Declined cards

[34D]

Let's go back to Visa Delta and Visa Electron!

Seriously though, a four page thread about trying to deal with a problem that is ENTIRELY of the railways' own making, but by trying to deal with it by asking banks etc to change.

What we need is the handheld terminal on board the train to connect with either a 3G network and/or a wireless LAN.

Alternatively to _mandate_ the use of 'stored balance' PAYG smartcards for all 'no open ticket office' situations.

 

[TheEdge]

The Solo card scheme ended completely. Its 'trusted' analogue Switch (later Maestro UK) is now rare, only issued by Clydesdale and Yorkshire on their Student accounts I believe.

Electron cards are no longer issued by banks in Britain.

Visa Debit is a completely different proposition and is advertised as accepted by the railways.

The move towards Visa Debit cards not always being authorisable offline was well prepared for (as early as whenever the Chip & PIN spec was announced if not earlier).

The fact Solo and Electron cards are specifically excluded from being authorised for use universally is neither here nor there; they effectively do not exist any more (in the UK at least).

I stand corrected. Didn't realise they were discontinued. Carry on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What we need is the handheld terminal on board the train to connect with either a 3G network and/or a wireless LAN.

Which requires a phone signal.

Its all good and well in a shop where you can plug it in to the wall or even out and about but not moving anywhere quickly so can hunt for a signal but on a train, doing 100, through cuttings, tunnels, bridges and the countryside is a different matter.

Let me use the East Suffolk Line as an example close to me. It has a surprisingly large percentage of people who use cards to pay on the train. There are vast areas along the line where there isn't even the signal to send a text, let alone go through the full authentication process for a debit card. If I have my phone to hand along there I can watch the signal dropping out and coming back multiple times over a couple of hundred metres. I wouldn't be able to accept any card payments between Oulton Broad and Beccles, there is simply no signal.

And its not necessarily a countryside thing either. Those who know the GEML will know between Manor Park and Stratford you run in a fairly shallow brick sided cutting. If I try to check tube services there for my announcement at Stratford most of the time there is no signal in that cutting.

Its not just a matter of sticking a sim card in the Thyron machines.

 

[WillPS]

The whole signal debate is bunkum. You can set the machines to allow offline authorisation for transactions under X, so as a fall back with areas with no signal they'd behave as they do now.

The railways will continue to ignore the issue, honest customers will be treated as though they've done something wrong by attempting to pay with a method advertised as accepted and dishonest customers will find ways of abusing the loopholes the railway companies are leaving *wide open*. It's all par for the course.

 

[Emyr]

Recently, Knutsford ticket office has had an IT upgrade and now supports Contactless payments.

The automated machine installed by Northern Rail on the other hand

• worst touchscreens ever
• underspecified processing power so you're never sure if it's a slow response or an undetected poke
• the casing always seems hot to the touch which makes no sense with an underpowered chip
• the smooth interior ticket tray makes tickets hard to get a hold of and the flap makes it even harder
• the screen for the card terminal is obscured if you're over 5 feet tall
• if no change is available, they refuse to accept even 5p overpayment (might fund some minor improvements?)
• the machine at Knutsford is beyond the door where the Revenue Protector stands

...all for the privilege of minimising your interaction with the guard who's already spent 4 hours on a Pacer or 150.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Seriously though, a four page thread about trying to deal with a problem that is ENTIRELY of the railways' own making, but by trying to deal with it by asking banks etc to change.

Indeed.

It isn't even on-board either. TVMs operated by, among others, East Coast and London Midland will accept my Co-Operative Visa Debit card. Northern TVMs will not. Even Northern ticket offices struggle with the card. Whose fault is that? Other TOCs can cope with the ticket absolutely fine.

Solo and Electron no longer exist, the brands were withdrawn by MasterCard and Visa respectively. It's like saying the railways don't accept Luncheon Vouchers; of course they don't, the product no longer exists.

 

[Smudger105e]

Could a 'phone line for terminals not be accessed via the drivers' GSM-R radio?

