Declined cards

[Flamingo]

Most InterCity operators now offer some form of on board WiFi. As I've stated previously I think the signal argument is bunkum and shouldn't be attempted as an excuse. Of course there will be stretches of line where you know there's no chance but to suggest this will be the case the majority of the time is not something which tallies with my own experience

What do you think the Wifi works on, mind waves?

I know where the signal does and does not work on the routes I work, and along which stretches one can get a phone signal but no mobile internet.

In my experience, which is every working day for 10 years, the signal along large stretches of the line, including between Reading and London, is very patchy. I know we need more up to date equipment, but that would not solve the problem - my iPhone is as up to date as there is, and that won't work either.

We only run the trains, somebody else made the decision on where the phone-masts went.

 

[LateThanNever]

Most InterCity operators now offer some form of on board WiFi. As I've stated previously I think the signal argument is bunkum and shouldn't be attempted as an excuse. Of course there will be stretches of line where you know there's no chance but to suggest this will be the case the majority of the time is not something which tallies with my own experience.


Banks aren't acting entirely in their own interest with online authorisations. As a customer, I want to see my transactions appear straight away (or as near as); and if dodgy stuff is going on I want to be made aware immediately.

But they are acting entirely in their own interest - any problems? the merchant gets clobbered. Not the bank - as ever - they pass it on. Dodgy stuff is not a liability for the cardholder or the banks but for the merchant - although the government have required the banks to investigate fraud I have letters to prove they don't - the merchant pays. (Though whether Tesco accepts this I doubt...)

 

[WestCoast]

I think when a new payment system is (eventually) brought in, the issue should be addressed. Long-term, I suspect this will come about through wider 3G/4G coverage and/or network-wide Wi-Fi availability.

I recently took a trip with an older family member from an unstaffed station, necessitating an onboard purchase. I paid with my Co-Operative Bank Visa Debit card, no problems, while her Santander Visa debit card declined. Turns out she has an offline card; she's got a steady job with a respectable salary and an apparently strong credit rating, while I'm a full-time student with a part-time job that helps support me. Yet I'm the one with the "proper" card . So don't expect much consistency from the banks...

On a separate (unrelated) note, I have another account with a Debit MasterCard. I use it when I'm abroad as the fees are nil or less than other banks (some of those in the banking sector might know the bank). I've had a few problems as a "Debit MasterCard" is fairly new to the UK and simply doesn't exist in many countries, it's either a Credit MasterCard or a Maestro. The payment systems seem to reject it if the merchant doesn't take credit cards (only debit) and it often doesn't appear as an option online! The systems take a while to "think" about it too....

I'd like a little more consistency in general moving forwards....

 

[WillPS]

This is at least partly incorrect. I have a Halifax Visa Electron card that is valid until 04/16 and works perfectly well.

That is most surprising. In the case of my housemate, the card was replaced well ahead of the Electron's expiration, and the Electron stopped working a couple of months later.

I've read online that the change was neccessitated by HBOS moving over to Lloyds' systems. Obviously that's rubbish.

What do you think the Wifi works on, mind waves?

I know where the signal does and does not work on the routes I work, and along which stretches one can get a phone signal but no mobile internet.

In my experience, which is every working day for 10 years, the signal along large stretches of the line, including between Reading and London, is very patchy. I know we need more up to date equipment, but that would not solve the problem - my iPhone is as up to date as there is, and that won't work either.

We only run the trains, somebody else made the decision on where the phone-masts went.

Right, so WiFi is offered even though the majority of the time it doesn't work? Pull the other one.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

That is most surprising. In the case of my housemate, the card was replaced well ahead of the Electron's expiration, and the Electron stopped working a couple of months later.

I've read online that the change was neccessitated by HBOS moving over to Lloyds' systems. Obviously that's rubbish.
Right, so WiFi is offered even though the majority of the time it doesn't work? Pull the other one.

That part about WiFi is true, Scotrail's WiFi is mobile broadband and Vodafone supply it, so if the signal drops out on it, then so will the connection.

 

[Starmill]

OF course it's true! The signals have got to get to the train somehow or other!
Virgin Trains and others produce a coverage map.

 

[MikeWh]

Having just travelled on the Ipswich to Beccles line today I can corroborate the patchiness of the signal. I also had trouble getting a signal of any sort on the bus between Beccles and Langley School, while it was non existent at the school. Basically the mobile operators concentrate on areas of significant population and main roads. In the sticks they just aren't interested.

 

[radamfi]

That is most surprising. In the case of my housemate, the card was replaced well ahead of the Electron's expiration, and the Electron stopped working a couple of months later.

