Deutsche Bahn and the Channel Tunnel?

[GingerSte]

Hi,

I've heard a rumour that Deutsche Bahn are planning on running one of the ICE trains through the Channel Tunnel, as a test.

Has anyone else heard this? If so, how serious are they on running services, and which services would they run?

I imagine it would run something like

• London – Lille – Brussels – Cologne – Hannover – Berlin (mainly business, possible extra services Monday to Thursday)
• London – Lille – Brussels – Cologne – Hannover – Hamburg (mainly business, possible extra services Monday to Thursday)
• London – Lille – Brussels – Cologne – Frankfurt – Munich (mainly business, possible extra services Monday to Thursday, extra services for Oktoberfest)

 

[richw]

already being discussed here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35114

 

[mickey]

I imagine it would run something like

• London – Lille – Brussels – Cologne – Hannover – Berlin (mainly business, possible extra services Monday to Thursday)
• London – Lille – Brussels – Cologne – Hannover – Hamburg (mainly business, possible extra services Monday to Thursday)
• London – Lille – Brussels – Cologne – Frankfurt – Munich (mainly business, possible extra services Monday to Thursday, extra services for Oktoberfest)

The only one they've ever talked about is Frankfurt, and I wouldn't expect there to be any beyond that in the first instance - they've got to prove demand first, not to mention make sure they can make it reliable. That said, within 18 months I would expect at least Berlin, probably Munich. Then Stuttgart (underserved by air but an important business destination) before Hamburg, (hopefully) eventually extending to Vienna (via Salzburg) and Warsaw.

 

[LE Greys]

Won't there be issues with Chunnel safety regulations. As I understand it, is should be possible to split the train and drive out backwards if necessary. Two units would not really count, you would have to be able to transfer from one to the other if something happened. However, in both fires and the Eurostar snow incident, I have seen no evidence of trains splitting or the failure rescue system working. Perhaps the regulations are not very effective.

 

[jon0844]

Won't there be issues with Chunnel safety regulations. As I understand it, is should be possible to split the train and drive out backwards if necessary. Two units would not really count, you would have to be able to transfer from one to the other if something happened. However, in both fires and the Eurostar snow incident, I have seen no evidence of trains splitting or the failure rescue system working. Perhaps the regulations are not very effective.

I believe that requirement has been, or will be, dropped.

 

[jopsuk]

LE Greys- as has been discussed elsewhere on here, the regulations are being/have been reviewed, as as you say splitting has never been used. DB do have sense- they would not be proposing what they are if the regulations would prevent it.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Willing to guess there will never be a Deutsche Bahn service to London.

How will UK border control staff and security check points operate at each of the stations en route ? There are check points already in place at Brussels and Lille, but what about Cologne, Aachen and Liege ?

And what about passengers who join the ICE train at Cologne and travel only as far as Brussels. Will they be subject to UK passport control along with pax who are travelling to London. Or will DB not attempt to carry passengers 'locally' ?

Deutsche Bahn would be better off buying a stake in Eurostar. They already own Arriva and GB Freight. Once they have some say in Eurostar, they can start co-ordinating their schedules at the Brussels hub and promote through fares.

Indeed, DB already sell one way fares for €49.

Through trains beyound Brussels....forget it.

 

[GingerSte]

The reason I put "extra services monday to thursday" is because this was part of an email I sent to a friend a while ago, exploring the possibility. It also included a service to Amsterdam which I considered would be predominantly leisure and probably warrant extra services on fridays and sundays.

 

[scandal]

How will UK border control staff and security check points operate at each of the stations en route ? There are check points already in place at Brussels and Lille, but what about Cologne, Aachen and Liege ?

And what about passengers who join the ICE train at Cologne and travel only as far as Brussels. Will they be subject to UK passport control along with pax who are travelling to London. Or will DB not attempt to carry passengers 'locally' ?

As I've said in the other thread there is no reason why the train can not be run as any normal Schengen International Train to Lille from anywhere as per Schengen. From Lille the UK Border Agency can request to board the train to check the persons on it (similar to the Swiss border patrols) before the train is allowed to depart non-stop to the UK. Passengers joining at Lille to the UK would be subject to UK Border Agency and Security as per Eurostar passengers.

Deutsche Bahn would be better off buying a stake in Eurostar. They already own Arriva and GB Freight. Once they have some say in Eurostar, they can start co-ordinating their schedules at the Brussels hub and promote through fares.

Eurostar have said they have no intention of expanding services. This is due to signalling and as a result will have to wait for the new breed of Eurostars to be built with more signalling options.

Through trains beyound Brussels....forget it.