 

[TheEdge]

The whole signal debate is bunkum. You can set the machines to allow offline authorisation for transactions under X, so as a fall back with areas with no signal they'd behave as they do now.

What do we set the limit as? £10, £20, £50, £100? Or do we do it dynamically dependant on the route? A max of £10 will cover pretty much any single fare (and most returns) between Norwich and Great Yarmouth or Lowestoft but East Suffolk Line or Norwich to Cambridge, back at square 1. Then we start getting the issue of people having a card work one day when they bought a peak time ticket but the next day it doesn't because they buy an off peak. Or we get people who are unable to buy a return but can only buy a single.

All you are offering is a more ass about face way of coming to exactly the same place as we already are, that being some cards decline when there is no internet connection.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could a 'phone line for terminals not be accessed via the drivers' GSM-R radio?

I think use of the GSM-R bandwidth for a few non driver based reasons has been suggested by various parties and my understanding is it always comes back as the railways would prefer GSM-R to be kept as purely a operational comms system.

 

[WillPS]

What do we set the limit as? £10, £20, £50, £100? Or do we do it dynamically dependant on the route? A max of £10 will cover pretty much any single fare (and most returns) between Norwich and Great Yarmouth or Lowestoft but East Suffolk Line or Norwich to Cambridge, back at square 1. Then we start getting the issue of people having a card work one day when they bought a peak time ticket but the next day it doesn't because they buy an off peak. Or we get people who are unable to buy a return but can only buy a single.

All you are offering is a more ass about face way of coming to exactly the same place as we already are, that being some cards decline when there is no internet connection.

No, I'm not. To suggest that this would have no effect on the amount of transactions which authorise correctly is total rubbish as well you know. I can't speak for the East Suffolk Line but I'm regularly and out and about using my laptop. No, it doesn't work in tunnels and yes, there are sometimes 5 minutes which go by without a connection. The majority of the time there is *something*. A card transaction authorisation involves just a few kb of data.

If the East Suffolk line literally has no connection available for the majority of its length, then it is in the minority.

The limit would be whatever the card is authorised to do offline. If that's nothing, and there is no connection, then no dice - try again in a min. You cannot seriously try and claim that this method would result in nothing other than what already authorises...

 

[Flamingo]

I fail to see how the banks having protocols in place that mean their cards can be declined regardless of the account balance, and either burying this information in the small print or not mentioning it at all to their customer, is the fault of the railway.

We do accept the cards, subject to bank authorisation. The banks have certain cards set to not authorise in certain circumstances which they are aware of, and expect their customers (who include the railway and other merchants) to accept this as not the banks problem. In effect, the banks are expecting the railway to not get paid so the bank can minimise their own risk.

 

[Deerfold]

Solo and Electron no longer exist, the brands were withdrawn by MasterCard and Visa respectively. It's like saying the railways don't accept Luncheon Vouchers; of course they don't, the product no longer exists.

You might want to tell the 33,000 outlets in this country that take them that they no longer exist.

http://www.edenred.co.uk/our-solutions/employee-benefits/luncheon-vouchers/

 

[Haywain]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, according to my bank it is not their responsibility to tell me that my card will not work, or why, until I choose to ask them, and they do not believe that the merchant should know anything more than that the transaction has been declined. How on earth is all this the fault of "the railway"?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I fail to see how the banks having protocols in place that mean their cards can be declined regardless of the account balance.

The cards are not "declined", they request verbal authorisation when an online authorisation is not received. I don't know how Avantix displays this message though. Probably by saying "declined".

The issue is that the railways bought hand-held ticketing equipment that is, to use a technical term, a pile of junk. A very expensive pile of junk that they're stuck with, even though it has less technology in it than a cheap smartphone.

You might want to tell the 33,000 outlets in this country that take them that they no longer exist.

http://www.edenred.co.uk/our-solutions/employee-benefits/luncheon-vouchers/

Edenred shouldn't count

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think WillPS's suggestion was that every transaction is authorised online, unless there is no signal in which case it is authorised using the traditional method or a "Try again later" message appears if the card disagrees.

