December 2025 Timetable Change - Confirmed changes only

[Watershed]

The 07:00 Manchester to Euston is the only one I can plausibly believe is withdrawn due to capacity/performance reasons. The others are probably just lightly loaded trains that Avanti have taken the opportunity to withdraw under the same guise.

 

[hexagon789]

The 07:00 Manchester to Euston is the only one I can plausibly believe is withdrawn due to capacity/performance reasons. The others are probably just lightly loaded trains that Avanti have taken the opportunity to withdraw under the same guise.

As I read it, Avanti were asked to withdraw them by Network Rail, AWC went to the ORR to get the temporary paths upheld again and the ORR instead this time agreed with Network Rail.

 

[Watershed]

As I read it, Avanti were asked to withdraw them by Network Rail, AWC went to the ORR to get the temporary paths upheld again and the ORR instead this time agreed with Network Rail.

Do you have a link to the documents where this is discussed?

 

[The Planner]

Do you have a link to the documents where this is discussed?

It was an access/contingent rights issue I think. I suspect its TTP2690

https://accessdisputesrail.org/accessDisputesCommitteeIndex/TTPDeterminations/#gsc.tab=0

 

[dk1]

The 07:00 Manchester to Euston is the only one I can plausibly believe is withdrawn due to capacity/performance reasons. The others are probably just lightly loaded trains that Avanti have taken the opportunity to withdraw under the same guise.

It’s a shame that service has been removed again.

 

[43055]

I'm not sure exactly what the performance risk or risks Network Rail identified were, but the following five services are withdrawn in December ostensibly for reasons of capcity and performance risk:

0700 Manchester - Euston
1932 Chester - Euston (weekdays)
1753 Holyhead - Euston (Sundays)
0939 Euston - Blackpool Nth (weekdays)
1252 Blackpool Nth - Euston (weekdays)

If that is the case then why does the 0700 Manchester - Euston still run at the same times as a long distance ECS?

Realtime Trains | 3R19 0700 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston | 14/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 3R19 0700 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston on 14/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[hexagon789]

If that is the case then why does the 0700 Manchester - Euston still run at the same times as a long distance ECS?

Realtime Trains | 3R19 0700 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston | 14/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 3R19 0700 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston on 14/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Strange, I never noticed the path re-appear as a Class 3.

Last time I looked, it simply wasn't showing in any shape nor form!

 

[WAB]

That’s very much a bus thing and causes much confusion and inconvenience.

Although that is often because the bus timetable data isn't configured with the actual term dates, so it doesn't appear correctly in downstream systems like Google or BusTimes.org...

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

If that is the case then why does the 0700 Manchester - Euston still run at the same times as a long distance ECS?

Realtime Trains | 3R19 0700 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston | 14/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 3R19 0700 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston on 14/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Possibly just to retain the integrity of the path in the timetable for future use. It may be just a placeholder and not run in practice.

 

[ayubdaud]

Presumably the unit still needs to get from Longsight to Euston for the rest of its diagram?

 

[Watershed]

Presumably the unit still needs to get from Longsight to Euston for the rest of its diagram?

They would rejig the other unit diagrams to balance the cancellation of that service.

 

[The Planner]

They would rejig the other unit diagrams to balance the cancellation of that service.

I don't think they have, I expect Wembley is 100% utilised for the start of service.

 

[Fleetwoodflyer]

I'm not sure exactly what the performance risk or risks Network Rail identified were, but the following five services are withdrawn in December ostensibly for reasons of capcity and performance risk:

0700 Manchester - Euston
1932 Chester - Euston (weekdays)
1753 Holyhead - Euston (Sundays)
0939 Euston - Blackpool Nth (weekdays)
1252 Blackpool Nth - Euston (weekdays)

This reinforces the locally held opinion that Avanti will do everything they can to avoid serving Blackpool North, even though they are not happy when someone else tries to. There have been several occasions when passengers have been ejected at Preston en route to London and had to wait there for an hour. The reason given is usually that the train is needed to go to Scotland.

 

[Peter0124]

I don't think they have, I expect Wembley is 100% utilised for the start of service.

Surely 9R20 (arriving at Euston 09:06, which goes off to Wembley) would work 1S48 (09:30 EUS-GLC) instead? As 1S48 was meant to be worked by the cancelled 07:00

The 07:00 Manchester to Euston is the only one I can plausibly believe is withdrawn due to capacity/performance reasons. The others are probably just lightly loaded trains that Avanti have taken the opportunity to withdraw under the same guise.

What do they mean by performance / capacity issues that would cause the cancelling of 07:00 MAN-EUS? Was it always late or something

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This reinforces the locally held opinion that Avanti will do everything they can to avoid serving Blackpool North, even though they are not happy when someone else tries to. There have been several occasions when passengers have been ejected at Preston en route to London and had to wait there for an hour. The reason given is usually that the train is needed to go to Scotland.

Is this actually being done at Avanti’s behest? I thought it was an industry oversight decision that had forced them to withdraw certain services.

 

[dk1]

This reinforces the locally held opinion that Avanti will do everything they can to avoid serving Blackpool North, even though they are not happy when someone else tries to. There have been several occasions when passengers have been ejected at Preston en route to London and had to wait there for an hour. The reason given is usually that the train is needed to go to Scotland.

