Deutsche Bahn and the Channel Tunnel?

[EWS 58038]

I think you'll find the existing fleet will soon enter a mid-life major upgrade and refurb program and will enter service for another 15 years.

No doubt about that... Old news BTW.

But will they still be in service with Eurostar for another 15 years? I don't think so.

 

[mickey]

How will UK border control staff and security check points operate at each of the stations en route ? There are check points already in place at Brussels and Lille, but what about Cologne, Aachen and Liege?

That's something the UKBA would have to sort out themselves - there's no way the government would be able to ban through services just because they insist on conducting full immigration checks within the EU. It's the same with ferry and air services - the staff go where they're needed, not where we say they can.

In any case, however, you've clearly never travelled into St Pancras: if you had, you would know that there is a full immigration hall there. Normally the desks are unoccupied and passengers simply walk straight through as they've been pre-cleared but it would be perfectly simple to staff them when certain trains arrive but not for others. Indeed I suspect (though don't know for sure, having never travelled on them) that this is what happens for the seasonal services to Avignon and Bourg-St-Maurice, the latter of which stops at several tiny haystacks where I very much doubt UKBA staff are in attendance just for two weekly trains. (Though if they are I want a job with them!)

It's unlikely that many people will travel all the way from London to Berlin, but there would certainly be a great many passengers joining and leaving en route. [...] Adding a service to Berlin would be more about prestige than practicality.

Indeed. There are hourly trains from the very bottom of Germany through Frankfurt, Dusseldorf, Cologne and Bremen that take all day to travel all the way to Hamburg. No one ever makes the full journey (ICE is much faster from Stuttgart to Hamburg, via Hannover) but it's easy enough to run the trains and have people get on and off anywhere along the route. I dare say it's the same with Penzance-Edinburgh...

 

[TGV]

No doubt about that... Old news BTW.

But will they still be in service with Eurostar for another 15 years? I don't think so.

I think they will... A tenner says they will in fact!

 

[atomicdanny]

I hope the ICE 3s will stop at Ashford though (that is if they do come to london), but then again it'll probably be the same as the eurostars more stopping at Ebbsfleet rather than Ashford

I had a little fun with MSTS and Open Rails to see what St Pancras would look like with ICE 3s! (three pictures, although the only 2 with the ICE 3s).

http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic.php/72755/or-ice3-01.jpg
http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic.php/72755/or-ice3-02.jpg
http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic.php/72755/or-ice3-03.jpg

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure we should underestimate the usage of such trains, given that low cost airlines are now getting a very bad reputation as more and more people are falling foul of all the hidden 'con tricks' from the likes of Ryanair to turn that £10 fare into something much more, from checking in, taking bags and everything else. Now those low fares are very hard to get (like an advance ticket on a train perhaps), but you don't generally fall foul of the other things when taking a train.

So, that's a growing number of people who will no longer fly with some low cost airlines.

We only need fuel/taxes to increase for airlines and that will see more go.

And then we have more and more people who are actually quite into being green, and would travel by train in preference to flying regardless of the time differences.

It's also a nice way to travel, and for a family you'd be a lot less stressed enjoying a train journey through some amazing scenery than on a plane.

Now, I'll say that I'll still fly when I need to (for short trips, perhaps where I'm there and back in a day or maybe a weekend break) but that isn't every time and so I'll take the train (as indeed, I may drive) at other times. As long as a lot of people aren't fixated with just one mode of transport, but rather the best one for their need, then I am sure the train will get its fair share of the passenger numbers.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The journey has to be sub 4 hours to compete with a plane - Eurostar were said to be looking seriously at Amsterdam and had a team working on it. I can imagine DB could serve Cologne and Dusseldorf perhaps, but would imagine Frankfurt might be too far?

We went St Pancras - Frankfurt last year; journey time - including the connecting time in Bruxelle - was about 6½ hours. My father in law, who normally drives or flies, came with us - his first time on high speed rail; in fact his first train trip for many years - and he was impressed and said he would certainly consider it again.

Both on the way out and back there were about two dozen people making the same ES / ICE connection as us ( although I don't know which intermediate stations they were going to / from ); I would expect a few more through passengers with a direct service and no need to change in Bruxelle.