I fail to see how the banks having protocols in place that mean their cards can be declined regardless of the account balance, and either burying this information in the small print or not mentioning it at all to their customer, is the fault of the railway.

I'd say that it's more of a historical vestige than the fault of any party, but it's easy to see why people think otherwise when the cards in question work with every merchant other than the railway.

At any rate, the railway should be investing in 3G chip-and-PIN readers, or otherwise moving towards the cessation of on-train ticket sales. Banks are not going to start authorising transactions carte blanche for people without overdrafts.

 

[Flamingo]

They are declined. That's the message we receive. If we thee proceed to verbal authorisation, there is a charge from the bank for this.

There are numerous issues around verbal authorisation, not least of which is the banks own system is pretty crap, and often ends up transferring you to "Steve from Pontifract" in a call centre in Mumbai, and then trying to deal with somebody a continent away on a crap phone line.

The banks have no interest in improving their system as they get paid for the authorisation call, and if the merchant is unable to make the call for whatever reason, it's not the bank losing money, but the merchant.

Edited to add; 3G chip and pin readers are a nice idea, but as I can't even get a mobile phone signal for significant portions of the routes I work, they won't make much difference, I'm afraid.

I suppose somebody will be saying next that the TOC's should be building a new 4G network running alongside the railway lines to avoid this.

 

[LateThanNever]

I fail to see how the banks having protocols in place that mean their cards can be declined regardless of the account balance, and either burying this information in the small print or not mentioning it at all to their customer, is the fault of the railway.

We do accept the cards, subject to bank authorisation. The banks have certain cards set to not authorise in certain circumstances which they are aware of, and expect their customers (who include the railway and other merchants) to accept this as not the banks problem. In effect, the banks are expecting the railway to not get paid so the bank can minimise their own risk.

As you sort of indicate, this is no more than the banks expect of any business. The banks accept no losses but just charge them back to their customer (ie the company taking the card).
The only bit the banks refund is their commission when they charge back!
Would have thought that train companies are large enough to take banks to task and insist on a improved system. I wonder if any have tried?
Tesco is rumoured to be one of the few companies that were paid by the banks for taking cards - rather than having to pay the banks a commission. But of course nowadays they have their own bank so could 'legitimately' take a fee.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't know, maybe some member who works in the banking industry can come on to defend their policy.

 

[transmanche]

I suppose somebody will be saying next that the TOC's should be building a new 4G network running alongside the railway lines to avoid this.

No, but they could use the 2G network that the railway has built/is building alongside the railway lines.

The amount of bandwidth that's needed to authorise a card transaction is tiny.

 

[Flamingo]

Outside of my area of expertise, I'm afraid.

 

[island]

No, I'm not. To suggest that this would have no effect on the amount of transactions which authorise correctly is total rubbish as well you know. I can't speak for the East Suffolk Line but I'm regularly and out and about using my laptop. No, it doesn't work in tunnels and yes, there are sometimes 5 minutes which go by without a connection. The majority of the time there is *something*. A card transaction authorisation involves just a few kb of data.

If the East Suffolk line literally has no connection available for the majority of its length, then it is in the minority.

The limit would be whatever the card is authorised to do offline. If that's nothing, and there is no connection, then no dice - try again in a min. You cannot seriously try and claim that this method would result in nothing other than what already authorises...

This can't be done. A chip & PIN merchant terminal is either online or offline. It can't switch from being one to the other depending on whether you have signal.

I don't know, maybe some member who works in the banking industry can come on to defend their policy.

Hi

I work for a bank where either you have a normal account which has a contactless card, offline transactions, and all that jazz, or a basic account, which doesn't. If we're only able to offer a customer a basic account for some reason (e.g. they are recently arrived from outside the EU, have no credit history, etc.), we tell them, and explain what that means. I can't speak for other banks or their policies and processes. (Nor for that matter can I officially speak for my employer, and I do not.)

