Declined cards

[fowler9]

This thread has really made me want to know if my cards would work! I don't understand these things :/ It's just a thing in my house that we always have a few quid 'for the train' whenever we go to get on it (although now we have a card-only ticket machine things have changed a little) and I tend to pay with cash or ToD in advance of travelling in any case.

But I have a student bank account with a debit card and a student credit card that came with it (they said that passing the credit check to open the account automatically meant I'd passed it for the credit card as well, so I have it and I have used it, but do not do so as a matter of course). My debit card is the silver HSBC 'styalised world' one described by TheEdge... but if that does not work would I be in the incredibly odd situation of the credit card working but the debit card not!? Or perhaps, given that it is a student credit card with a limit so low it is basically pointless anyway, it, also, would not handle an offline transaction.

No way to find out without p*****g off a guard though unfortunately!

When I went to Uni Barclays gave me a no questions asked credit card, I mean, giving a credit card to someone when they have no provable regular income with no questions asked!!! Please!!! It was paid off some years later along with all of the charges for late payment.
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That seems like poor customer service! When I tried to use my card in The Philippines (having stupidly not informed my bank in advance), it declined, but I immediately got an automated phone call from the bank detailing the attempted transaction and asking if it was genuine. The card was instantly unblocked once I verified this.

When I went travelling we contacted Nat West to tell them where we were going and they said they had no way of noting this and if/when the card got blocked to contact them. To be fair they were very quick unblocking the card when it happened.

 

[user15681]

I've had my Lloyds card accepted once before, which I was very surprised about.

I'll never forget two blatant fare evaders (trying to play fools and say they didn't realise they couldn't use their EUS-MAN ticket for their journey from MAN-EUS) have their cards turned down because they were from some Nigerian bank. As soon as they produced them I thought to myself, that ain't going to work.

 

[Flamingo]

When I went to Uni Barclays gave me a no questions asked credit card, I mean, giving a credit card to someone when they have no provable regular income with no questions asked!!! Please!!! It was paid off some years later along with all of the charges for late payment.

And people complain the Railways have a cynical business model...

 

[Deerfold]

Odd, on Monday I bought a new phone with my card and tried to buy a top-up online for it which declined. Halifax called my home phone number every time I tried to however, and other purchases still worked (as I just went to a corner shop to buy a top-up voucher instead, defeating the purpose ) - but I could still use my card!

However Barclaycard stopped all purchases going through when someone tried to buy £800 worth of Bangladeshi phone credit on my old credit card last year - surprisingly that one wasn't actually me and I got a new card out of it!

Lol - my wife's card issuer didn't mention that they'd declined a rather large transaction in Italy. Unfortunately neither did the payee and we arrived in Italy to find our wedding hadn't been paid for and we had to try and get through to her bank on an international call on a UK bank holiday. That was fun (it did get sorted, we did get married).

 

[TheEdge]

starmill, a credit card should always work offline. Only time it wont is if you have hit your offline limit without using it somewhere with ana ainternet connection. The HSBC card I'm referring to is the one with a multicoloured cartoony map of the Earth.

 

[IanXC]

The point I was trying to make was that the holders of cards that are declined are not always penniless and don't always know why it is happening. The banks, apparently, don't think that it is their job to tell the card holder, but don't wish to share the information with anyone else who might tell the card holder!

The Chip and PIN terminal should display "PIN locked" but since the merchant acquiring firms were sold off by the banks this seems to be slipping.

 

[transmanche]

Nat West never told me once that there would be any restrictions on where I could use my card

NatWest state on their leaflets that:

Please note, this means your card cannot be used at merchants who are unable to connect to the bank’s systems for these checks. Most merchants can, but examples of those who cannot include unattended petrol pumps and some readers on trains, ships or planes

 

[Haywain]

The Chip and PIN terminal should display "PIN locked" but since the merchant acquiring firms were sold off by the banks this seems to be slipping.

According to my bank, they "don't want to pass on that sort of information". They couldn't see why I thought this was unhelpful!

 

[plastictaffy]

The official line from my TOC is, if it's declined just because it's declined, we can swipe for less than 50 quid. If it's because it's the wrong PIN, do not swipe it. We see quite a lot of cards that do not have chips on them, as they are American issued. These have to be swiped, but a peculiarity of the Avantix in my neck of the woods is that it won't allow a swipe until a C&P attempt has been made.