Both the ES and ICE were very healthily loaded for their own individual routes, so yes - while there are not enough through passengers to justify it on those grounds, the simple fact that cabotage is allowed on the Continent means that a through service would at least be well loaded throughout.

 

[j0hn0]

We went St Pancras - Frankfurt last year; journey time - including the connecting time in Bruxelle - was about 6½ hours. My father in law, who normally drives or flies, came with us - his first time on high speed rail; in fact his first train trip for many years - and he was impressed and said he would certainly consider it again.

Both on the way out and back there were about two dozen people making the same ES / ICE connection as us ( although I don't know which intermediate stations they were going to / from ); I would expect a few more through passengers with a direct service and no need to change in Bruxelle.

Both the ES and ICE were very healthily loaded for their own individual routes, so yes - while there are not enough through passengers to justify it on those grounds, the simple fact that cabotage is allowed on the Continent means that a through service would at least be well loaded throughout.

On the return journey though, the timetables are a little tight. I have taken an ICE from Cologne to Brussels about 4 times, EVERY time the train was about 15 minutes late, rising to about 20 by the time we get to Brussels Zuid (it takes far too long to get through brussels) which culminated in either rushed check-ins, missing of trains (when overcrowded) and really irate belgians.

On the last train I took, the air con was broken and we were given a questionaire as to whether we would consider an earlier time, a longer journey or a different train etc.

Trains will NEVER be able to compete with airlines until through trains are available. Once someone comes up with a credible way of doing it, we will be forever slaves to the awfully congested and slow.... Belgium.

Sorry, just that every time I go through belgium, by car or by train, there are huge jams and irate belgians.

I will fly for the forseeable future

 

[asylumxl]

Can't say I've had a problem with "irate" Belgians when I visited.

 

[route101]

Belgium isent bad for driving , motorway right through . Traffic levels are high tho . I live in Scotland so taking the train to Europe is expensive .

 

[45669]

It's also a nice way to travel, and for a family you'd be a lot less stressed enjoying a train journey through some amazing scenery.

Absolutely. Provided, of course, that you can actually see the scenery because the computer has booked you seats by glass windows and not opaque plastic panels!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can't say I've had a problem with "irate" Belgians when I visited.

Nor me.

 

[route:oxford]

Would it not be easier to simply hire the former "Regional Eurostars" from SNCF where they are currently be used for some domestic services?

They have the benefit of already being cleared for NOL services.

 

[ivanhoe]

Anybody who thinks Low Cost Airlines are under threat from DB running a few extra trains from Germany to London, are mistaken. Ryanair will be around for years to come and the only threat would be a European ban. This will never happen. A poster quite rightly stated the optimum time of 4 hours. Fine if you live next door to St Pancras but as the majority of us don't, then I can never see in my lifetime a mass transfer of passengers from Air to Rail for journeys in excess of 4 hours, trans European. Rail would have to be so cheap for that to happen.

I would like to see Eurostar extend some Paris and Brussels trains to Birmingham to test and indeed grow a Market. However, as they are only interested in London Markets, it won't happen. Neither will DB make it work. Ryanair and Easyjet will be around for many years yet, and most of their passengers know the score about pricing. It's as transparent as rail fares .

 

[ainsworth74]

The threat to low cost airlines is indeed not from DB but from the end of low cost, low taxed aviation fuel. As soon as that comes to an end and it will, probably in the next 20 or so years, companies like Ryan Air will find it very hard to keep their costs low. At which point 6 hours to Berlin by train might suddenly be competitive at least on cost if not time

 

[mickey]

The threat to low cost airlines is indeed not from DB but from the end of low cost, low taxed aviation fuel. As soon as that comes to an end and it will, probably in the next 20 or so years, companies like Ryan Air will find it very hard to keep their costs low. At which point 6 hours to Berlin by train might suddenly be competitive at least on cost if not time

True, but don't forget that there's an international agreement promising not to tax jet fuel, so it will have to be a market-led fuel price increase. I'm not saying it's never going to happen, but it will lead to so many other 'problems' (not least irate motorists) that the difference in rail/air will seem rather moot. That's my prediction anyways!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On the return journey though, the timetables are a little tight.

