December Timetable on Open data sites

[TB]

Interestingly, Morecambe gets trains to Barrow at 10:03 and 13:54, a 22:51 to Preston and an 08:22 to Carlisle via Barrow taking only 4h16!

The early Windermere continues, while there are Preston - Morecambe's at 11:05 and 21:06.

From Ilkley, 07:50 to Bradford retimed to 07:48, 08:17 to Leeds becomes 08:15 and 20:21 to Leeds becomes 20:29.

 

[47421]

what is status of December Timetable on open train times? Is it now finalised, and if not when will it be?

Anyone know what is changing on west anglia? I have not checked in that much detail but looks as if Sawbridgeworth is getting its second direct Liv St train back in the evening with stops added on the XX:58 ex Liv St.

This will be welcome as Sawb lost out when west anglia timetable was recast a few years ago - the stop on the semifast Cambs - Liv St was removed to be replaced with a stop on the extra Bishops Stortford - Stratford service, resulting in slower journey times / and need to change on many Liv St journeys. (Also adding reliability issues as the Stratfords are always the first to be cancelled when there is disruption, and GA almost never add stops to the various fast Stansted Airport and Cambs services).

As an aside does anyone know if there are any plans to stop 12 car services at Sawb or Stansted Mountfitchet? Seems strange to extend the platforms but then never use them for 12 car services

 

[swt_passenger]

what is status of December Timetable on open train times? Is it now finalised, and if not when will it be?

I'd go by the National Rail journey planner. Once they are happy to go public for dates beyond Dec 8th (usually 12 working weeks before) it's probably about as correct as it's going to get. NR OJP is currently valid until Dec 4th...

 

[gerryuk]

I note that from December fast trains from Sheffield to London will now take just 2 hours.
The slow trains from London to Sheffield will terminate in platform 2 at Sheffield Midland. http://www.opentraintimes.com/arrivals/SHF/2013-12-09/0959
I read in another forum that these trains will then head north to Woodbourne Junction and sit there for around 20 minutes before returning to platform 7/8 at Sheffield, then onwards To St Pancras.
Is this correct? Do they have sidings for these trains at Woodbourne Junction?

 

[DaveHarries]

IIRC the reason for the building of the new loop at Tir-Phil (Rhymney line) was to allow a 30-minute Cardiff - Rhymney frequency instead of the present hourly service.

Anyone know if this might start in December? OTT seems to think not but I guess, as has already been said, that this hasn't been finalised yet. If / when it does start it will be very useful for my colleagues and I.

Dave

 

[dannypye9999]

From what I can tell from Open Train Times the Virgin Trains 22:00 Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (currently the last EUS to MAN service M-F) will be no more and will terminate at Crewe instead. It seems like the 21:40 will be the last service to Manchester from London.

A shame on virgin trains if this is true, especially in this day of passenger demand for train travel. Instead of increasing their services they've decreased it - all because its a voyager and not a pendo which I think is just lazy. What a good start for their "second term" in the franchise.

 

[dk1]

A shame on virgin trains if this is true, especially in this day of passenger demand for train travel. Instead of increasing their services they've decreased it - all because its a voyager and not a pendo which I think is just lazy. What a good start for their "second term" in the franchise.

Could it not just be due to late night NR engineering blocks.

 

[MCR247]

A shame on virgin trains if this is true, especially in this day of passenger demand for train travel. Instead of increasing their services they've decreased it - all because its a voyager and not a pendo which I think is just lazy. What a good start for their "second term" in the franchise.

Why is it "lazy"? Since its being cut I assume the service was 'extra' to the service specification in the franchise commitment, and if there isn't demand for it why continue running it?