The way I see it is this. If a customer knows he doesn't have the money, and you swipe it, the bank will charge him. As long as my TOC get their mney, and I get my commission on the sale, I don't care. Some cards will not go through no matter what you do. Those issued by Santander and Lloyds are a particular pain in the arse.
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I'll never forget two blatant fare evaders (trying to play fools and say they didn't realise they couldn't use their EUS-MAN ticket for their journey from MAN-EUS) have their cards turned down because they were from some Nigerian bank. As soon as they produced them I thought to myself, that ain't going to work.

"So you'll be getting off at the next stop then, gents......."
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UK-issued Amex prepaid cards do not come with a chip (at least mine didn't), so it's magstripe only. I'd be very interested as well as to how an Avantix handles this

Just swipe it as normal. When you put the transaction through, you press card, then swipe. Avantix will ask if you are sure, press yes. Then just swipe through the slot, or key it in. I always swipe it, not gonna make a mistake then. Then you put in an authorisation code (staff number) and it spits out the tickets, one receipt which the punter signs and you pay in. Once you press okay, it spits out the punters' copy.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The way I see it is this. If a customer knows he doesn't have the money, and you swipe it, the bank will charge him. As long as my TOC get their mney, and I get my commission on the sale, I don't care. Some cards will not go through no matter what you do. Those issued by Santander and Lloyds are a particular pain in the arse.

But there is the problem. Nowadays, if a card is swiped via Avantix, and as such it bypasses the authorisation procedure, and when presented for payment to the bank by the TOC the customer does not have money in their account then the TOC does not get their money as the transaction has not been authorised.

If the transaction is authorised offline via the chip and pin then when presented to the bank they customer does not have money then the bank will still pay the TOC as the transaction has been authorised via the normal process. Then the bank will charge the customer for going overdrawn etc, if required.

For what it is worth if a card is declined I will, in about 95% of situations, phone up and get authorisation from the authorisation centre. About 80% of those situations the transaction is authorised, but about 20% are declined by the bank, although this is higher in certain areas!

 

[fowler9]

NatWest state on their leaflets that:

Ah well there you go, fair enough. Still don't quite understand why after I'd changed my account to a none fee paying one and was actually on the dole they then gave me an offline enabled card.

 

[island]

I have a gadget that can tell whether a card is capable of offline transactions. It also has a number of other less harmless uses so I rarely take it out of the house for fear of getting nicked.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Do many police officers know what it does?

 

[sarahj]

Phoning up is fine, when you have the time, but on our west coast line, where many cards that decline are presented, you have 2-3 mins between stations, if that.
Even on the Brighton main line, phone signals is poor from around hassocks to three bridges. plus we have a few long tunnels which dont help either. The trolly folk have a machine that phones up each time. So many times i see them just standing there waiting for a signal and or a reply.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Red Nationwide debit cards don't work on Scotrail either, but because I mostly use the suburban Scotrail network the conductors let you travel and give you a blank endorsed ticket to give to the station staff when you get off the train to let you through the barriers.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I had a great SWT Guard who said, "I don't use that fancy chip stuff here." Me being in my rail staff uniform, "Sign here and you can keep the ticket."

Went to show me how ridiculous the online/offline thing is.

He broke the rules then.

SWT policy is always use Chip and PIN, and if the card is declined only to do a swipe if the value of the ticket is £10 or less. He probably let it slide as you were staff.
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Being declined at a station is a different issue, and nothing to do with the card off-line status.

Disagree, I have an online only card and it is always denied by SWT's TVMs. I've taken to either buying at the ticket office if it is open or buying online and going for TOD.

 

[plastictaffy]

Phoning up is fine, when you have the time, but on our west coast line, where many cards that decline are presented, you have 2-3 mins between stations, if that.
Even on the Brighton main line, phone signals is poor from around hassocks to three bridges. plus we have a few long tunnels which dont help either. The trolly folk have a machine that phones up each time. So many times i see them just standing there waiting for a signal and or a reply.

Same as that, sarahj. Loooooong signal dead spots on the WCML. Just not enough time to confirm a transaction over the phone.

 

[island]

Do many police officers know what it does?

No idea.

 

[34D]

I have a gadget that can tell whether a card is capable of offline transactions. It also has a number of other less harmless uses so I rarely take it out of the house for fear of getting nicked.

What type of gadget would that be?

 

[reb0118]

Red Nationwide debit cards don't work on Scotrail either, but because I mostly use the suburban Scotrail network the conductors let you travel and give you a blank endorsed ticket to give to the station staff when you get off the train to let you through the barriers.

