Deceptive highest-band Advance ticket pricing

[Ianno87]

To give the traditional Supermarket analogy, it's no different to Tesco selling tins of own-brand beans with suspiciously similar packaging, and slightly cheaper than the Heinz variety.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Present too many fares and customers just end up confused.

Case in point: There are over 260 fares set between London and Birmingham between Avanti, Chiltern and London Northwestern. (Probably even more with Standard Premier).

Granted most of those are different levels of Advance tickets, but it's still utterly ludicrous that we've got into this position.

 

[JonathanH]

Case in point: There are over 260 fares set between London and Birmingham between Avanti, Chiltern and London Northwestern. (Probably even more with Standard Premier).

Granted most of those are different levels of Advance tickets, but it's still utterly ludicrous that we've got into this position.

To some extent that is only because of the way the data is presented. I dont know how many tiers of prices that hotels, aeroplanes or coaches have because it isn't presented the same way - all you know is the marginal tier on offer when you look at the booking site.

 

[Kite159]

A couple years ago I looked for fares from Edinburgh to London on Easter Monday and the majority of advances were 50p-£1 less than the flexible super off-peak single (this was before that single got routed "via York").

 

[Haywain]

A couple years ago I looked for fares from Edinburgh to London on Easter Monday and the majority of advances were 50p-£1 less than the flexible super off-peak single (this was before that single got routed "via York").

The lack of cheap fares on one of the busiest days of the year really doesn't prove anything.

 

[Ianno87]

The lack of cheap fares on one of the busiest days of the year really doesn't prove anything.

If anything, people doing such a long journey on a busy day are probably more than happy to stick to a booked train to keep their reserved seat.

 

[Kite159]

The lack of cheap fares on one of the busiest days of the year really doesn't prove anything.

But why would anybody want to save 50p on a ticket restricted to just one train when the flexible ticket offers more flexibility if your plans change. There were cheaper fares showing but on the last couple departures which didn't get into London until midnight

Only advantage of buying in advance would be to get a seat reservation in the hope the seat reservation system didn't collapse and it becomes a free for all.

 

[Ianno87]

Only advantage of buying in advance would be to get a seat reservation.

As I say, on a busy Bank Holiday Monday, that will be what passengers actually want.

 

[Hadders]

If anything, people doing such a long journey on a busy day are probably more than happy to stick to a booked train to keep their reserved seat.

You can get a seat reservation with a flexible ticket with the added bonus of being able to travel at a different time if your plans change.

One other thing to consider with expensive Advance fares is the journey in the opposite direction. It might be that a flexible super off-peak fare isn't valid at this time and so purchasing an Advance ticket at a similar price to the super off peak can make sense. That said, LNER do have single leg pricing at half the price of a return on some flows so you can purchase flexible tickets both ways. Single leg pricing is only available on a handful of flows though.

 

[Ianno87]

You can get a seat reservation with a flexible ticket with the added bonus of being able to travel at a different time if your plans change.

Do peoples' "plans change" on a journey like Edinburgh-London, when you've basically built your day around 4.5 hour train journey already? Especially when you know it's busy and you'll risk having to stand on an alternative train.

Typically, people flying the same journey don't have "plans change".

 

[Hadders]

Do peoples' "plans change" on a journey like Edinburgh-London, when you've basically built your day around 4.5 hour train journey already? Especially when you know it's busy and you'll risk having to stand on an alternative train.

Typically, people flying the same journey don't have "plans change".

Yes they do! For example:

I had a short break in Edinburgh a couple of years ago and booked a train home departing around 17:00 to maximise time in Edinburgh on the last day. Weather was awful so rather than hang around until 17:00 we decided to come home early and got a train at 13:00. We could have hung around until 17:00 but part of the reason for travelling by train was to have the flexibility.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Do peoples' "plans change" on a journey like Edinburgh-London, when you've basically built your day around 4.5 hour train journey already? Especially when you know it's busy and you'll risk having to stand on an alternative train.