We had a bit over 90 minutes to connect; I didn't like the look of the official 35 minute ( or whatever it was ) connection as that gave just 5 minutes to get round from the ICE to the ES check in so I insisted when buying the tickets that we were booked on the next ES an hour later...

 

[jon0844]

There is now a bit of a backlash against Ryanair, who have previously got away with their arrogance (just like Tesco, Apple* etc). People only take it for so long.

That will be the undoing of some low cost airlines, and while anyone can quote some amazing headline figures (just as you can with those hard to get advance tickets on the rail), the fact is most people are paying a lot more than they did - and a lot more than they possibly thought. I know people who have been caught out by one or more of the new fees - and I despise Michael O'Leary for thinking it's a game by finding every loophole to avoid playing by the rules laid down by the EU. That said, I do accept that he won't compromise safety and I do agree that they were stung hard by the ash cloud farce.

Anyway, air travel is going to become a more expensive luxury in the future, and rail will find itself picking up custom from there. Just like when Concorde stopped flying, we may step backwards a little, but it will just have to be accepted.

If oil becomes very scarce, I'd rather have planes flying long distances and have rail covering the shorter journeys, even if they will be slower.

(* I'm a major Apple fan and customer, but Steve Jobs has lost the plot this year)

 

[LE Greys]

There is now a bit of a backlash against Ryanair, who have previously got away with their arrogance (just like Tesco, Apple* etc). People only take it for so long.

That will be the undoing of some low cost airlines, and while anyone can quote some amazing headline figures (just as you can with those hard to get advance tickets on the rail), the fact is most people are paying a lot more than they did - and a lot more than they possibly thought. I know people who have been caught out by one or more of the new fees - and I despise Michael O'Leary for thinking it's a game by finding every loophole to avoid playing by the rules laid down by the EU. That said, I do accept that he won't compromise safety and I do agree that they were stung hard by the ash cloud farce.

Anyway, air travel is going to become a more expensive luxury in the future, and rail will find itself picking up custom from there. Just like when Concorde stopped flying, we may step backwards a little, but it will just have to be accepted.

If oil becomes very scarce, I'd rather have planes flying long distances and have rail covering the shorter journeys, even if they will be slower.

(* I'm a major Apple fan and customer, but Steve Jobs has lost the plot this year)

Agreed here, although if oil does become very expensive, I reckon that ocean liners will make a comeback. The QM2 carries 3,000 passengers at about the same passenger mile cost as a 747, but could probably carry 10,000 at one third of the cost. The new ones could even switch to burning coal if necessary. The market shrinks and slows down, but gains efficiency.

 

[mickey]

We had a bit over 90 minutes to connect; I didn't like the look of the official 35 minute ( or whatever it was ) connection as that gave just 5 minutes to get round from the ICE to the ES check in so I insisted when buying the tickets that we were booked on the next ES an hour later...

The E* check-in is not nearly as rigid as they would have you believe, especially if you're stuck on a connecting train. I've not heard of anyone being refused as long as they're there before the 10-minute business deadline - though of course I'm willing to be corrected if anyone knows otherwise.

Incidentally, and I know it's a much smaller operation, but check-in at Lille doesn't even open until 30 minutes before the train leaves - so everyone boarding officially breaks the rules!

 

[TGVDUDE]

My last ride with Eurostar (St Pancras - Calais Jan 2009) wasn't what I expected (in security anyway) due to my late arriving HST we only just made the 10 minute board after collecting our tickets, then showed our passports, walked through body scanner and up the escalator things, on to the train after walking through an empty departure lounge and not a security guard in sight, and no baggage checked. The return check at Calais, 20 mins before the late Eurostar arrival, Flash passports, body scanner and again, no baggage checked. Now these checks take place because Britain is not part of the Schengen Agreement, which makes the other European Operators, Thalys & DB for example operate 'normal' international with just meer passport check on board if i'm not mistaken.

from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35005&page=4

 

[mickey]

which makes the other European Operators, Thalys & DB for example operate 'normal' international with just meer passport check on board if i'm not mistaken.

