• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Deceptive highest-band Advance ticket pricing

Status
Not open for further replies.

kingston

Member
Joined
15 Feb 2016
Messages
75
If you put this to your average Jane on the street:

- the cost of A-B is £62,
- you can buy your ticket just before you hop on the train, no advance purchased required weeks ahead
- you can travel earlier or later on any off-peak train you like,
- or get a refund if you've already bought it for £10.

And asked them the question:

Would you like to save 50p-£1 for a non-refundable ticket fixed to one train, despite buying weeks in advance, if you miss it your cash is lost and you need to buy a new £62 ticket, if you want to change trains provided you do it in advance you can buy a new one and post in the old one at your own cost and receive the money back minus £10 fee?

Clearly a vanishingly small minority of sane people would take that deal.

Specifically my concern is that the highest band of Advance ticket pricing is specifically designed, almost with intent, to take advantage of the less-than-great user interface in booking engines by appearing as the cheapest ticket over the cheapest flexible fare (by a very slim margin) for the very convenient benefit to the TOC of people paying the £10 change fee and losing money on missed trains.

Looking at GWR for Plymouth to London for example, on many journeys an Advance fare of £61.20 is offered vs a flexible fare of £62.20. Whilst £1 is definitely a saving, the value proposition of a significant loss of product features for just £1 saving makes for a very poor is very poor.

This means the headline price and first-shown ticket price is the £61.20 ticket fare. Technically it does say one is "Standard Class Advance Single" vs "Super Off-Peak Single", but this is in much smaller letters than the price, is not in consistent or directly comparable terms (why does one say 'Standard Class' and the other does not?). There could be a different icon to show one is fixed and the other is flexible, a differentiation of flexible vs fixed could be shown, a buy-up user interface could be shown to say 'Would you like a flexible ticket for £1 more?' as some other TOCs do, many opportunities to be up-front and forthright with the purchaser are missed.

Yes we are all clued-up enough to easily see the difference, but how many average people on the street would fall into that trap?

By comparison when buying a coach ticket National Express show very clearly side-by-side the different price points and the flexibility/features in comparison.

I think TOCs should have to make it clear when selling a ticket the price difference between an Advance ticket and the cheapest flexible ticket - for an honest and customer-friendly business would there be any disadvantage to this?

I don't think price controls are appropriate but if it cannot be made clear to potential customers then perhaps Advance tickets should be capped at 90% or 100%-£10 of the equivalent flexible fare (as difficult as that would be to implement) to avoid this kind of deceptive practices?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,686
I think you overestimate the importance of flexibility to a very significant proportion of the travelling public, especially for longer distance journeys, while underestimating price sensitivity.
 

181

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2013
Messages
942
I think you overestimate the importance of flexibility to a very significant proportion of the travelling public, especially for longer distance journeys, while underestimating price sensitivity.

There may be people who are not prepared to pay £1 to avoid this situation:
...a non-refundable ticket fixed to one train, despite buying weeks in advance, if you miss it your cash is lost and you need to buy a new £62 ticket, if you want to change trains provided you do it in advance you can buy a new one and post in the old one at your own cost and receive the money back minus £10 fee?
but the choice should be made clear to them. The main point of the OP's complaint is that people are being manipulated into buying a poorer product by an interface that doesn't make the choice clear.
 

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
6,284
Location
Wallsend or somewhere on the ECML
I could never understand why people werre content to ask for an Advance that was less than £10 cheaper than a flexible ticket. This was in a Travel Centre and it took an awful lot of convincing that the very slightly cheaper ticket wasn't the best bet. Generally customers just wanted the cheapest ticket regardless of the price difference.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
I could never understand why people werre content to ask for an Advance that was less than £10 cheaper than a flexible ticket. This was in a Travel Centre and it took an awful lot of convincing that the very slightly cheaper ticket wasn't the best bet. Generally customers just wanted the cheapest ticket regardless of the price difference.
I use Advances all the time. Many people need to save whatever they can, and don't need flexibility.