Typically, people flying the same journey don't have "plans change".

Stag/Hen parties are the worst offenders. They'll just book the cheapest ticket then rock up at the station and try and get on the next available train.

 

[Deerfold]

To give the traditional Supermarket analogy, it's no different to Tesco selling tins of own-brand beans with suspiciously similar packaging, and slightly cheaper than the Heinz variety.

Except, as with most supermarket analogies, it doesn't really work.

Tesco will usually quite happily refund you the full price on unopened own-brand items and allow you to replace them with the premium beans if you change your mind.

 

[miami]

Stag/Hen parties are the worst offenders. They'll just book the cheapest ticket then rock up at the station and try and get on the next available train.

No sir, your party of 5's tickets cost £870, you needed to spend £875 to have flexibility. No it's not £5 extra, it will cost you £875.

"Thank you for using the railway, we will enjoy the £1745 we've taken of you, please consider us again, we know Easyjet charge £35 and in a car you could leave at any time you wanted.

Oh and your journey home will be by replacement bus service for 4 hours on a service far worse than national express. Have a nice day"

 

[Watershed]

Do peoples' "plans change" on a journey like Edinburgh-London, when you've basically built your day around 4.5 hour train journey already? Especially when you know it's busy and you'll risk having to stand on an alternative train.

Typically, people flying the same journey don't have "plans change".

They certainly change if you're travelling from London to Peterborough. Which would be on an LNER train, unless you have a particular affection for doctor's waiting rooms (700s).

 

[AlterEgo]

Is the complaint here merely about what price the tickets are, or the fact that flexible fares are hidden from the customer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, and I always book online too.

But if you called the TOC and said “I want the cheapest ticket between A and B” I’m not certain the TOC staff would say “Well there’s an advanced ticket for £50 or for £51 you can have a flexible one allowing you more travel options “

At least one booking engine, though I forget which, does or did. Something like "get more flexibility for just £X extra".

 

[Watershed]

Is the complaint here merely about what price the tickets are, or the fact that flexible fares are hidden from the customer?

I think it's particularly about the fact that, when booking on mobile apps, you are normally only shown the lowest fare by default. With no indication that, in many cases, for 5 or 10p more you could buy a much more flexible ticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

At least one booking engine, though I forget which, does or did. Something like "get more flexibility for just £X extra".

We have one for first upgrades and one for flexibility

 

[181]

Do peoples' "plans change" on a journey like Edinburgh-London, when you've basically built your day around 4.5 hour train journey already? Especially when you know it's busy and you'll risk having to stand on an alternative train.

If missing your train means buying a new ticket, you need to be more certain of catching it than if it just means reaching your destination a bit later. Although you should be covered if an earlier train is delayed, if getting to the station in the first place involves a not particularly frequent bus service, or driving on a road prone to traffic jams, you may need to start your journey significantly earlier if you have an Advance ticket.

 

[Ianno87]

If missing your train means buying a new ticket, you need to be more certain of catching it than if it just means reaching your destination a bit later. Although you should be covered if an earlier train is delayed, if getting to the station in the first place involves a not particularly frequent bus service, or driving on a road prone to traffic jams, you may need to start your journey significantly earlier if you have an Advance ticket.

Yes, I get that.

But quite a few people are happy to pay that price to save a relatively small sum (ironically, probably spending the difference on a coffee whilst waiting for their train!)

 

[Journeyman]

If missing your train means buying a new ticket, you need to be more certain of catching it than if it just means reaching your destination a bit later. Although you should be covered if an earlier train is delayed, if getting to the station in the first place involves a not particularly frequent bus service, or driving on a road prone to traffic jams, you may need to start your journey significantly earlier if you have an Advance ticket.

This is no different to catching a plane. People don't have a problem with that.

 

[Deerfold]

This is no different to catching a plane. People don't have a problem with that.

It's very rare that there's a plane every half hour.

