December 2025 Timetable Change - Confirmed changes only

[Iskra]

They are the sort who will board the first available service, even if the first available train is a 4 coach voyager which has arrived from Edinburgh rather than a 9/10 coach LNER service which starts at Leeds (and hence highly likely getting a seat, rather than standing next to the bog).

Surely the youngsters should be app savvy and could be more likely to stumble across train formation info? Also, regulars at Westgate are highly likely to know that: LNER run longer trains than other operators (generally) and that XC means being wedged next to a smelly toilet. You don’t need to be an expert to work those two things out after a couple of weeks of travelling! As a regular on the line the LNER trains carry more Leeds-Wakefield commuters than the Northern stoppers do.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Surely the youngsters should be app savvy and could be more likely to stumble across train formation info? Also, regulars at Westgate are highly likely to know that: LNER run longer trains than other operators (generally) and that XC means being wedged next to a smelly toilet. You don’t need to be an expert to work those two things out after a couple of weeks of travelling! As a regular on the line the LNER trains carry more Leeds-Wakefield commuters than the Northern stoppers do.

Except when the LNER trains are cancelled or delayed when the Northern stoppers are rammed.

 

[Iskra]

I would’ve like to see the New Northern fast service via Wakefield Westgate to stop at Rotherham Central . Just feel that for a town its size it isn't really connected with a fast/express service ( ik it has the hourly Leeds stopper ) but a quicker option from Rotherham to Leeds would be nice .

That would completely defeat the point of the service. Meadowhall would be a more sensible compromise.

Except when the LNER trains are cancelled or delayed when the Northern stoppers are rammed.

Not much that can be done about that though.

 

[Northern158170]

The main motivation for many of these youngsters will be to get home as soon as possible. Train conditions will be treated as a secondary concern

 

[Kite159]

Surely the youngsters should be app savvy and could be more likely to stumble across train formation info? Also, regulars at Westgate are highly likely to know that: LNER run longer trains than other operators (generally) and that XC means being wedged next to a smelly toilet. You don’t need to be an expert to work those two things out after a couple of weeks of travelling! As a regular on the line the LNER trains carry more Leeds-Wakefield commuters than the Northern stoppers do.

Or they are the sort who will buy a cheap advance on the day for the Northern stopper but still board the XC/LNER knowing the odds of a ticket check are minimal.

And considering the LNER trains have 5+ coaches you would hope they would carry more commuters than the likely 2 coach 150 or 158 on the northern stopper

 

[YorksLad12]

The main motivation for many of these youngsters will be to get home as soon as possible. Train conditions will be treated as a secondary concern

This is in the morning going to school. I imagine they take a bit longer going home unless they’ve a connection tomake. I never used to go straight home.

And considering the LNER trains have 5+ coaches you would hope they would carry more commuters than the likely 2 coach 150 or 158 on the northern stopper

I think (at the moment) the next train to Westgate would be the stopper to Doncaster, so three or four carriages.

 

[Iskra]

Or they are the sort who will buy a cheap advance on the day for the Northern stopper but still board the XC/LNER knowing the odds of a ticket check are minimal.

And considering the LNER trains have 5+ coaches you would hope they would carry more commuters than the likely 2 coach 150 or 158 on the northern stopper

I doubt cheap advances exist on the Northern services at commuter times- they are literally bursting with the traffic from the intermediate stations into Leeds.

I bet a 4 car 333 has more seats than a 5 or maybe even a 7 carriage LNER train. The Northern stopper DMU’s do tend to also be more than 2 carriages at peak times.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Are Northern on the west side going to reinstate any cancelled Sunday services now they've recruited?

 

[Llandudno]

Are Northern on the west side going to reinstate any cancelled Sunday services now they've recruited?

But have they recruited any drivers or guards to have Sundays included in their working week?
I suspect I know the answer…….!

 

[td97]

Are Northern on the west side going to reinstate any cancelled Sunday services now they've recruited?

This article was published yesterday, which provides a summary of timetable changes in Lancashire.

Three East Lancashire train stations to become mandatory stops again

Pleasington, Hapton, and Burnley Barracks will become mandatory stops again under the new Northern timetable launched in December.

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk

Key quote

Northern has also said that the reduced Sunday timetable will continue to operate, with services across the county affected by this too.

 

[dk1]

But have they recruited any drivers or guards to have Sundays included in their working week?
I suspect I know the answer…….!

I very much doubt ASLEF or RMT would be having any of that. I am not personally aware of any negotiations currently going on to bring Sundays into the working week. The DfT I thought had made it clear it was too expensive even though unions were prepared to talk at many of the operators.