Avantix Mobile is 12-year old technology. The banking industry has moved on considerably in that time, and in fact provides several accommodations to the travel industry (rail and air) which were withdrawn from the average merchant some time ago. This includes the right to perform offline transactions up to a floor limit.

12 years ago, if you had poor credit or were bankrupt etc., you would have been refused a bank account, or possibly given one with just an ATM card (as all ATM transactions have always been online). The advances in technology and process meant that this improved into allowing them an online-only debit card. These were originally branded Visa Electron and Solo. The Solo scheme was closed some years ago and banks have mostly chosen to move on from Visa Electron, although cards remain in circulation and are still issued by a small number of banks, such as Halifax.

I've tried to present the facts as neutrally as possible so people can draw their own conclusions. I am not about to point fingers as neither side is blameless.

 

[34D]

At what point did credit/debit cards start being accepted on board?

The class 101 (et al) paytrains that I remember from my childhood used almex machines which didn't have a card facility. At this point, tickets from the station were on white and red stock.

 

[Starmill]

Recently, Knutsford ticket office has had an IT upgrade and now supports Contactless payments.

The automated machine installed by Northern Rail on the other hand

• worst touchscreens ever
• underspecified processing power so you're never sure if it's a slow response or an undetected poke
• the casing always seems hot to the touch which makes no sense with an underpowered chip
• the smooth interior ticket tray makes tickets hard to get a hold of and the flap makes it even harder
• the screen for the card terminal is obscured if you're over 5 feet tall
• if no change is available, they refuse to accept even 5p overpayment (might fund some minor improvements?)
• the machine at Knutsford is beyond the door where the Revenue Protector stands

...all for the privilege of minimising your interaction with the guard who's already spent 4 hours on a Pacer or 150.

The SHOCKINGLY POOR quality of the Parkeon machines installed here there and everywhere by Northern as, most likely, simply the cheapest option rather than one that actually benefits the Railway and it's users is a tale of woe well documented on here.

But, at the very least, they do all take cards!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would an attempt at mobile connection really make it worse? Surely it simply allows the cards which are already accepted plus a few that aren't in certain situations? Edit: obvously not sorry, I see now.

People seem to want a cut and dry 100% solution to the problem. Well I can think of one: withdraw all cards as accepted methods of payment by ATOC TOCs.

 

[Haywain]

[*]the screen for the card terminal is obscured if you're over 5 feet tall

That is becoming standard now at ATMs as well. It's all about being user friendly for the disabled*, which is fine if you are not disabled by a bad back and can't bend!

* I have no problem with making things usable by disabled people, but this does seem to be excessive.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I don't think the solution needs to be the same across all TOCs. It might make sense for one with connectivity to take cards but the others to not, as long as it was clear which did which.

I was under the impression that GSM-R has provision for non-critical comms. It would be perfect if it could be used for card authorisation

 

[WillPS]

I fail to see how the banks having protocols in place that mean their cards can be declined regardless of the account balance, and either burying this information in the small print or not mentioning it at all to their customer, is the fault of the railway.

We do accept the cards, subject to bank authorisation. The banks have certain cards set to not authorise in certain circumstances which they are aware of, and expect their customers (who include the railway and other merchants) to accept this as not the banks problem. In effect, the banks are expecting the railway to not get paid so the bank can minimise their own risk.

They are declined. That's the message we receive. If we thee proceed to verbal authorisation, there is a charge from the bank for this.

There are numerous issues around verbal authorisation, not least of which is the banks own system is pretty crap, and often ends up transferring you to "Steve from Pontifract" in a call centre in Mumbai, and then trying to deal with somebody a continent away on a crap phone line.

The banks have no interest in improving their system as they get paid for the authorisation call, and if the merchant is unable to make the call for whatever reason, it's not the bank losing money, but the merchant.

