time I recall being inconvenienced by a ticket office, BR was in charge. No TVMs, no online.

 

[Philip]

Staff need to be better utilised than they are at present; you are very welcome to create a thread in the speculative discussion for suggestions on how that may be achieved and I'd be happy to post some ideas there.

Sorry to disappoint you but ticket offices are in decline, big time, and mass closures are inevitable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==


So you will or won't fulfil a request for or including a ticket for advance travel with a Railcard discount when the Railcard is not present?

If I have served the customer before and know that they have a railcard that is in date then yes I'll apply the discount, as I will if the railcard expires before the date of travel for their advance ticket, in the trust that they will renew it before their journey.

If I don't know of a valid railcard from previous experiences then no I won't, nor will I take their word for it that they will buy one at some point and apply the discount on an advance fare when they don't have evidence of a valid or recently expired railcard at the point of sale.

 

[yorkie]

The last/only time I recall being inconvenienced by a ticket office, BR was in charge. No TVMs, no online.

Lucky you! Many others have had negative experiences.

If I have served the customer before and know that they have a railcard that is in date then yes I'll apply the discount, as I will if the railcard expires before the date of travel for their advance ticket, in the trust that they will renew it before their journey.

If I don't know of a valid railcard from previous experiences then no I won't, nor will I take their word for it that they will buy one at some point and apply the discount on an advance fare when they don't have evidence of a valid or recently expired railcard at the point of sale.

So you do refuse to serve them.

It's a shame you don't tell them they could obtain what they seek online; not serving them and not telling them how they can get what they want is particularly poor service in my experience.

 

[Philip]

Lucky you! Many others have had negative experiences.

So you do refuse to serve them.

It's a shame you don't tell them they could obtain what they seek online; not serving them and not telling them how they can get what they want is particularly poor service in my experience.

No I don't refuse to serve, in the scenario I have mentioned then I will sell them the ticket without a railcard discount. If they choose to walk away and buy elsewhere then that's up to them.

 

[yorkie]

So you admit you refuse to fulfil their request, and would charge them more than they would be required to pay online, right?

 

[bramling]

Lucky you! Many others have had negative experiences.

So you do refuse to serve them.

It's a shame you don't tell them they could obtain what they seek online; not serving them and not telling them how they can get what they want is particularly poor service in my experience.

Booking office procedures really aren’t my thing, however can anyone comment on what the official position is on this? At the end of the day, one way or other it isn’t really for staff to be applying their own interpretations, so this is surely more of a management failing than of individual members of staff.

Dubious customer service certainly isn’t confined to the railway. My local Tesco Extra has been playing the arse with the checkouts ever since Covid. First they started closing the checkouts at 10pm, though it is the case that if you ask for one to be opened the policy is that they will do it (albeit this seems to be kept rather quiet). More recently they’ve been closing checkouts rather earlier than 10pm. A few weeks ago I was in there they had just one checkout open at 1930, which was leading to an element of squabbling as people swarmed round the one open checkout. Then last time I was in there we asked for a checkout to be opened which they did (albeit subjected to a lecture extolling the virtues of self-scan), whilst making our way over to the specially opened checkout a woman made a bee-line for it and then we got accused of pushing in. Then tonight again no checkouts open at 2000, asked for one to be opened which again they did, but very grudgingly and basically told “use the self-service in future”. Not sure what happened to Every Little Helps, but hardly a great customer experience, so it isn’t just the railway.

To be honest it feels like this whole country is well and truly down the toilet at the moment, railways and everything else.

 

[Philip]

Having said that, a word or two to the passenger about the potential difficulties of buying online; problems with the app playing up and buying from the ticket office being more straightforward does no harm I find.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

So you admit you refuse to fulfil their request, and would charge them more than they would be required to pay online, right?

Indeed I would.

 

[yorkie]

Having said that, a word or two to the passenger about the potential difficulties of buying online; problems with the app playing up and buying from the ticket office being more straightforward does no harm I find.

For balance, do you admit the potential difficulties of buying at ticket offices?

What apps are you referring to? There is no need to use any app when buying online.

I don't see how buying at a ticket office is more straightforward; you would charge more than Trainsplit for many of the journeys I make and if I was buying tickets for a group including Railcard discounts you'd be refusing the discounts and overcharging me. That's not straightforward at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==


Indeed I would.

We got there in the end; thanks for providing another reason to justify closing ticket offices to add to the ever growing list.