I can imagine the daily mail on a slow news day having a go at virgin for running empty services and wasting money, but then if they cut a service because noboby uses it, all of a sudden its a very important service and Virgin are the bad guys for doing it :roll:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Plus any passengers who need to can just get the 0044 Northern fast to Manchester Picc - the waiting rooms are open 24/7 on Crewe AFAIK so they'll be safe and everything during the connection. Only losers really would be Wilmslow and Stockport passengers, as the 0044 serves the Airport only.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, I've just thought - if it's a Voyager than it will need to go back to either Central Rivers or the LNWR at Crewe that night (whereas when it's a 390 as now it runs to Longsight), so it could easily be something to do with the actual unit - perhaps maintenance dictates that the extra 2 hours (roughly) it would take to go to Picc and back would affect its upkeep, or the schedule inside the sidings?

 

[anthony263]

IIRC the reason for the building of the new loop at Tir-Phil (Rhymney line) was to allow a 30-minute Cardiff - Rhymney frequency instead of the present hourly service.

Anyone know if this might start in December? OTT seems to think not but I guess, as has already been said, that this hasn't been finalised yet. If / when it does start it will be very useful for my colleagues and I.

Dave

Perhaps if ATW have the stock. I suppose you could split a 4 carriage train formed of pacers at Bargoed with 1 unit continuing to Rhymney while the second unit shunts out of the station before returning and awaiting for the next unit coming down from Rhymney before they couple up ready to depart Bargoed for Penarth.

Of course the WG could put their hands in their pockets and see if DRS wil hire some class 37's and mark 2 carriages for loco hauled services to Rhymney again

 

[Thomas6187]

From what I can tell from Open Train Times the Virgin Trains 22:00 Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (currently the last EUS to MAN service M-F) will be no more and will terminate at Crewe instead. It seems like the 21:40 will be the last service to Manchester from London.

I heard from VT staff member that there was a plan to run a 23:00 Euston-Piccadilly service, but its all gone quiet on that front

Edit:
The Empty stock move for the 22:00 Euston-Piccadilly at Piccadilly is showing up in RTT, so maybe VT haven't fully decided what they are doing

 

[louis97]

I note that from December fast trains from Sheffield to London will now take just 2 hours.
The slow trains from London to Sheffield will terminate in platform 2 at Sheffield Midland. http://www.opentraintimes.com/arrivals/SHF/2013-12-09/0959
I read in another forum that these trains will then head north to Woodbourne Junction and sit there for around 20 minutes before returning to platform 7/8 at Sheffield, then onwards To St Pancras.
Is this correct? Do they have sidings for these trains at Woodbourne Junction?

That is correct, if you look at Open Train Times in Advanced mode you can see the paths for the moves to/from Woodburn Junction, they are shown as Sheffield to Sheffield services. I'd imagine they are reversing behind the junction signal on the line to Deepcar, or behind the shunt signal on the Up Worksop line.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

IIRC the reason for the building of the new loop at Tir-Phil (Rhymney line) was to allow a 30-minute Cardiff - Rhymney frequency instead of the present hourly service.

Anyone know if this might start in December? OTT seems to think not but I guess, as has already been said, that this hasn't been finalised yet. If / when it does start it will be very useful for my colleagues and I.

Dave

I don't know the answer to this but the new platform at Tir Phil is already in use.

 

[Thomas6187]

Another oddity, related to TPE now going via Chat Moss.

There is a 07:11 Blackpool North-Manchester Oxford Road which then forms the 08:31 Manchester Oxford Road-Barrow.

 

[Eagle]

Any idea what the reason for that turning back at Oxford Road is?

 

[Thomas6187]

Most probably due lack of paths between Oxford Rd and Piccadilly, plus it's only got a six minute turnaround.

 

[calc7]

And west-facing bays at Oxford Rd

 

[Chapeltom]

That is tight, I suppose if it runs late it would have to use platform 3/1 to go back westwards. Having said that the stopper that provides the 0844 to Liverpool Lime St is usually late, as I have to catch that at Liverpool South Parkway to Mossley Hill and I'm normally on the 0837 to LPY from MCO - when I'm at Uni of course

 

[172212]

Yes, hourly off daytime off peak Stourbridge Stratford via Dorridge is an extension of the current Dorridge terminator. On the other half hour the existing Stourbridge Stratford maintains it's current route via Henley in Arden.