This is not the correct procedure. Firstly you should be given a warning that your card is not suitable for on train purchases, then depending on whether your original station had facilities to purchase a ticket prior to travel you should either be billed for the outstanding fare alone or the fare and an administration charge.

If you are subsequently found to be travelling without the means to purchase a ticket you should then receive a formal written warning cautioning you that any further infraction may result in your details being passed to the BTP for further action.

We know, however, that some on train staff follow the "bird in the bush" principle in that it is more financially rewarding to collect five or six fares from people who have the money waiting in their hands (cross my loof wi' siller!) than to spend five or ten minutes dealing with someone without the means to pay. This can give certain people a false sense of security because they are always told to pay at the "other end". It will then come as a great shock when they dealt with by a member of staff who knows and follows the correct procedures or they are caught up in a sting with the potential to end up with a criminal record.

My advice to you is that "cash is still king" so make sure you have enough to purchase your ticket. Better still buy before you board if facilities exist.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

This is not the correct procedure. Firstly you should be given a warning that your card is not suitable for on train purchases, then depending on whether your original station had facilities to purchase a ticket prior to travel you should either be billed for the outstanding fare alone or the fare and an administration charge.

If you are subsequently found to be travelling without the means to purchase a ticket you should then receive a formal written warning cautioning you that any further infraction may result in your details being passed to the BTP for further action.

We know, however, that some on train staff follow the "bird in the bush" principle in that it is more financially rewarding to collect five or six fares from people who have the money waiting in their hands (cross my loof wi' siller!) than to spend five or ten minutes dealing with someone without the means to pay. This can give certain people a false sense of security because they are always told to pay at the "other end". It will then come as a great shock when they dealt with by a member of staff who knows and follows the correct procedures or they are caught up in a sting with the potential to end up with a criminal record.

My advice to you is that "cash is still king" so make sure you have enough to purchase your ticket. Better still buy before you board if facilities exist.

Bridgeton train station has a ticket office but its very rarely open and does not have a self service ticket machine and with a cash machine not near by its a bit hard to have cash on me all the time.

I've emailed into Scotrail before regarding this issue only to be hit with a lot of spin from Scotrail's MD.

Thankfully though on the local routes they do not seem bothered if the card is declined and the conductor doesn't bother either, and if the station staff are getting hammered from all sides by people wanting tickets when they get off the train, they open the gates and let everyone through. Even a Scotrail employee who is a very good friend of mine has said that if they are getting hammered, then open the gates and deal with the losses later.

 

[WillPS]

Same as that, sarahj. Loooooong signal dead spots on the WCML. Just not enough time to confirm a transaction over the phone.

Haven't Virgin had T-Mobile boosters installed along the WCML? I know when I took a ride on a Pendolino I had a perfect Virgin Mobile 3G signal all the way a few years ago.

This is not the correct procedure. Firstly you should be given a warning that your card is not suitable for on train purchases, then depending on whether your original station had facilities to purchase a ticket prior to travel you should either be billed for the outstanding fare alone or the fare and an administration charge.

If you are subsequently found to be travelling without the means to purchase a ticket you should then receive a formal written warning cautioning you that any further infraction may result in your details being passed to the BTP for further action.

We know, however, that some on train staff follow the "bird in the bush" principle in that it is more financially rewarding to collect five or six fares from people who have the money waiting in their hands (cross my loof wi' siller!) than to spend five or ten minutes dealing with someone without the means to pay. This can give certain people a false sense of security because they are always told to pay at the "other end". It will then come as a great shock when they dealt with by a member of staff who knows and follows the correct procedures or they are caught up in a sting with the potential to end up with a criminal record.

My advice to you is that "cash is still king" so make sure you have enough to purchase your ticket. Better still buy before you board if facilities exist.

I disagree strongly. The customer is offering payment via a method which is advertised as accepted. If the Railways cannot accept the methods of payment which they advertise, they should rectify that.

 

[fowler9]

Haven't Virgin had T-Mobile boosters installed along the WCML? I know when I took a ride on a Pendolino I had a perfect Virgin Mobile 3G signal all the way a few years ago.


I disagree strongly. The customer is offering payment via a method which is advertised as accepted. If the Railways cannot accept the methods of payment which they advertise, they should rectify that.

Totally agree with you on that. Unless people are told that online only cards will not be accepted on the train how do they know their card may not be a valid payment method.

 

[87 027]

I have had my VISA Gold Card (held for nearly 20 years) declined one day and accepted the next on the same route by the same conductor for the same fare when I was on holiday.