Edited to add; 3G chip and pin readers are a nice idea, but as I can't even get a mobile phone signal for significant portions of the routes I work, they won't make much difference, I'm afraid.

I suppose somebody will be saying next that the TOC's should be building a new 4G network running alongside the railway lines to avoid this.

Most InterCity operators now offer some form of on board WiFi. As I've stated previously I think the signal argument is bunkum and shouldn't be attempted as an excuse. Of course there will be stretches of line where you know there's no chance but to suggest this will be the case the majority of the time is not something which tallies with my own experience.

As you sort of indicate, this is no more than the banks expect of any business. The banks accept no losses but just charge them back to their customer (ie the company taking the card).
The only bit the banks refund is their commission when they charge back!
Would have thought that train companies are large enough to take banks to task and insist on a improved system. I wonder if any have tried?
Tesco is rumoured to be one of the few companies that were paid by the banks for taking cards - rather than having to pay the banks a commission. But of course nowadays they have their own bank so could 'legitimately' take a fee.

Tesco issue MasterCards, and represent a relatively small MasterCard provider. MasterCard themselves will negotiate the fee with Tesco Stores; representing Tesco Bank and others. (Unless Tesco bypass MasterCard to authorise their own cards; like how Barclay merchants bypass Visa to authorise Barclaycard/Connect cards.)

Banks aren't acting entirely in their own interest with online authorisations. As a customer, I want to see my transactions appear straight away (or as near as); and if dodgy stuff is going on I want to be made aware immediately.

As I've said several times, if the Railways want to continue to accept Visa, they need to have the correct equipment and procedures in place. I think the current situation, where people are being told then can use their Visa Debit card when in many cases they cannot is unacceptable.

This can't be done. A chip & PIN merchant terminal is either online or offline. It can't switch from being one to the other depending on whether you have signal.

I've no reason to disbelieve you, but if true this seems a rather ludicrous rule! Plenty of places still have a manual imprint machine to use if their card machine dies (my credit card was used for exactly such a transaction week before last). At least 'offline' there's an electronic record taken at the time of transaction that can later be synced.

Can you shed any light on the reasoning?

I work for a bank where either you have a normal account which has a contactless card, offline transactions, and all that jazz, or a basic account, which doesn't. If we're only able to offer a customer a basic account for some reason (e.g. they are recently arrived from outside the EU, have no credit history, etc.), we tell them, and explain what that means. I can't speak for other banks or their policies and processes. (Nor for that matter can I officially speak for my employer, and I do not.)

Avantix Mobile is 12-year old technology. The banking industry has moved on considerably in that time, and in fact provides several accommodations to the travel industry (rail and air) which were withdrawn from the average merchant some time ago. This includes the right to perform offline transactions up to a floor limit.

12 years ago, if you had poor credit or were bankrupt etc., you would have been refused a bank account, or possibly given one with just an ATM card (as all ATM transactions have always been online). The advances in technology and process meant that this improved into allowing them an online-only debit card. These were originally branded Visa Electron and Solo. The Solo scheme was closed some years ago and banks have mostly chosen to move on from Visa Electron, although cards remain in circulation and are still issued by a small number of banks, such as Halifax.

I've tried to present the facts as neutrally as possible so people can draw their own conclusions. I am not about to point fingers as neither side is blameless.

Halifax do not issue Electron cards, despite some wording on their website suggesting they do. The last Halifax Electron cards were replaced by Visa Debit cards (raised numerals and all) around this time last year. The leaflet that came with accompanying cards went as far as to say "you'll be able to enjoy using your Visa Debit card everywhere you could use your Electron card aswell as anywhere that accepts Visa" (or words to that effect). Even their very basic account comes with a Visa Debit card.

The Visa Electron card is *not* issued by any of the main banks. Airdrie Savings Bank may still issue them but their operations are extremely localised and it's just as likely that their website is out of date. In fact, I can't actually find a prepaid card issuer still using Electron in the UK, suggesting to me the scheme is no longer available at all; much like Solo (although Solo was never available abroad).