Watch out if you come over to the Stourbridge/Kidderminster side of the Snow Hill Lines, a lot of timings and stopping pattens will change.

Hagley & Blakedown are now served by the Kidderminster depatures/terminators, Langley Green, Old Hill and Lye are now served by Stourbridge services in both directions. Sunday trains now leave Stourbridge Junction - to Birmingham at 25 (all stops) and 55. Still only 1tph to Kidderminster on Sundays, still no Sunday evening service for Langley Green, Old Hill, Lye, Tyseley, stations to Stratford-Upon-Avon, Acocks Green and Olton. The 13:03 (from Snow Hill) to Stourbridge Junction only still exists, meaning there's an hour gap between available services in both directions for Hagley & Blakedown. Overall very pleased, but my local station is Smethwick Galton Bridge, my opinion would probably get different if it was a smaller station

 

[dvboy]

http://pennnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/virgin-to-cut-wolverhampton-trains-in-december/

VIRGIN TO CUT WOLVERHAMPTON TRAINS IN DECEMBER
06 October 2013 · by Lee · in News, Transport. ·

Timetable changes by Virgin Trains will reduce the number of trains per hour between Birmingham and Wolverhampton from December.

The changes to the timetable will see the London-Wolverhampton services joined up with the Birmingham-Scotland services, designed to reduce connections at New Street station for those from the north travelling to Birmingham Airport and Coventry.

However, these changes have the knock on effect of cutting one service per hour from the Birmingham-Wolverhampton timetable, forcing evening commuters onto other already busy trains.

In the new timetable taking effect from 8 December, Pendolino trains that currently run from London through to Wolverhampton leaving New Street at 10 minutes to each hour will now terminate there.

Commuters who would normally use these busy 11-coach trains will now need to catch shorter-formed trains earlier or later. The withdrawal of the Wolverhampton service leaves a 19 minute gap in the timetable most hours:

Alternative commuter trains from Birmingham to Wolverhampton:
xx:38 London Midland 3-coach train to Wolverhampton (all stops)
17:46 (only this hour) London Midland 3-coach train to Shrewsbury
xx:57 CrossCountry 4-coach train to Manchester Piccadilly

These trains are already some of the busiest services out of Birmingham New Street in the evening peak between 4pm and 7pm.

Direct services to Wolverhampton from London will be maintained by the trains that will run through to the North West and Scotland.

From Wolverhampton, services at 32 minutes past the hour directly to Birmingham will no longer run. Trains arriving will wait at Wolverhampton station until 45 minutes past the hour, when existing trains to London Euston leave.

The gap left in the timetable from Wolverhampton is only 7 minutes as there are trains at 30 and 37 minutes past each hour to Birmingham.

 

[ryan125hst]

VIRGIN TO CUT WOLVERHAMPTON TRAINS IN DECEMBER
06 October 2013 · by Lee · in News, Transport. ·

Timetable changes by Virgin Trains will reduce the number of trains per hour between Birmingham and Wolverhampton from December.

The changes to the timetable will see the London-Wolverhampton services joined up with the Birmingham-Scotland services, designed to reduce connections at New Street station for those from the north travelling to Birmingham Airport and Coventry.

However, these changes have the knock on effect of cutting one service per hour from the Birmingham-Wolverhampton timetable, forcing evening commuters onto other already busy trains.

In the new timetable taking effect from 8 December, Pendolino trains that currently run from London through to Wolverhampton leaving New Street at 10 minutes to each hour will now terminate there.