 

[Killingworth]

As I understand it Northern's negotiations are continuing with Lord Hendy encouraging resolution of this very long running issue. I suspect a potential deal will be put to union members in the new year. Everyone's wary of going to ballot too early and the repercussions of another rejection.

Watching RTT for the Sheffield-Piccadilly service it was very disappointing to see the cancelled trains removed from the timetable altogether in September - they'd remained, although unworked, since May.

Probably wishful viewing, but the full service appears again from 5th April. The point is well made that it's one thing getting an agreement, and the money to pay for it, but having enough trained crew members to operate all the currently missing services, at least at first, will be challenging.

 

[RiverDon]

I am not personally aware of any negotiations currently going on to bring Sundays into the working week.

Transport Scotland/ScotRail has been negotiating with ASLEF to bring Sundays inside for drivers for many months now and is about to make an offer very soon according to our union reps. Apparently it's just waiting for the Transport Minister to sign off the figures and that is expected imminently. This is why ScotRail has been recruiting so many trainees over the last three years.

 

[dk1]

Transport Scotland/ScotRail has been negotiating with ASLEF to bring Sundays inside for drivers for many months now and is about to make an offer very soon according to our union reps. Apparently it's just waiting for the Transport Minister to sign off the figures and that is expected imminently. This is why ScotRail has been recruiting so many trainees over the last three years.

Good to hear mate. The Scottish government always seem so much more proactive.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that this thread is for the discussion of confirmed Dec 2025 timetable changes. It is not a discussion about changes to contracts or anything else for that matter

 

[Chiltern006]

Any new rare track this timetable?

 

[Peter749]

Any new rare track this timetable?

The ECML Diveunder at Marholm Jn is in use for a number of Peterborough - Lincon & v.v services -
08.46, 10.46, 14.46 & 16.46 ex PBO
08.18, 10.30, 14.30, 16.30 & 19.30 arrivals from Lincoln

Pointed out in another post is Glenrothes to Thornton North jn has at least one train each wat

 

[louis97]

The ECML Diveunder at Marholm Jn is in use for a number of Peterborough - Lincon & v.v services -
08.46, 10.46, 14.46 & 16.46 ex PBO
08.18, 10.30, 14.30, 16.30 & 19.30 arrivals from Lincoln

Pointed out in another post is Glenrothes to Thornton North jn has at least one train each wat

Neither are new. The former is already done by a small number of trains between Peterborough and Lincoln. The latter is already done by the hourly train from Glenrothes to Leven.

 

[Peter749]

Neither are new. The former is already done by a small number of trains between Peterborough and Lincoln. The latter is already done by the hourly train from Glenrothes to Leven.

I did not say they are new but the limited number of trains mean they get an entry in the PSUL
Although I was unaware of one of the Leven services running that way.

It is interesting you were correcting my comments without adding anything to the list of Rare Track - presumably there is no rare track this year?

 

[MatthewHutton]

Why is this?

If you look at the passenger flow data there are 32,000 one way trips from Blackpool to London (or 64,000 in both directions). In comparison e.g. Oxenholme Lake District on its own is nearly double that and even e.g. Windermere where you also have to change gets fairly similar numbers to Blackpool.

Bigger destinations like Manchester Piccadilly get over 3 million trips in both directions - which is 50x the Blackpool number. So you see why it’s tough to justify Blackpool service.

 

[Fleetwoodflyer]

If you look at the passenger flow data there are 32,000 one way trips from Blackpool to London (or 64,000 in both directions). In comparison e.g. Oxenholme Lake District on its own is nearly double that and even e.g. Windermere where you also have to change gets fairly similar numbers to Blackpool.

Bigger destinations like Manchester Piccadilly get over 3 million trips in both directions - which is 50x the Blackpool number. So you see why it’s tough to justify Blackpool service.

I agree that the loadings are not great, but I feel they would be greater if they were not turned back at Preston on a regular basis.

 

[hibtastic]

Just been looking at the changes for East Linton and Dunbar. The increased TPE services are welcome but what’s the point in the ScotRail services when all they do is follow less than 10 mins behind the TPE services? Why can’t they run in the alternate hours that the TPE services don’t.

Example (departures from Edinburgh southbound calling at East Linton and Dunbar):

10:08 TPE to Newcastle
10:14 SR to Dunbar
12:08 TPE to Newcastle
12:15 SR to Dunbar
14:08 TPE to Newcastle
14:15 SR to Dunbar

Those ScotRail services just seem pointless to me and would have been much better in the alternate hours to the TPE.