Not even that: there is no document check at all on most intra-Schengen trains. Countries can temporarily re-introduce checks if there's a reason for it (usually when the US president is visiting...) or if they have reason to suspect a particular journey but routine systematic checks are not allowed. It's perfectly possible to go from Portugal to Estonia without anyone asking to see your passport or seeing any kind of border official. Similarly, flights on the same routes are considered domestic and treated as such - so passengers arriving in Paris from Toulouse will walk through the airport with those from Warsaw, and so on.

 

[TGVDUDE]

Not even that: there is no document check at all on most intra-Schengen trains. Countries can temporarily re-introduce checks if there's a reason for it (usually when the US president is visiting...) or if they have reason to suspect a particular journey but routine systematic checks are not allowed. It's perfectly possible to go from Portugal to Estonia without anyone asking to see your passport or seeing any kind of border official. Similarly, flights on the same routes are considered domestic and treated as such - so passengers arriving in Paris from Toulouse will walk through the airport with those from Warsaw, and so on.

Thanks Mickey for clearing that up so Its like me getting on the Train at my local, straight into England, no check, no fuss

 

[ivanhoe]

There is now a bit of a backlash against Ryanair, who have previously got away with their arrogance (just like Tesco, Apple* etc). People only take it for so long.

That will be the undoing of some low cost airlines, and while anyone can quote some amazing headline figures (just as you can with those hard to get advance tickets on the rail), the fact is most people are paying a lot more than they did - and a lot more than they possibly thought. I know people who have been caught out by one or more of the new fees - and I despise Michael O'Leary for thinking it's a game by finding every loophole to avoid playing by the rules laid down by the EU. That said, I do accept that he won't compromise safety and I do agree that they were stung hard by the ash cloud farce.

O'Leary believes in the maxim that any publicity is good publicity and in terms of Ryanair, he has proved to be right time and time again.I repeat again, that most people who fly by Ryanair know the score and dont book because it is a penny to get to Alicante. They do get a cheap flight though, even with the add ons. And guess what, nearly every airline has them now anyway. I recently flew East Midlands to Alicante by Thomson Air.If i wanted to pay by credit charge, 2% and 10 pound per passenger to sit together as a party. It was a Boeing 737 and it was as roomy as a Ryanair 737.

The situation is though that for many people, going by train from say Loughborough to Amsterdam is a no brainer , unless you dislike , or cannot, fly. Getting three trains as opposed to a direct flight from East Midlands, is for enthusiasts only. Rail is just too expensive for the forseeable future in respect of trans European Journeys and the only German Route worth considering is Frankfurt to London. However, consider the train journey time against a direct flight to say London City and after allowing for check in time etc, Flying has the edge by a reasonable margin. Love to see it happen, but it could be years before the cost of flying is back to levels of the 1990's which will encourage a move to trains.We could do with low cost Trains , but that aint going to happen either !

 

[jon0844]

Ryanair was okay when it was deemed that you didn't HAVE to take luggage and so on - so you travelled light and everyone was happy.

Those days have gone. Now it's all down to hoping you've misspelled your name (nice admin fee), will forget to check in before you get to the airport (or don't check in for the return flight), will pay a surcharge in the summer months for bags (which you might just want if you're going on holiday, especially with a family, want to go to the toilet, have bought something in duty free and want to carry it with your bag, want to pay on a debit card (and now it's £5 per PERSON isn't it, not per booking?).

All of these things are somewhat different to how it started. I know plenty of people (just read on forums) who have now said enough is enough. Before, people defended them saying 'Well if you want to pay extra, don't...'. Now if you want to save money, you simply don't fly!

Michael isn't just playing with passengers, he's mainly playing the EU that want all of these things included in the ticket price. By having the odd free check-in and free booking via some obscure prepaid card, he's just sticking his finger up to everyone.

What's more, BA and the like are often the same price now and that's pretty risk free (bar strikes). It's ironic how Ryanair supported BA too, given his hatred of unions!!

 

[90019]

Those days have gone. Now it's all down to hoping you've misspelled your name (nice admin fee), will forget to check in before you get to the airport (or don't check in for the return flight), will pay a surcharge in the summer months for bags (which you might just want if you're going on holiday, especially with a family, want to go to the toilet, have bought something in duty free and want to carry it with your bag, want to pay on a debit card (and now it's £5 per PERSON isn't it, not per booking?).

Someone sent me this yesterday about beating Ryanair.

