December 2022 Timetable Changes

[chrisp37]

I would love to see the restoration of 4 tph through Worcester Park in the off-peak. We now effectively have what used to be the old pre-Covid Sunday service at all times aside from the morning peak.

It's not just a case of the trains being busy, but there are a number of journeys that now require an almost 30 minute wait for a connecting train, which makes rail a significantly less attractive option for that journey.

Even if not in the near future, I really do hope SWR re-instate the pre-Covid levels of service on this line at some point.

 

[Class 466]

Medway to & from HS1 goes down to hourly all day. I just hope they put on 12 car trains otherwise it'll often be crush loading.

That's been hourly since 2020, with 6 cars off peak.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's been hourly since 2020, with 6 cars off peak.

But presumably the difference is, that was a temporary Covid timetable. This appears to be a redesigned permanent timetable.

 

[Man_with_beard]

I've noticed from December a massive back track on Birminghams cross city route.

1) Redditch to Birmingham New Street: two trains per hour (down from three)
2) Longbridge to Birmingham New Street: four trains per hour (down from six)
2) Lichfield to Birmingham New Street: SHOCKING two trains per hour (down from four)
3) No Redditch to Lichfield direct during weekdays, everything off Redditch terminates at Four Oaks and vice versa.



Monday to Friday becoming nearly a Sunday service.

Is this a permanent move or is the cross city route still living in the coronavirus bubble?

 

[Watershed]

I've noticed from December a massive back track on Birminghams cross city route.

1) Redditch to Birmingham New Street: two trains per hour (down from three)
2) Longbridge to Birmingham New Street: four trains per hour (down from six)
2) Lichfield to Birmingham New Street: SHOCKING two trains per hour (down from four)
3) No Redditch to Lichfield direct during weekdays, everything off Redditch terminates at Four Oaks and vice versa.



Monday to Friday becoming nearly a Sunday service.

Is this a permanent move or is the cross city route still living in the coronavirus bubble?

This isn't new. It's been that way pretty much since Covid began.

It's very disappointing but unfortunately it's the rubbish way the timetable structure is going to stay, unless or until there is investment at Kings Norton to allow the forthcoming Camp Hill service to operate independently from the Cross City service.

You do wonder what would have happened without Covid though...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's comparable to Merseyrail and more punctual - so as long as everything is double sets (which it is) I think it was a sensible choice.

How much demand is there *actually* for Redditch to Lichfield? It's just operational convenience of not clogging New St up by terminating stuff there, as is common for bus services and Merseyrail (the Southports pretty much tip out at Central and an entirely new set of passengers board for Hunts X).

 

[Watershed]

It's comparable to Merseyrail and more punctual - so as long as everything is double sets (which it is) I think it was a sensible choice.

Because the timetable hasn't been recast (merely trains removed from it), it has an annoying 10-20 interval. Trains are very busy even with double sets. It's a significant mistake in my view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because the timetable hasn't been recast (merely trains removed from it), it has an annoying 10-20 interval. Trains are very busy even with double sets. It's a significant mistake in my view.

Isn't December recasting it to clean 4tph intervals, or am I thinking of the Snow Hill lines?

 

[Watershed]

Isn't December recasting it to clean 4tph intervals, or am I thinking of the Snow Hill lines?

Snow Hill was supposed to go to 4tph clockface but that's been deferred to May (at the moment). Cross City hasn't been recast and has no prospect of being.

 

[dk1]

I've noticed from December a massive back track on Birminghams cross city route.

1) Redditch to Birmingham New Street: two trains per hour (down from three)
2) Longbridge to Birmingham New Street: four trains per hour (down from six)
2) Lichfield to Birmingham New Street: SHOCKING two trains per hour (down from four)
3) No Redditch to Lichfield direct during weekdays, everything off Redditch terminates at Four Oaks and vice versa.



Monday to Friday becoming nearly a Sunday service.

Is this a permanent move or is the cross city route still living in the coronavirus bubble?