Commuters who would normally use these busy 11-coach trains will now need to catch shorter-formed trains earlier or later. The withdrawal of the Wolverhampton service leaves a 19 minute gap in the timetable most hours:

Alternative commuter trains from Birmingham to Wolverhampton:
xx:38 London Midland 3-coach train to Wolverhampton (all stops)
17:46 (only this hour) London Midland 3-coach train to Shrewsbury
xx:57 CrossCountry 4-coach train to Manchester Piccadilly

These trains are already some of the busiest services out of Birmingham New Street in the evening peak between 4pm and 7pm.

Direct services to Wolverhampton from London will be maintained by the trains that will run through to the North West and Scotland.

From Wolverhampton, services at 32 minutes past the hour directly to Birmingham will no longer run. Trains arriving will wait at Wolverhampton station until 45 minutes past the hour, when existing trains to London Euston leave.

The gap left in the timetable from Wolverhampton is only 7 minutes as there are trains at 30 and 37 minutes past each hour to Birmingham.

I'm just trying to get my head around what they have done. Looking on Realtime Trains, the current pattern at Birmingham New Street for Virgin Trains southbound is:

xx:10 to London Euston (Starts at Wolverhampton)
xx:30 to London Euston (Starts at Birmingham New Street)
xx:50 to London Euston (Starts at Birmingham New Street)
xx:55 Terminate at Birmingham (from Edinburgh or Glasgow alternating)

From the December timetable change:
xx:10 to London Euston (Starts at Edinburgh or Glasgow alternating)
xx:30 to London Euston (Starts at Birmingham New Street)
xx:50 to London Euston (Starts at Birmingham New Street)

So what they have basically done is altered the timings of the southbound service from Edinburgh/Glasgow to arrive at Wolverhampton in time to form the original southbound service. Northbound they have extended one of the services from London Euston that used to terminate at Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh/Glasgow, and made the train that used to run to Wolverhampton terminate at Birmingham instead.

I see what you are saying about the lack of capacity as it means one less train per hour between Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton. However, i'm guessing it means that they will be able to use their rolling stock more efficiently. It now means that the service from Birmingham to Scotland will now use electric traction whereas it is normally a Voyager now. I always thought it was a bit odd that Crewe didn't have a regular Pendolino service to Scotland, given the significance of Crewe to the railways. It also now gives London Euston two services an hour to Scotland (even if one will take an hour longer than the other!). That was something else I found strange- a high frequency timetable, yet only one service an hour to Scotland!

Something else that is interesting is the 9xxx headcode. Presumably it's to alert the signaller to give it priority (is the path tight in places?).

Finally, what will happen to spare Voyagers? I'm guessing they have enough Pendolinos to run the Scotland services with.

 

[Searle]

I wonder if the services from xx:43 London Euston to Glasgow Central (via BHM) will show on the boards as going to Glasgow or not, as they're overtaken by the xx:30 (hour after), and it'd be quicker to stay on the concourse for 45 minutes for any stations north of Warrington.

I've also noticed that Lancaster has lost it's fast service to Euston for three trains a day, which seems to be an odd move

 

[voyagerdude220]

It now means that the service from Birmingham to Scotland will now use electric traction whereas it is normally a Voyager now. I always thought it was a bit odd that Crewe didn't have a regular Pendolino service to Scotland, given the significance of Crewe to the railways. It also now gives London Euston two services an hour to Scotland (even if one will take an hour longer than the other!). That was something else I found strange- a high frequency timetable, yet only one service an hour to Scotland!

Finally, what will happen to spare Voyagers? I'm guessing they have enough Pendolinos to run the Scotland services with.

Some of the services will still be formed of 221's. I'm under the impression most of the 221 services will be double sets.

I'm not sure what proportion of services are 221/390, but you're right that the majority will be 390s.

I'm curious as to what VT will do in regards to catering in FC, as currently, 221s on Birmingham to Scotland runs don't offer the mini grill breakfast, or hot evening meals, whereas they do to/from Euston.

 

[Eagle]

It's also involved some reshuffling of calls on the southern WCML so that the London–Birmingham–Scotland services all call at Milton Keynes rather than Watford.