Halifax still give you a Visa Electron if you open an Easycash account:

http://www.halifax.co.uk/bankaccounts/basic-bank-account/

I used to have one with my Cardcash account but that was replaced with a Visa Debit card. So I opened an Easycash account just for the Visa Electron card, just in case I needed it for plane tickets, for example. However, soon after I opened the account, differing charges for different debit cards were outlawed, so I have yet to find a use for the Electron card.

On a separate (unrelated) note, I have another account with a Debit MasterCard. I use it when I'm abroad as the fees are nil or less than other banks (some of those in the banking sector might know the bank). I've had a few problems as a "Debit MasterCard" is fairly new to the UK and simply doesn't exist in many countries, it's either a Credit MasterCard or a Maestro. The payment systems seem to reject it if the merchant doesn't take credit cards (only debit) and it often doesn't appear as an option online! The systems take a while to "think" about it too....

I have recently opened a Post Office current account as they give you a Maestro card rather than a Mastercard or Visa debit card, for use in countries where Debit Mastercard is not recognised and the only debit card accepted is Maestro.

Incidentally, easyBus charge a 50p card fee for all debit and credit cards, except Maestro, which obviously hardly anyone in the UK outside Northern Ireland has. I didn't think that was still allowed.

 

[Flamingo]

Right, so WiFi is offered even though the majority of the time it doesn't work? Pull the other one.

Eh, yes. As the punters on FGW are about to find out.

 

[34D]

By contrast, I would say there is a perfect cellphone signal on the ECML from Knebworth to North of York on the EE network - this includes Peascliff Tunnel and stoke bank.

 

[35B]

By contrast, I would say there is a perfect cellphone signal on the ECML from Knebworth to North of York on the EE network - this includes Peascliff Tunnel and stoke bank.

Could have fooled me! Laptop 3g up & down repeatedly between Newcastle & Grantham, and almost unusable between Claypole & Grantham. Voice signal is better.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Lots of this of course does depend on the network.

My company issued BlackBerry is on O2, which is shocking for coverage. There are large chunks of the routes I work where it can't be used for miles and minutes on end. Even in urban areas it is rubbish.

My personal phone is on EE and that works perfectly for most of the time with perfect coverage for most of the routes with only the odd black spot - basically the opposite of O2 which is rubbish with the odd spot where it works.

I was talking to an East Coast member of staff recently and they told me their company phones used to be on Vodafone and were ok and usable. Then they switched to O2 and apparently they are now useless for most of the route.

 

[WillPS]

OF course it's true! The signals have got to get to the train somehow or other!
Virgin Trains and others produce a coverage map.

I know that. What I'm saying is that WiFi wouldn't be offered if the signal was as useless as some members are making out.

Having just travelled on the Ipswich to Beccles line today I can corroborate the patchiness of the signal. I also had trouble getting a signal of any sort on the bus between Beccles and Langley School, while it was non existent at the school. Basically the mobile operators concentrate on areas of significant population and main roads. In the sticks they just aren't interested.

A patchy signal is fine. Just as now (by the looks of things) staff would have to get used to knowing when a signal is not likely to work and returning to those passengers. I'm not saying it'd be perfect 100% of the time, but I'm saying it would be a significant leap towards actually accepting the cards they claim they do.

Halifax still give you a Visa Electron if you open an Easycash account:

http://www.halifax.co.uk/bankaccounts/basic-bank-account/

I used to have one with my Cardcash account but that was replaced with a Visa Debit card. So I opened an Easycash account just for the Visa Electron card, just in case I needed it for plane tickets, for example. However, soon after I opened the account, differing charges for different debit cards were outlawed, so I have yet to find a use for the Electron card.

Give it a try. You'll get a Visa Debit card. Quoth somewhere else on the web:

Halifax do not now issue electron cards for ANY account. Their website states that you can get one with an easy cash account, but this is not the case. On application it states that you will get a visa debit card, not electron.

Although that said I can't explain Island's continued holding of one. Other card holders have had theirs replaced.

I have recently opened a Post Office current account as they give you a Maestro card rather than a Mastercard or Visa debit card, for use in countries where Debit Mastercard is not recognised and the only debit card accepted is Maestro.

Shouldn't it work anywhere as a normal MasterCard? That was my understanding... Even Aldi, Lidl and IKEA (who are the only mainstream retailers I know of who don't accept or charge extra for MasterCard) can take MC Debit as such...

Incidentally, easyBus charge a 50p card fee for all debit and credit cards, except Maestro, which obviously hardly anyone in the UK outside Northern Ireland has. I didn't think that was still allowed.

An EU Directive comes in to force soon, I don't know when the UK statute book will pick it up though.

 

[TheEdge]

A patchy signal is fine. Just as now (by the looks of things) staff would have to get used to knowing when a signal is not likely to work and returning to those passengers. I'm not saying it'd be perfect 100% of the time, but I'm saying it would be a significant leap towards actually accepting the cards they claim they do.