Definatly so if you just want DB to buy a stake in Eurostar rather then operate their own services as allowed in the EU Liberation of International Rail travel.

 

[Metroland]

There is a test due in October.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...he-bahn-to-run-ice3-to-britain-this-year.html

The divide rules have been relaxed in the channel tunnel because international trains pass through tunnels nearly as long (as soon to be longer) in Switzerland.

In mainland Europe 100s of TGVs/ICEs/Railjets/Pendolinos/Eurocitys and other international trains run between countries every day. The only passport checks are to/from Swizerland, and the UK/Ireland, countries either non-EU or not part of the Schengen area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_area

Really the UK small loading gauge (outside HS1) and lack of ETCS leaves us at a disadvantage, I would have thought there would be a good case for the EU to pay to expand potential principal through routes and equip them with ETCS for true through freight and passenger trains as seen elsewhere, as they have paid for gauge conversion in Spain, Portugal, Latvia etc

BTW a London-Koln service is similar time wise to London-Edinburgh.

 

[Trog]

Interesting I thought the Germans were famous for building their stock with an eye to other peoples loading gauges?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I believe that requirement has been, or will be, dropped.

That is correct, but apparently they are not ( yet! ) planning on dropping the related awkward rule about train length!

 

[MCR247]

That is correct, but apparently they are not ( yet! ) planning on dropping the related awkward rule about train length!

But if two sets joined in Brussels (ie one from Amsterdam) would that work?

 

[jamesontheroad]

But if two sets joined in Brussels (ie one from Amsterdam) would that work?

No, because the idea behind the splitting train was that the entire passenger load could move into one half of the trainset and then be evacuated or safely propelled out of the tunnel. Without a gangway connection, that would not work.

But it's all academic, apparently, as they splitting train function is no longer necessary.

 

[LE Greys]

But if two sets joined in Brussels (ie one from Amsterdam) would that work?

That might handle the length problem, although there is always the possibility that somebody might end up in the wrong half of the train, and then they would have to sort it out at Brussels. However, that sort of thing tends to happen wherever. Obviously, James is right about the dividing trains issue (I had forgotten about the regulation amendment earlier).

 

[MCR247]

That might handle the length problem, although there is always the possibility that somebody might end up in the wrong half of the train, and then they would have to sort it out at Brussels. However, that sort of thing tends to happen wherever. Obviously, James is right about the dividing trains issue (I had forgotten about the regulation amendment earlier).

ICEs divide and split all of the time in Germany. Some of their trains would look like this in England
2x ICE leave Euston
Get to birmingham and split
1 goes via WCML the other via Derby
Join in Perth and go onto Inverness!

 

[EWS 58038]

That is correct, but apparently they are not ( yet! ) planning on dropping the related awkward rule about train length!

As a matter of fact they have. All you need is a fire resistent train that survives 20 minutes when a fire breaks out. It will probably be published in the next Eurotunnel network statement, if it hasn't been already.

As for the Amsterdam train. Will not happen, simply becouse ProRail is charging €69,95 for every HSL kilometer. Furthermore you need 32 normal kilometer which makes a totall of around €8.540 for every single leg between the Belgium border and Amsterdam.

 

[williamn]

People on here are so unrealistic! We are never going to see through trains to Berlin because it will be simply uneconomic. The journey has to be sub 4 hours to compete with a plane - Eurostar were said to be looking seriously at Amsterdam and had a team working on it. I can imagine DB could serve Cologne and Dusseldorf perhaps, but would imagine Frankfurt might me too far?

 

[j0hn0]

People on here are so unrealistic! We are never going to see through trains to Berlin because it will be simply uneconomic. The journey has to be sub 4 hours to compete with a plane - Eurostar were said to be looking seriously at Amsterdam and had a team working on it. I can imagine DB could serve Cologne and Dusseldorf perhaps, but would imagine Frankfurt might me too far?

hardly, considering that that it is 300kmh dedicated ICE3 high speed track between Cologne and Frankfurt and takes just 50 odd minutes.

You are right about Berlin though, there will not be an east bound NBS in Germany from Cologne for a long long time, if ever, meaning that the train has to pass through the Ruhr cities at a crawl.

There would have to be a new line from Cologne to Erfurt/Leipzig to make the Berlin connection work.

 

[Fincra5]

Its not unrealistic at all. The good thing is it may get some people away from planes, which overall is better for the environment. I dislike the pain of flying, at least with Eurostar and alike you don't have to wait around for ages before you can go and queue for your plane.

 

[EWS 58038]

Its not unrealistic at all. The good thing is it may get some people away from planes, which overall is better for the environment. I dislike the pain of flying, at least with Eurostar and alike you don't have to wait around for ages before you can go and queue for your plane.