 

[EWS 58038]

Sorry, just that every time I go through belgium, by car or by train, there are huge jams and irate belgians.

I will fly for the forseeable future

You sound like a true Dutchman

 

[tripleseis]

Belgium isent bad for driving , motorway right through .

The roads in Wallonia though are hideous. Entire lengths of motorway cordoned off around Lens because the road surfaces are in a terrible state. Some of the potholes in Liege have to be seen to be believed! It's quite a contrast when you drive up to the Maastricht where the roads and driving are a lot more civilised.

Still, I love the place and really enjoyed the drive through to Germany. Parts of Belgium do have hills!!

 

[mickey]

Those days have gone. Now it's all down to hoping you've misspelled your name (nice admin fee), will forget to check in before you get to the airport (or don't check in for the return flight), will pay a surcharge in the summer months for bags (which you might just want if you're going on holiday, especially with a family, want to go to the toilet, have bought something in duty free and want to carry it with your bag, want to pay on a debit card (and now it's £5 per PERSON isn't it, not per booking?).

...All of which means that those of us who are prepared to jump through his hoops get to fly for even less. I can spell, have a printer, am willing to travel light (I'm perennially amused by the people who pay to stand in more queues...), usually have room in my bag in case I buy something at the airport, and pay using a fees-free card. Fares will only become more 'inclusive' (whatever that means) when the majority of passengers do the same.

Even with the fees they're still usually cheaper than everyone else, they've opened up flying to everyone not just the London elite, and no matter how often people complain they still book again and again - just look at the passenger figures.

 

[jon0844]

Are you Mikey O'Leary?

You do realise he will change the prepaid card you can use from time to time? And given more profit comes from 'other charges', if you keep beating the system then the system will change.

Fair play to you playing by all the rules and bending over backwards to avoid all the fees - but don't be surprised when you see the planes getting emptier, which will in turn see cuts to routes (which has already happened). And it isn't just spelling your name right, but things like getting a passport number wrong. I bet people do it all the time.

Ryanair needs to make that extra money, as well as people paying top dollar for tickets so you get the 50p jobs, and I am not sure how sustainable it will be. Remember too, he did very well by speculating about increases in fuel costs - and saved loads when other airlines suffered - but that's over now.

 

[mickey]

Are you Mikey O'Leary?

You do realise he will change the prepaid card you can use from time to time? And given more profit comes from 'other charges', if you keep beating the system then the system will change.

Fair play to you playing by all the rules and bending over backwards to avoid all the fees - but don't be surprised when you see the planes getting emptier, which will in turn see cuts to routes (which has already happened). And it isn't just spelling your name right, but things like getting a passport number wrong. I bet people do it all the time.

Ryanair needs to make that extra money, as well as people paying top dollar for tickets so you get the 50p jobs, and I am not sure how sustainable it will be. Remember too, he did very well by speculating about increases in fuel costs - and saved loads when other airlines suffered - but that's over now.

I'm not MoL but I'm a big fan of his and can only dream of one day having even half his genius and chutzpah. It's the underdog thing - I like the way he came from nowhere to turn around an industry and a staff that thought themselves immune from proper competition. Maybe one day the same will happen to the railways.

Anyway, to clarify a few things in your post...

I know the payment card will change. It changed a few months ago, I 'got stung' once by not keeping up, and immediately signed up for the new one. You've got to keep up to stay ahead.

The planes aren't getting emptier - that's the point. Load factors are steady, and passenger numbers increase in direct proportion to the increase in flights. Yes routes are cut but they're always replaced by new ones (not necessarily from the same airport though) so on average the business is still expanding. In fact, if anything the flights I've taken recently have been more full than any I've been on before, so it's the opposite effect of what you describe.

They don't print passport numbers on boarding passes any more so it doesn't really matter if you can't read. But I know my passport number by heart anyway from when I was in Russia and it was needed for everything.

I'm not sure either how long the super cheap fares will last. My guess though is that they'll be around at least as long as a significant enough number of people don't bother to make the effort to go and find them. And as I've said before, I don't know what the result would be but I'd sure like to find out what he and his mates could do for the railways...

 

[Fincra5]

In all honestly not having seat reservations on a plane is far worse than not having them on the train.