It isn't always the customer's fault when a card declines!

 

[WillPS]

Totally agree with you on that. Unless people are told that online only cards will not be accepted on the train how do they know their card may not be a valid payment method.

I don't believe such a rule would be fair or enforcable. Customers are not aware of anything other than what is written on their cards, I believe Santander cards are the only ones which actually specifically mention that they are for Electronic use only. Would the rule read "except Blue NatWest cards, solid green Lloyds cards, etc. etc."? Even with a long list of exceptions (which could surely never be complete), it's possible for a bank to dynamically change the status of a card (although I don't know how often this happens) or simply to issue one of the 'wrong' colour.

The fact is that banks have done away with the distinction between 'trusted' and 'untrusted' cards. If the railways wish to continue accepting credit/debit cards then they need to equip their staff suitably. They must be losing thousands though the shenanigans that people can get away with at present (see the guy who managed to buy tickets worth thousands cumulatively knowing that his bank account would not be touched).

I have had my VISA Gold Card (held for nearly 20 years) declined one day and accepted the next on the same route by the same conductor for the same fare when I was on holiday.

It isn't always the customer's fault when a card declines!

Indeed. It's possible you have millions of pounds available but the card only allows a certain amount to be authorised offline. If you make a purchase prior to getting on board which depletes that 'offline' balance, you're screwed.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

I wasn't aware that red Nationwide debit card's were for online authorisation only. It doesn't even say on the back of the card ' Electronic Use Only'

Thankfully now Nationwide are giving me an offline card due to me harassing them on this issue of being declined on trains.

 

[fowler9]

I don't believe such a rule would be fair or enforcable. Customers are not aware of anything other than what is written on their cards, I believe Santander cards are the only ones which actually specifically mention that they are for Electronic use only. Would the rule read "except Blue NatWest cards, solid green Lloyds cards, etc. etc."? Even with a long list of exceptions (which could surely never be complete), it's possible for a bank to dynamically change the status of a card (although I don't know how often this happens) or simply to issue one of the 'wrong' colour.

The fact is that banks have done away with the distinction between 'trusted' and 'untrusted' cards. If the railways wish to continue accepting credit/debit cards then they need to equip their staff suitably. They must be losing thousands though the shenanigans that people can get away with at present (see the guy who managed to buy tickets worth thousands cumulatively knowing that his bank account would not be touched).

Indeed. It's possible you have millions of pounds available but the card only allows a certain amount to be authorised offline. If you make a purchase prior to getting on board which depletes that 'offline' balance, you're screwed.

Sorry mate, I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I don't want to see people prosecuted when they had money in the bank but had no idea that the card wouldn't work in a particular companies machine. It is made worse if train companies don't even make it clear that online only cards won't be accepted, made even worse when the card issuer doesn't make it clear themselves that the card is online only. Although as another posted pointed out to me if you read the small print on your account you can find out that a blue Nat West card has limited use. From my experience they don't actually tell you straight out when you set up the account though.

 

[TheEdge]

The customer is offering payment via a method which is advertised as accepted. If the Railways cannot accept the methods of payment which they advertise, they should rectify that.

Read the wording properly...

Some train companies also accept Diners Club International, Solo and Electron.

Guess which are the cards that decline? Solos and Electrons. Unhelpfully the banks don't brand them as such any more meaning we don't know until they decline and some people don't even know they have them! Although a quick search seems to bring up ATW as the only TOC openly and clearly saying as such despite many others being in the same situation.

 

[WillPS]

Read the wording properly...



Guess which are the cards that decline? Solos and Electrons. Unhelpfully the banks don't brand them as such any more meaning we don't know until they decline and some people don't even know they have them! Although a quick search seems to bring up ATW as the only TOC openly and clearly saying as such despite many others being in the same situation.

The Solo card scheme ended completely. Its 'trusted' analogue Switch (later Maestro UK) is now rare, only issued by Clydesdale and Yorkshire on their Student accounts I believe.

Electron cards are no longer issued by banks in Britain.

Visa Debit is a completely different proposition and is advertised as accepted by the railways.

The move towards Visa Debit cards not always being authorisable offline was well prepared for (as early as whenever the Chip & PIN spec was announced if not earlier).

The fact Solo and Electron cards are specifically excluded from being authorised for use universally is neither here nor there; they effectively do not exist any more (in the UK at least).

 

[fowler9]

I guess we all just have to start reading the small print from now on. The banks won't obviously tell you what the card does and the railway companies won't obviously tell you what cards they take. Buyer beware.