I thought WMR had already said last year that they where keeping the 4tph over the core section & that they would not be returning to the 6tph frequency.

 

[The Planner]

Kings Norton isnt likely until 2028 at the earliest.

 

[pompeyfan]

Indeed. SWR state that off-peak passenger numbers are back to 100% of pre-Covid yet off-peak service levels are not and not planned to be either from December, except for a few isolated tweakings.

One ongoing issue of course is lack of rolling stock. Unless the 701s enter service we are stuck with the current service levels on the electrified network for good.

There is enough rolling stock though for a full off peak service, as is shown every Saturday (admittedly we are now entering engineering works season), however that would impact the peak as units would need to be shorter than on their current M-F diagrams. There are still several service that start from depots as 12.450s or 10.444s that do not warrant a full formation as they’re too early, and yet later departures that arrive into Waterloo during the peak are forms as 5s or 8s.

 

[Goldfish62]

There is enough rolling stock though for a full off peak service, as is shown every Saturday (admittedly we are now entering engineering works season), however that would impact the peak as units would need to be shorter than on their current M-F diagrams. There are still several service that start from depots as 12.450s or 10.444s that do not warrant a full formation as they’re too early, and yet later departures that arrive into Waterloo during the peak are forms as 5s or 8s.

The full pre-Covid timetable is not run on Saturdays by any means. Hounslow loop services do not run at all (Hounslow only gets the 2bph Weybridge service) and the Dorking line remains cut by 50%.

Restoring both of these would require a significant amount of extra rolling stock and the short formations and overcrowding on Saturdays suggests that there's not enough stock as it is.

 

[Chiltern006]

What's the rationale for one of the Maidstones going to Charing Cross, incidentally?

If they want simpler timetables, surely you'd get that with an even-interval (at the London end) 30-min service from Victoria (only), one train calling at all stations on the line (after the Sevenoaks diverges) to Maidstone East and the other to Ashford skipping some of the smaller stations. Would also, I guess, fix the Bromley gaps.

They only came up with that idea in 1982!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==



Another interesting thing about this line is that much more recently than that, there were peak-only through London services at both ends. The through services at the Strood end continued perhaps into the 90s(?) though at the Paddock Wood end they were present in 1982 but had gone by 1986.

For example in 1982 there was a 1720 and a 1740 from Charing Cross to Ashford/Maidstone (the former 6Hap/4EPB, and the latter 4Vep/4Cep/4EPB - in both cases the EPB going to Maidstone).

Apologies to go back to this, but its a shame the services (fast ones anyway) arent as even as they are now, they are every 14/16 minutes, at xx03,xx17, xx33 and xx47

 

[GoneSouth]

Nothing more annoying than reading people from suburban London complaining about reductions to 6 trains per hour

 

[Busaholic]

Charlton is going to last and people will exist happily without Charing Cross trains.

Shame they should cease so soon after the century old direct bus route 53 from Charlton, every few minutes at all times of day, got cut back to the wrong side of Westminster Bridge by TfL planners.

 

[Bald Rick]

If the off-peak passengers fit on fewer trains, it makes complete sense not to restore off-peak frequencies whilst the peak revenues aren't available to provide cross subsidy.

Exactly!

 

[Class 170101]

If the off-peak passengers fit on fewer trains, it makes complete sense not to restore off-peak frequencies whilst the peak revenues aren't available to provide cross subsidy.

Exactly!

Except one needs to remember that if you remove off peak trains to reduce frequency the service may become a less usable product. Also by removing early and late trains you may impact on the viability of other services.

Seen from experience on my local buses where the evening service was reduced so attending an event was pointless (would only be there for 20 minutes) as there was no bus to get home - it had been removed from the timetable during covid and has not been restored so the last bsu was some 40 minutes earlier.

 

[Goldfish62]

Exactly!

Unless you're suppressing further off peak growth due to unattractive frequencies and lack of capacity.