 

[Journeyman]

It's very rare that there's a plane every half hour.

That's irrelevant. If you don’t need there to be a train every half hour, why pay for the right to use them?

 

[Ianno87]

That's irrelevant. If you don’t need there to be a train every half hour, why pay for the right to use them?

Most people on long distance journeys just pay to get one train from A to B and that's all they want. They don't want or need "flexibility". Or if they miss a train, they'll just accept the consequences of having to buy a fresh ticket.

A train every half hour just gives them an extra choice of which train.

 

[Journeyman]

Most people on long distance journeys just pay to get one train from A to B and that's all they want. They don't want or need "flexibility". Or if they miss a train, they'll just accept the consequences of having to buy a fresh ticket.

A train every half hour just gives them an extra choice of which train.

Exactly. I often travel from Edinburgh to London, and my choice of train, more often than not, is dictated by whatever one has the cheapest advances on it. I really don't care when the one before or the one after it is, and I'm habitually very early for things anyway, so have never missed my booked train.

 

[181]

But quite a few people are happy to pay that price to save a relatively small sum (ironically, probably spending the difference on a coffee whilst waiting for their train!)

That's fine, as long as it's an informed choice.

This is no different to catching a plane. People don't have a problem with that.

Flying is usually quicker than the alternatives by a large enough margin that having to build in time to allow for delays on the way to the airport leaves the journey shorter overall. This discussion is about the difference between two types of train ticket, and how small the saving can be while still being worth the downsides.

Or if they miss a train, they'll just accept the consequences of having to buy a fresh ticket.

Even with single-leg pricing, people happy to do that between Edinburgh and London are probably not the same people as those desperate to save £1.

 

[Starmill]

When buying a ticket on the day of travel, an Advance that is even £2 cheaper than the cheapest flexible ticket is often offering a worthwhile saving.

 

[miami]

This is no different to catching a plane. People don't have a problem with that.

One of the arguments railfans make is that the plane is slower because you have to turn up at the airport earlier than a train.

If a delay en-route to the station means you can't take the train, you have to arrive earlier, which means the journey is even longer compared with the plane. At heathrow you aim to arrive 60 minutes before takeoff, and you're 20 minutes late, you're almost certain to be fine (having 30 minutes to go through security and walk to the furthest A1 or A19 gate). That means your 90 minute flight is really 150 minutes, only 90 minutes faster than the train.

You'll need to arrive at the stations 25 minutes before the train leaves for the same 'buffer', meaning the 240 minute journey is now 265 minutes, restoring that to 115 minutes.

Spending an extra £1 means you can get a train that's an hour later, or 3 hours later, or decide to go home early because you twisted your ankle, bargain.

(When I travel to London I usually know what day I'll be coming back, but not always. Certainly no idea about what time I'll be travelling though)

 

[miklcct]

To give the traditional Supermarket analogy, it's no different to Tesco selling tins of own-brand beans with suspiciously similar packaging, and slightly cheaper than the Heinz variety.

This is different here - beans are a kind of commodity which look, smell and taste the same across different brands, so Tesco is selling an identical product under its own brand. Same can be said as every kind of vegetables, pasta, rice, etc that I only need to look at the price tag to decide which supermarket / brand I will buy from.

An analogy will be a train company selling two different tickets which offers the exact same rights (e.g. an anytime day single and an off-peak day single, dated on a weekend where both are valid on the exact same routes and trains) at a different price.

Most people on long distance journeys just pay to get one train from A to B and that's all they want. They don't want or need "flexibility". Or if they miss a train, they'll just accept the consequences of having to buy a fresh ticket.

A train every half hour just gives them an extra choice of which train.

This is not true for most people. For example, I take a train to another city, or even an aeroplane to another country, because I have some task to do, and there is no fixed time when I complete my task. I definitely want flexibility by buying a day return such that I can return home whenever I want.

And I assume that most people on long-distance journeys are on business travel, right?