I can't understand why so many people here hate Advance tickets so much. They're popular for a reason. If you need to pay a premium for flexibility, do so. If you don’t, there's no point in paying it, even if the saving seems tiny.
 
Last edited:

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
I think you overestimate the importance of flexibility to a very significant proportion of the travelling public, especially for longer distance journeys, while underestimating price sensitivity.

I could never understand why people werre content to ask for an Advance that was less than £10 cheaper than a flexible ticket. This was in a Travel Centre and it took an awful lot of convincing that the very slightly cheaper ticket wasn't the best bet. Generally customers just wanted the cheapest ticket regardless of the price difference.

If I was buying an Advance maybe only a day or two before travel, and I knew (short of some total catastrophe) that I was going to be on that train / didn't need the flexibility / had little choice of train due to timings, I might consider trading down to save a couple of quid.
 

Joe Paxton

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2017
Messages
2,959
[...]
I think TOCs should have to make it clear when selling a ticket the price difference between an Advance ticket and the cheapest flexible ticket - for an honest and customer-friendly business would there be any disadvantage to this?

I don't think price controls are appropriate but if it cannot be made clear to potential customers then perhaps Advance tickets should be capped at 90% or 100%-£10 of the equivalent flexible fare (as difficult as that would be to implement) to avoid this kind of deceptive practices?

I agree with this. Advances that are say a quid or two cheaper than a flexible ticket shouldn't be on offer. Exactly what formula would be best I don't know, but there should be something.

Of course the incentive for TOCs to sidestep ORCATS revenue sharing through offering pricier Advance tickets will (likely) come to an end in the new GBR era.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
I agree with this. Advances that are say a quid or two cheaper than a flexible ticket shouldn't be on offer.
Why not? As long as they're sold transparently and the price differential is made clear, there's no issue.
 

Tryfan

Member
Joined
4 May 2021
Messages
51
Location
Peak District
Personally speaking I like Advanced Tickets if it means I can go 1st Class for close to what a Standard Ticket would cost with flexibility, or if I go Standard and save a decent amount. If there’s only a couple of quid to be saved I’m not that bothered with the Advance route.

I usually manage to find a good deal one way or another, either splitting the ticket and / or a combination of flexible and advanced
 

Tryfan

Member
Joined
4 May 2021
Messages
51
Location
Peak District
I think it does. I buy my tickets online, and just about all the major booking engines make it clear in one way or another.
Agreed, and I always book online too.

But if you called the TOC and said “I want the cheapest ticket between A and B” I’m not certain the TOC staff would say “Well there’s an advanced ticket for £50 or for £51 you can have a flexible one allowing you more travel options “
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Agreed, and I always book online too.

But if you called the TOC and said “I want the cheapest ticket between A and B” I’m not certain the TOC staff would say “Well there’s an advanced ticket for £50 or for £51 you can have a flexible one allowing you more travel options “
Well, under impartial retailing rules they should. It needs dealing with if it doesn't happen, but in all honesty, how many tickets are sold that way?
 

Joe Paxton

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2017
Messages
2,959
I think it does. I buy my tickets online, and just about all the major booking engines make it clear in one way or another.

To me, it seems clear that some TOCs do use Advances to just undercut the flexible fare, and so ensure the lowest (lead-in) fare displayed is their Advance ticket (where they keep all the revenue), rather than the ORCATS sharing flexible ticket. When they do this, it feels to me very much like they are gaming the system.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
To me, it seems clear that some TOCs do use Advances to just undercut the flexible fare, and so ensure the lowest (lead-in) fare displayed is their Advance ticket (where they keep all the revenue), rather than the ORCATS sharing flexible ticket. When they do this, it feels to me very much like they are gaming the system.
That may indeed happen, but I'm arguing that essentially it's transparent to the buyer, and flexibility isn't as important to as many "normals" as the largely enthusiast user base of this website thinks it is.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
To me, it seems clear that some TOCs do use Advances to just undercut the flexible fare, and so ensure the lowest (lead-in) fare displayed is their Advance ticket (where they keep all the revenue), rather than the ORCATS sharing flexible ticket. When they do this, it feels to me very much like they are gaming the system.