 

[JonathanH]

Except one needs to remember that if you remove off peak trains to reduce frequency the service may become a less usable product. Also by removing early and late trains you may impact on the viability of other services.

Seen from experience on my local buses where the evening service was reduced so attending an event was pointless (would only be there for 20 minutes) as there was no bus to get home - it had been removed from the timetable during covid and has not been restored so the last bsu was some 40 minutes earlier.

In most places, the railway is a long way from the position of the bus industry where evening and later buses no longer run. Half hourly services where once there were four trains an hour is not the end of the world if there is capacity on those trains.

Unless you're suppressing further off peak growth due to unattractive frequencies and lack of capacity.

If that extra growth costs more to provide than the revenue gained it isn't worth aiming for, particularly given that a lot of it is discretionary travel.

 

[Kite159]

The main issue I find with the weekday timetable on SWR off-peak is that the 3 fast trains from London to Basingstoke are at XX:05 [Weymouth], XX:09 [Portsmouth] & XX:20 [West of England Line] which is a bit bunched up.

As the connection from London into the Basingstoke - Salisbury stopper is that XX:20 train it means Andover & Salisbury are effectively 1tph from London, with a couple extras in the peak. At least on Saturdays it is 2tph due to the Salisbury stoppers starting from London as the XX:50

At least going the opposite direction it is roughly every 20 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In most places, the railway is a long way from the position of the bus industry where late night buses no longer run. Half hourly services where once there were four trains an hour is not the end of the world if there is capacity on those trains.

Half hourly is in many ways a "sweet spot". Frequent enough to be useful, infrequent enough to be punctual. The south WCML has run on a half hourly frequency base for years (generally 2tph to quieter stations, 4tph to busier, more to MKC) and people seem fine with it.

 

[Class 170101]

In most places, the railway is a long way from the position of the bus industry where evening and later buses no longer run. Half hourly services where once there were four trains an hour is not the end of the world if there is capacity on those trains.

Not yet maybe but have seen some in NR pushing for certain late trains to be removed from the timetable / replaced by road transport to get more access to the network.

 

[Bald Rick]

Except one needs to remember that if you remove off peak trains to reduce frequency the service may become a less usable product. Also by removing early and late trains you may impact on the viability of other services.

But if off peak travel is back at 100%, then it is evidently not being used less!

Unless you're suppressing further off peak growth due to unattractive frequencies and lack of capacity.

That is certainly a possibility. However, the marginal cost vs marginal revenue exercise will determine whether it is worth chasing the ’suppressed’ passengers.

 

[Class 170101]

But if off peak travel is back at 100%, then it is evidently not being used less!

Note I said may. However as others have previously said 10 reduced to 15 minute frequency probably isn't too bad but 30 down to 60 minute frequency becomes less usable.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not yet maybe but have seen some in NR pushing for certain late trains to be removed from the timetable / replaced by road transport to get more access to the network.

Now they've all but banned doing anything when trains are running they need more hours at night to get the work done

 

[Class 170101]

Now they've all but banned doing anything when trains are running they need more hours at night to get the work done

Or perhaps be more productive with the access they do have.

 

[43074]

If that extra growth costs more to provide than the revenue gained it isn't worth aiming for, particularly given that a lot of it is discretionary travel.

Might as well begin closure proceedings for most of the railway network with that kind of attitude

 

[JonathanH]

Might as well begin closure proceedings for most of the railway network with that kind of attitude

No. Where am I suggesting anything that extreme? There is a vast difference between hoping that the railway can overcome its challenges to offer a reliable and cost effective service, and imagining that there is an unlimited pot of money to restore services to March 2020 levels that don't match demand or revenue.

The December 2020 timetables we are discussing are clearly about establishing a viable railway in the face of severe cost challenges.

 

[Horizon22]

But presumably the difference is, that was a temporary Covid timetable. This appears to be a redesigned permanent timetable.

Yes it's a very poor offering for the Medway towns to just be 1tph and be increasingly looking permanent. I imagine HS2 costs are even larger than everything else and it's a substantial saving.