A, it is unrealistic.
B, people will never start using the train in favour of the plane if journey times are above 4 hours.
C, running a train is far more expansive then operating an aircraft, this reflects in the ticket fare.
D, for an economic sensible train between London and Berlin your looking at £199,- ticket prices or above per single journey. And as you can fly for something like £50,- all included, people will never do it.

Please come out your wonderland and face reality.

 

[MCR247]

I disagre on point B, because I find people would get the train unless the journey is around 1 1/2 hours longer than the plane.

But what I think is that if DB, NS,SNCB,SNCF & the UK work together, would it not be possible to link up the UK to Europe properly by just joining and retiming existing services? Like joining London - Brussels & brussels - Frankfurt? Replacing a eurostar and an ICE3. So you basically have Frankfurt - Brussels extended to London every 2 or whatever hours

 

[EWS 58038]

Yes, but your not going to run an 18 coach train if an 8 coach ICE will do the job. Eurostar is looking for TMST replacement in sothing like 10 years. And the TMST is just not capable of handling the indussi and LZB sysytems as there's simply no room left in the train to install them.

The Velaro class 407 does have a cross channel pack and is capable of running to london out of the box. Which is cheaper then reconfiguring a few TMST sets.
Another good thing is the 407 can be used on domestic services as well, where a Eurostar set would occupy only valuable space in a depot. And a train which stands idle in the shed is a money loser.

Don't forget you can do 1 return leg a day per set only before timetabling becomes just to tight to allow for delays etc. So you need atleast 3 sets to have a three trains a day service, hwich is the minimum. Furthermore you need a spare one for maintenance porposes. So in fact you will need to have 5 trains or more.

The only time you will see a eurostar doing a service to Germany would be for a Euroilspeed conference.

 

[MCR247]

Yes, but your not going to run an 18 coach train if an 8 coach ICE will do the job. Eurostar is looking for TMST replacement in sothing like 10 years. And the TMST is just not capable of handling the indussi and LZB sysytems as there's simply no room left in the train to install them.

The Velaro class 407 does have a cross channel pack and is capable of running to london out of the box. Which is cheaper then reconfiguring a few TMST sets.
Another good thing is the 407 can be used on domestic services as well, where a Eurostar set would occupy only valuable space in a depot. And a train which stands idle in the shed is a money loser.

Don't forget you can do 1 return leg a day per set only before timetabling becomes just to tight to allow for delays etc. So you need atleast 3 sets to have a three trains a day service, hwich is the minimum. Furthermore you need a spare one for maintenance porposes. So in fact you will need to have 5 trains or more.

The only time you will see a eurostar doing a service to Germany would be for a Euroilspeed conference.

No, I meant the ICE would run through to London instead of the Eurostar

 

[starrymarkb]

Reason the split is being dropped was the sheer time it took - in tests it took ~20 mins to transfer passengers from one half to the other. In previous fires the OHLE didn't last that long!

 

[Legzr1]

They already own Arriva and GB Freight.

Are you sure about that?

 

[TGV]

Eurostar is looking for TMST replacement in sothing like 10 years.

That's a good one... state your source!

 

[EWS 58038]

I believe it was in Modern Railways a few months ago when Captain Deltic had an inteview with Eurostar senior management. Eurostar does expect competition on the route and does no longer require 18 car trains by then. But note, thats still something like 7 or 8 years from now. By that time SNCF will most likely take all TMTS sets for domestic services or other international services, like peak trains to Brussels or Amsterdam. I think they might even be the perfect solution for the Paris - Barcelona service.

 

[LE Greys]

It's unlikely that many people will travel all the way from London to Berlin, but there would certainly be a great many passengers joining and leaving en route. On Thursday, the entire population of Coach B on the 14:50 ABD-KGX changed, and I was the only one to run right through. The longest anyone else did was DUN-PET. Adding a service to Berlin would be more about prestige than practicality, linking up two capitals a very long way apart. There are some very long EuroCity services, Budapest-Hamburg for instance, and a train to London would be a very good way to make a point.

 

[TGV]

I believe it was in Modern Railways a few months ago when Captain Deltic had an inteview with Eurostar senior management. Eurostar does expect competition on the route and does no longer require 18 car trains by then. But note, thats still something like 7 or 8 years from now. By that time SNCF will most likely take all TMTS sets for domestic services or other international services, like peak trains to Brussels or Amsterdam. I think they might even be the perfect solution for the Paris - Barcelona service.

I think you'll find the existing fleet will soon enter a mid-life major upgrade and refurb program and will enter service for another 15 years.