Something else that is interesting is the 9xxx headcode. Presumably it's to alert the signaller to give it priority (is the path tight in places?).

No, I think that's just to make it stand out more from the standard London to Glasgow services (both of which would otherwise be 1Sxx down and 1Mxx up).

 

[ryan125hst]

I wonder if the services from xx:43 London Euston to Glasgow Central (via BHM) will show on the boards as going to Glasgow or not, as they're overtaken by the xx:30 (hour after), and it'd be quicker to stay on the concourse for 45 minutes for any stations north of Warrington.

Good question. I know the stopping FCC services to Cambridge are advertised at London Kings Cross as Foxton, so its a possibility.

Some of the services will still be formed of 221's. I'm under the impression most of the 221 services will be double sets.

I'm not sure what proportion of services are 221/390, but you're right that the majority will be 390s.

It looks to be the case as I've quickly clicked on all of the London Euston departures on Realtime Trains for Monday 9th December and for about four or five of them it says "Pathed as Diesel Multiple Unit". The vast majority are 390's though.

No, I think that's just to make it stand out more from the standard London to Glasgow services (both of which would otherwise be 1Sxx down and 1Mxx up).

I suppose it helps to prevent signalmen forgetting that it shouldn't be sent up the Trent Valley! I wonder what they would do if the service ever is? I guess that (as the driver would probably sign the route?) it would carry on to Crewe where passengers would be allowed to travel back down to Wolverhampton/Birmingham/Coventry.

Is that the first use of a class 9 headcode by Virgin Trains since the end of the Cross Country franchise?

 

[Eagle]

I wonder if the services from xx:43 London Euston to Glasgow Central (via BHM) will show on the boards as going to Glasgow or not, as they're overtaken by the xx:30 (hour after), and it'd be quicker to stay on the concourse for 45 minutes for any stations north of Warrington.

Actually it might not be quicker for Oxenholme and Penrith, which are served alternately by the London–TV–Scotland and the London–Birmingham–Scotland services (giving them each an hourly Virgin service overall).

But then it gets even more complicated by the fact that often it may be quicker to change at Lancaster for a following TPE service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose it helps to prevent signalmen forgetting that it shouldn't be sent up the Trent Valley! I wonder what they would do if the service ever is?

The driver would see that the wrong route is set and would stop the train before the junction to inform the signaller of their mistake.

The only way the train would actually end up going the wrong way is if both the signaller and the driver make a mistake, which is highly unlikely.

 

[ryan125hst]

The driver would see that the wrong route is set and would stop the train before the junction to inform the signaller of their mistake.

The only way the train would actually end up going the wrong way is if both the signaller and the driver make a mistake, which is highly unlikely.

Now you've mentioned it, it wasn't that long ago that this was being discussed on another thread. I think it happened in Goole IIRC.

Also, that should read "if the service ever did", not "ever is"! I obviously typed it too quickly!

 

[dvboy]

So what they have basically done is altered the timings of the southbound service from Edinburgh/Glasgow to arrive at Wolverhampton in time to form the original southbound service.

It already does, but now it'll have 13 minutes padding instead of being two separate trains.

Northbound they have extended one of the services from London Euston that used to terminate at Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh/Glasgow, and made the train that used to run to Wolverhampton terminate at Birmingham instead.

Yep, although for some reason it'll leave New Street 5 minutes earlier now.

I assume the reason for both of the above is to enable crew changes at Wolverhampton.

 

[calc7]

Yep, although for some reason it'll leave New Street 5 minutes earlier now.

I assume the reason for both of the above is to enable crew changes at Wolverhampton.

It is for the Sandwell and Dudley call that does not feature in the current xx20 Birmingham-Scotlands.

 

[telstarbox]

I think the Glasgow trains will still be shown as such on the boards at Euston because some passengers will have Euston-Glasgow Advances and so will need to be able to check their booked trains. This doesn't apply to FCC's "Foxton" trains.