I think Blackpool is rather seen as a basket case. It was like that in the latter BR days too.

 

[Peter0124]

Is this actually being done at Avanti’s behest? I thought it was an industry oversight decision that had forced them to withdraw certain services.

No that has happened, the token Blackpool run seems a sensible service to curtail in favour of starting a Scotland one with that unit if needed.

1P92 (09:39 EUS-Blackpool) has often been cancelled at Preston and turned into one of the 1Sxx or 1Mxx services starting there. IIRC.

 

[cle]

Blackpool is probably seen as a convenient turnback for Preston/W/W additional service, and Trent Valley service - if there was more room at Lancaster, that would work also.
So I could imagine it is truncated easily. Preston-Blackpool does have about 4tph in a normal hour so it's easy for people to move on, plus the South 1tph might be helpful for some.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this actually being done at Avanti’s behest? I thought it was an industry oversight decision that had forced them to withdraw certain services.

Avanti want to run them.

 

[Peter749]

What do they mean by performance / capacity issues that would cause the cancelling of 07:00 MAN-EUS? Was it always late or something

I think the 07.00 was cancelled off as it only called at Stockport and some mornings is a very quiet train
The alternative from Manchester is the 06.54 which is only 6 mins in front of the 07.00 and in at 09.06

Cancelling the train also saves AWC a Conductor and a full set of Catering Staff who would be doing Breakfasts along with the Buffet.

The 07.00 is show to arrive in P2 and work the 1S48 09.30 to Glasgow.

 

[dk1]

It looks as if the 3R19 07:00 Manchester-Euston does run after all. It’s showing in March. Is this just down to engineering works further up the WCML in January?

 

[berneyarms]

It looks as if the 3R19 07:00 Manchester-Euston does run after all. It’s showing in March. Is this just down to engineering works further up the WCML in January?

It’s still an empty coaching stock - look at the detail!

 

[dk1]

It’s still an empty coaching stock - look at the detail!

Oh yeah I suppose. I’m still thinking of class 5 as ECS and it’s class 9 rather than 3 for priority trains. I’m sure back in the day class 3 was parcels

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2025 ==

Actually, why are some shown as class 3? Is it so they can be reinstated and the path saved?

 

[jfollows]

Class 3 has recently been used for “important” empty stock workings, such as contra-peak flow workings after an early morning peak working to form a late morning peak working.

Realtime Trains | 3K07 0544 London Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City | 03/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 3K07 0544 departure from London Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City on 03/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C17 0755 London Liverpool Street to Gidea Park Middle Siding | 03/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C17 0755 departure from London Liverpool Street to Gidea Park Middle Siding on 03/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3R19 doesn’t match this, though, I agree. It may just be a “place holder” or because the stock needs to move whether or not in passenger service. I used to use it a lot until I moved to Wilmslow, so I guess it just means that the earlier service which goes via Wilmslow will be busier and more expensive than it would have been.

 

[Peter749]

It looks as if the 3R19 07:00 Manchester-Euston does run after all. It’s showing in March. Is this just down to engineering works further up the WCML in January?

If you read my reply above yours there is a more logical explanation of not running 3 trains to Euston in a 20 min period 06.54, 07.00 & 07.15

 

[390136]

I think the 07.00 was cancelled off as it only called at Stockport and some mornings is a very quiet train
The alternative from Manchester is the 06.54 which is only 6 mins in front of the 07.00 and in at 09.06

Cancelling the train also saves AWC a Conductor and a full set of Catering Staff who would be doing Breakfasts along with the Buffet.

The 07.00 is show to arrive in P2 and work the 1S48 09.30 to Glasgow.

The train runs to form the 09:30 to Glasgow as you have suggested. It doesn’t really save any crew as they’re required in London for next working.

 

[dk1]

The train runs to form the 09:30 to Glasgow as you have suggested. It doesn’t really save any crew as they’re required in London for next working.

Pass on the 06:54 then Or thinking about it the 06:29 as 24 mins wouldn’t be reliable or give them time to set up. Then again will the 07:00 just run anyway as ECS some days?

 

[Peter749]

The train runs to form the 09:30 to Glasgow as you have suggested. It doesn’t really save any crew as they’re required in London for next working.

The 09.30 would be worked by Euston catering crew. The Driver, and Conductor if it was a passenger service, off the 07.00 would not return so quickly

Pass on the 06:54 then

Or thinking about it the 06:29 as 24 mins wouldn’t be reliable or give them time to set up. Then again will the 07:00 just run anyway as ECS some days?

Why does the 09.30 need to be worked by Manchester Catering staff?

 

[Toby268]

The 09.30 would be worked by Euston catering crew. The Driver, and Conductor if it was a passenger service, off the 07.00 would not return so quickly

The 0930 is not worked by Euston Catering crew, or driver or TM.

 

[Peter749]

The 0930 is not worked by Euston Catering crew, or driver or TM.

Currently or from December 14?

Could be worked by the Crew off 1R08 from Lancaster arr 08.00

There are a few inbound workings that run ECS to Wembley such as 9R20 from Manchester arr 09.06 working 5R20 09.42 to Wembley IC Depot