 

[transmanche]

In fact, I can't actually find a prepaid card issuer still using Electron in the UK, suggesting to me the scheme is no longer available at all; much like Solo (although Solo was never available abroad).

There's no mention of Electron cards on the Visa UK or Visa Europe websites. So it does look like they've gone the journey.

 

[fowler9]

This can't be done. A chip & PIN merchant terminal is either online or offline. It can't switch from being one to the other depending on whether you have signal.


Hi

I work for a bank where either you have a normal account which has a contactless card, offline transactions, and all that jazz, or a basic account, which doesn't. If we're only able to offer a customer a basic account for some reason (e.g. they are recently arrived from outside the EU, have no credit history, etc.), we tell them, and explain what that means. I can't speak for other banks or their policies and processes. (Nor for that matter can I officially speak for my employer, and I do not.)

Avantix Mobile is 12-year old technology. The banking industry has moved on considerably in that time, and in fact provides several accommodations to the travel industry (rail and air) which were withdrawn from the average merchant some time ago. This includes the right to perform offline transactions up to a floor limit.

12 years ago, if you had poor credit or were bankrupt etc., you would have been refused a bank account, or possibly given one with just an ATM card (as all ATM transactions have always been online). The advances in technology and process meant that this improved into allowing them an online-only debit card. These were originally branded Visa Electron and Solo. The Solo scheme was closed some years ago and banks have mostly chosen to move on from Visa Electron, although cards remain in circulation and are still issued by a small number of banks, such as Halifax.

I've tried to present the facts as neutrally as possible so people can draw their own conclusions. I am not about to point fingers as neither side is blameless.

I opened my account with Nat West as a fee paying none basic account and got an online only card. A few years later I changed it to a basic no fee no overdraught account as I was on the dole and when my online only card expired I was given a new card with all the bells and whistles. Go figure.

 

[WillPS]

I opened my account with Nat West as a fee paying none basic account and got an online only card. A few years later I changed it to a basic no fee no overdraught account as I was on the dole and when my online only card expired I was given a new card with all the bells and whistles. Go figure.

You were underage or did not have a sufficient credit record?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

You were underage or did not have a sufficient credit record?

I was also in this position with NatWest. I took the Select Silver Account which was meant to come with Contactless card and offline ability. They only gave a blue online card, subsequently I took NatWest to the Ombudsman and subsequently they had to give me the correct card.

NatWest do not make it clear that there are two types of Select Silver account. One if you do not have enough credit to get the full benefits and the other one giving you full benefits. They admitted that they gave me the wrong card in error.

 

[fowler9]

You were underage or did not have a sufficient credit record?

I was 36 and had been working none stop for 12 years following my degree and had a credit record to match.

 

[island]

I've no reason to disbelieve you, but if true this seems a rather ludicrous rule! Plenty of places still have a manual imprint machine to use if their card machine dies (my credit card was used for exactly such a transaction week before last). At least 'offline' there's an electronic record taken at the time of transaction that can later be synced.

Can you shed any light on the reasoning?

Essentially the card networks do not want offline transactions at all. Some still exist. Some very trusted merchants retain a floor limit but it is quite rare. I don't know the exact logic but will try to have a chat with a colleague who works directly with cards.

Manual imprinters still exist and can be used as a backup. Officially all transactions on them have to be telephone authorised otherwise the transaction is at the merchant's risk.

Halifax do not issue Electron cards, despite some wording on their website suggesting they do. The last Halifax Electron cards were replaced by Visa Debit cards (raised numerals and all) around this time last year. The leaflet that came with accompanying cards went as far as to say "you'll be able to enjoy using your Visa Debit card everywhere you could use your Electron card aswell as anywhere that accepts Visa" (or words to that effect). Even their very basic account comes with a Visa Debit card.

The Visa Electron card is *not* issued by any of the main banks. .

This is at least partly incorrect. I have a Halifax Visa Electron card that is valid until 04/16 and works perfectly well.