Two points. Firstly I can assume you've never tried to work a busy morning train? So now I have to do my revenue duties, note who has tried to pay but cant, assuming those are all due to offline authorisation problems (which isn't always the problem), carry on, remembering to keep an eye on phone signal, the train, other passengers so I can get back to them. Obviously thats ignoring the fact I'm also dealing with all the new passengers that have got on and the fact I can't teleport so when I notice the phone signal is back I walk back to passenger A, by this point I've travelled half a mile and now no phone signal.

Also, as has been pointed out, just because there is phone signal doesn't mean there is mobile internet. Just because you have full bars doesn't mean its going to work, full 2G signal isn't going to get you any internet connection.

 

[Haywain]

I know that. What I'm saying is that WiFi wouldn't be offered if the signal was as useless as some members are making out.

Is that the real world you're living in? East Coast wifi is shockingly unreliable.

 

[bb21]

Although that said I can't explain Island's continued holding of one. Other card holders have had theirs replaced.

My Visa Electron from Halifax is not yet replaced either.

 

[radamfi]

Give it a try. You'll get a Visa Debit card. Quoth somewhere else on the web:

That quotation is dated June 2012. I got my Easycash Electron card in August 2012. Although as I say, I haven't found a use for my Electron card so I needn't have bothered getting it.

Although that said I can't explain Island's continued holding of one. Other card holders have had theirs replaced.

Mine was replaced and I was told the Electron card would cease to work shortly afterwards, which was the case. Hence my application for an Easycash account. I already had a Reward Current Account with a Visa Debit card so the Cardcash account became redundant.

Shouldn't it work anywhere as a normal MasterCard? That was my understanding... Even Aldi, Lidl and IKEA (who are the only mainstream retailers I know of who don't accept or charge extra for MasterCard) can take MC Debit as such...

There is no problem in the UK. There is only a problem when trying to use Mastercard Debit outside the UK. For example, Dutch Railways only accept Maestro and Mastercard Debit doesn't work.

An EU Directive comes in to force soon, I don't know when the UK statute book will pick it up though.

I thought that was already in force, which is why Ryanair etc. have cut their card fees?

 

[Tetchytyke]

By contrast, I would say there is a perfect cellphone signal on the ECML from Knebworth to North of York on the EE network - this includes Peascliff Tunnel and stoke bank.

It must depend on whether you're Orange or T-Mobile.

My Orange signal is patchy between Newcastle and Darlington, is good between Darlington and York except for a duff bit near Thirsk, is good again as far as Retford and is then very patchy between Retford and Peterborough. It's only south of Huntingdon it is reliable, and then once south of Knebworth the tunnels cause a problem.

EC WiFi is a joke, too.

A 3G/4G SIM in the cardreader would be a good start, but wouldn't solve everything, I agree. But the SIM won't be coming in any time soon, I have heard that the manufacturers of Avantix (those charming souls at ATOS) want comedy money to make the change.

The real solution would be to go full-circle and put ticketing back on the platform.

At what point did credit/debit cards start being accepted on board?

I'd say it was the late 80s/early 90s, the PORTIS machines took card payments- the guard swiped down the side of the machine and took a signature.

 

[WillPS]

Two points. Firstly I can assume you've never tried to work a busy morning train? So now I have to do my revenue duties, note who has tried to pay but cant, assuming those are all due to offline authorisation problems (which isn't always the problem), carry on, remembering to keep an eye on phone signal, the train, other passengers so I can get back to them. Obviously thats ignoring the fact I'm also dealing with all the new passengers that have got on and the fact I can't teleport so when I notice the phone signal is back I walk back to passenger A, by this point I've travelled half a mile and now no phone signal.

Also, as has been pointed out, just because there is phone signal doesn't mean there is mobile internet. Just because you have full bars doesn't mean its going to work, full 2G signal isn't going to get you any internet connection.

"Online" doesn't necessarily mean using the internet. Some devices I believe dialup (and take longer). This might be something the banks are phasing out; I don't know. But imagine this - a dual SIM device, probably carrying EE and another network. Is it really beyond the realms of possibility that this would work most of the time? Perhaps reliably enough to go back to the customer after serving the next one or two? I'd say so. Worth a try, even?

In any case this refusenik attitude is obviously prevalent throughout the industry as no such trial has taken place to the best of my knowledge.

Is that the real world you're living in? East Coast wifi is shockingly unreliable.

I know. I tend to use 3G which, apart from tunnels, performs pretty well.

That quotation is dated June 2012. I got my Easycash Electron card in August 2012. Although as I say, I haven't found a use for my Electron card so I needn't have bothered getting it.



Mine was replaced and I was told the Electron card would cease to work shortly afterwards, which was the case. Hence my application for an Easycash account. I already had a Reward Current Account with a Visa Debit card so the Cardcash account became redundant.