But then, quite a few passengers are happy to accept the loss of flexibility for even a small saving.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,305
This was in a Travel Centre and it took an awful lot of convincing that the very slightly cheaper ticket wasn't the best bet. Generally customers just wanted the cheapest ticket regardless of the price difference.

Usually the same ones who then spit bananas to the press about jobsworths making them buy a new ticket
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,686
Well, under impartial retailing rules they should. It needs dealing with if it doesn't happen, but in all honesty, how many tickets are sold that way?
Not so. Staff should ensure that they establish and meet the customer’s needs while being impartial to any TOCs involved. It isn’t necessary to provide them with a list of the full range of fares.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
Not so. Staff should ensure that they establish and meet the customer’s needs while being impartial to any TOCs involved. It isn’t necessary to provide them with a list of the full range of fares.

Present too many fares and customers just end up confused.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,701
Location
UK
Pricing Advances £1 less than the cost of a flexible ticket is predatory pricing realistically. It's not illegal but the industry should be much more transparent about the options - even if that's just:

Cheapest flexible standard ticket: £X
Cheapest fixed train standard ticket: £X-1

Whilst many people are happy to accept the restrictions of Advance ticket, they need to do so in full knowledge of what they're doing.
 

miklcct

Established Member
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
5,017
Location
Cricklewood
Here is a similar question:

If a flexible single is just £0.1 cheaper than a flexible day return, will you always buy a day return just for the case when you suddenly need to get back to the origin point unplanned?
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Whilst many people are happy to accept the restrictions of Advance ticket, they need to do so in full knowledge of what they're doing.
Is this really a problem? The conditions of Advance tickets are made pretty clear if you ask me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Here is a similar question:

If a flexible single is just £0.1 cheaper than a flexible day return, will you always buy a day return just for the case when you suddenly need to get back to the origin point unplanned?
No.
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
4,780
There are too many factors for a definitive answer. As a general rule I would prefer a level of flexibility for homeward journeys.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
Here is a similar question:

If a flexible single is just £0.1 cheaper than a flexible day return, will you always buy a day return just for the case when you suddenly need to get back to the origin point unplanned?

I do.
 

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,252
To me, it seems clear that some TOCs do use Advances to just undercut the flexible fare, and so ensure the lowest (lead-in) fare displayed is their Advance ticket (where they keep all the revenue), rather than the ORCATS sharing flexible ticket. When they do this, it feels to me very much like they are gaming the system.
Have to agree with this analysis; succinct and to the point. :|
 

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,627
Location
Birmingham
Here is a similar question:

If a flexible single is just £0.1 cheaper than a flexible day return, will you always buy a day return just for the case when you suddenly need to get back to the origin point unplanned?
Normally, yes.

For a walk-up single of £62, a maximum Advance fare of about £55-£57 seems to me to be appropriate.

IE, one pound or so difference between Advance and walk-up doesn’t, in the bigger picture, offer a tangible benefit to passengers.

But there will be those who disagree.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Normally, yes.

For a walk-up single of £62, a maximum Advance fare of about £55-£57 seems to me to be appropriate.

IE, one pound or so difference between Advance and walk-up doesn’t, in the bigger picture, offer a tangible benefit to passengers.

But there will be those who disagree.
Yeah, I'd suggest a lot of people are very price-sensitive, and railway yield management is good enough to work out what will sell, and for how much.
 

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,627
Location
Birmingham
Yeah, I'd suggest a lot of people are very price-sensitive, and railway yield management is good enough to work out what will sell, and for how much.
What “will sell” is different to what arguably “should be sold”.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
What “will sell” is different to what arguably “should be sold”.
True, but in relation to the original question, I don't think it's actually deceptive, in terms of what the customer is being offered. I agree it's sidestepping ORCATS, though.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top