The late night services are still awful too.

 

[Peter0124]

Just been looking at the changes for East Linton and Dunbar. The increased TPE services are welcome but what’s the point in the ScotRail services when all they do is follow less than 10 mins behind the TPE services? Why can’t they run in the alternate hours that the TPE services don’t.

Example (departures from Edinburgh southbound calling at East Linton and Dunbar):

10:08 TPE to Newcastle
10:14 SR to Dunbar
12:08 TPE to Newcastle
12:15 SR to Dunbar
14:08 TPE to Newcastle
14:15 SR to Dunbar

Those ScotRail services just seem pointless to me and would have been much better in the alternate hours to the TPE.

The late night services are still awful too.

The Scotrail's are only good for Musselburgh and Wallyford as they run in the other half hour of the North Berwick stoppers. But for East Linton and Dunbar yes that is pointless.

It's not much better westbound either at East Linton with the Scotrail being 20 minutes after the TPE, then nothing for 100.

 

[Acfb]

Just been looking at the changes for East Linton and Dunbar. The increased TPE services are welcome but what’s the point in the ScotRail services when all they do is follow less than 10 mins behind the TPE services? Why can’t they run in the alternate hours that the TPE services don’t.

Example (departures from Edinburgh southbound calling at East Linton and Dunbar):

10:08 TPE to Newcastle
10:14 SR to Dunbar
12:08 TPE to Newcastle
12:15 SR to Dunbar
14:08 TPE to Newcastle
14:15 SR to Dunbar

Those ScotRail services just seem pointless to me and would have been much better in the alternate hours to the TPE.

The late night services are still awful too.

The Saturday timetable makes more sense in terms of spacing and the improved morning peak service is welcome but the Scotrail fares are daft as well IMO which they need to fix.

Maybe they could axe the Mon-Fri off peak SR services but still keep the late evening and Saturday ones. They do interwork with the North Berwick services though so don't know how the 385s could be redeployed.

 

[MatthewHutton]

I agree that the loadings are not great, but I feel they would be greater if they were not turned back at Preston on a regular basis.

Undoubtedly that is true, and there is definitely an interchange penalty, for example Milton Keynes to Liverpool has 40% of the passengers of Milton Keynes to Manchester where both are direct, whereas for Oxford where only Manchester is direct Liverpool has only 14% of the passengers that Manchester does.

That would imply 175,000 one way trips between Blackpool and London with hourly direct service, or an increase of 110,000.

However if you extended the train to Windermere instead, then you would be looking at something like 300,000 one way trips from Windermere (or an increase of 240,000) as you would be doubling the frequency as well as providing direct service. Additionally you would be looking at something like an extra 120,000 passengers a year each for Oxenholme and Penrith. That would give you a total improvement of half a million passengers a year which is a much, much larger boost than you could get out of Blackpool.

I am sure there would be even stronger wins from having additional service north of Weaver Junction to allow you to have faster service to Glasgow and to have hourly service from London to Oxenholme and Penrith and to have direct Glasgow trains calling at Milton Keynes.

 

[moonarrow458]

A very minor change that i don't think has been picked up on is that on Sundays 9M11 - the 08:02 Luton to St Pancras stopping Thameslink service, is extended to start back from Bedford in service at 07:42 instead of running ECS, and will run non-stop to Luton then all regular stops. This fills a gap between the 07:30 and 08:00 services from Bedford just before the service ramps up to 4tph.

 

[Chiltern006]

The 07:00 Manchester to London has been (rightfully) restored.

 

[Ellis101]

Looks like the Avanti Liverpool South Parkway stops have finally been confirmed as they are now bookable, albeit pick up/drop off only which I do wonder how they'll enforce other than not selling tickets for the train.

But I can imagine someone with a paper anytime ticket to/from Lime Street would just try to hop on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But I can imagine someone with a paper anytime ticket to/from Lime Street would just try to hop on.

Enthusiasts might, but the vast majority of people going to central Liverpool from South Parkway will just go downstairs to Merseyrail, particularly once contactless payment is available. They may well not enforce it depending on its purpose which may not relate to revenue.

 

[A S Leib]

which may not relate to revenue.

That wouldn't be surprising, given that a Runcorn to Lime Street anytime day return's £11.60, considerably cheaper than the difference between fares from Watford Junction vs Milton Keynes Central to Euston; charging people from the next stop wouldn't bring much more in per passenger in Liverpool's case.