There is no problem in the UK. There is only a problem when trying to use Mastercard Debit outside the UK. For example, Dutch Railways only accept Maestro and Mastercard Debit doesn't work.



I thought that was already in force, which is why Ryanair etc. have cut their card fees?

Fair enough - like I say it's been a long time since I've seen one but it's also been a long time now since I worked in retail, so my sightings of cards are generally far fewer.

 

[anme]

This conversation seems to be going round in unhelpful circles. The facts, which I hope everyone can agree on are:
- Mobile data coverage is available in the UK, but not everywhere has coverage (especially on a moving train). Most (all?) routes go through areas with coverage and areas without.
- If the railway upgraded onboard equipment to support online authorisation, it would allow *some* additional card transactions to be authorised and paid, but not *all*. So it would reduce the problem to some degree, but not eleminate it.

So the question is whether it's worth the effort and cost of upgrading the equipment, given the improvement it would bring - which is related to the amount of time sufficient mobile data coverage would be available.

Also, as has been pointed out, just because there is phone signal doesn't mean there is mobile internet. Just because you have full bars doesn't mean its going to work, full 2G signal isn't going to get you any internet connection.

2G networks do support data access, although slower than 3G. A reasonable 2G signal should be good enough for card authorisation.

 

[island]

I'd say it was the late 80s/early 90s, the PORTIS machines took card payments- the guard swiped down the side of the machine and took a signature.

I think that was SPORTIS which came a bit later.

 

[Haywain]

2G networks do support data access, although slower than 3G. A reasonable 2G signal should be good enough for card authorisation.

Bear in mind that the data would need to be encrypted to meet credit card security requirements, so would 2G still be good enough?

 

[WillPS]

So the question is whether it's worth the effort and cost of upgrading the equipment, given the improvement it would bring - which is related to the amount of time sufficient mobile data coverage would be available.

It could be done or at least trialled with minimal changes to Avantix. I've seen places which have "gone online" by simply using a completely external all-in-one card reader/printer/PIN entry pad unit.

They then just swipe the card on their (old) till, which skips authorisation.

Essentially, all they'd need to do is stop the Avantix from doing any authorisation by itself - or add a separate payment option like "External EFT". They could even go the whole hog and start doing contactless payments this way.

EDITED TO ADD: presumably they could even retain the current offline authorisation card authorisation (via Avantix) doing the separate payment option - although I'm not sure if the rule Island referred to would prevent that. It would also mean they'd have to carry another piece of equipment in addition to their existing PIN pad rather than instead of; which I accept wouldn't be ideal.

It wont happen though.

Bear in mind that the data would need to be encrypted to meet credit card security requirements, so would 2G still be good enough?

Yes. How much data do you think encryption adds? As a quick example, compare the secure (HTTPS) version of a website to a normal (HTTP) version. I know it's not the exact same but it illustrates the difference.

 

[transmanche]

Bear in mind that the data would need to be encrypted to meet credit card security requirements, so would 2G still be good enough?

Yes, of course. There are lots of mobile card terminals which work quite happily on 2G networks.

I've worked on building software designed to process card payments.The number of bytes needed to process a card transaction is trivial - the equivalent of a couple of text messages.

 

[thelongestroad]

Some customers are genuine.. they genuinely don't realise their cards are offline but some know they are. It's quite amusing to be presented with a cashcard (for an ATM) and get told to "swipe it" by someone... but that's another story.

I'm not entirely sure what percentage of the tickets that I sell which I've had to manually type/swype in have resulted in my TOC getting the money.. quite frankly I don't understand how it works or the correct procedure. But I guess it's better to attempt to get the money and hopefully be successful rather than not bothering at all.

 

[Flamingo]

I usually ring for manual authorisation, probably 10-20% are declined.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Some customers are genuine.. they genuinely don't realise their cards are offline but some know they are. It's quite amusing to be presented with a cashcard (for an ATM) and get told to "swipe it" by someone... but that's another story.

Will those even work if swiped?

 

[thelongestroad]

Will those even work if swiped?

I don't know, I don't touch them or even bother. But they carry no VISA logo or whatever.. they are purely LINK ATM cards. But I did have some individual insist I type the numbers in "because it works in the shops".. which is obviously a load of rubbish.

Neither do I touch Visa Electrons.. I understand they can't be swiped either?

Depends on what line, not too good a signal in the Severn Tunnel!

Use the GSMR?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I don't know if Visa Electrons can be swiped (do they even have a magnetic strip?) but I know they certainly mustn't be

 

[GaryMcEwan]

I had an Electron card about 8 years ago and it got swiped with no problems whatsoever if the chip wouldn't read in the chip & pin machine...