December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Bikeman78]

I’m not calling anyone a liar, I’m going by what I see, When I’m travelling either from Westcombe Park or Blackheath trains are much busier than they have been in the peaks in the last two years, so I can only go by my observations, I think most of us have moved on from covid now.

Even Cardiff is getting busy again. I looked over at platform 6 at 1630 and it was very busy. I understand that commuting less saves money but it doesn't suit everyone. They might have to start ramping timetables up again in a year or two, assuming there's any spare trains to do that.

 

[Verulamius]

Looking at the DFT weekly reports, rail is about up to 90% pre covid. But commuting is only around 75% with the London Tube even lower.

 

[Bald Rick]

Looking at the DFT weekly reports, rail is about up to 90% pre covid. But commuting is only around 75% with the London Tube even lower.

I genuinely don’t know where DfT get their numbers from, or what they include.

Commuting revenue is little more than half than Pre Covid. It is better in the provincial cities and inner London, and they typically (and obviously) pay much lower fares than longer distance commuters, so perhaps commusing numbers are at 75%, and revenue is much less. However in my experience of using various commuter lines in the past few weeks, I’d say commuting numbers are nearer 50% than 75%.

 

[Starmill]

I genuinely don’t know where DfT get their numbers from, or what they include.

Commuting revenue is little more than half than Pre Covid. It is better in the provincial cities and inner London, and they typically (and obviously) pay much lower fares than longer distance commuters, so perhaps commusing numbers are at 75%, and revenue is much less. However in my experience of using various commuter lines in the past few weeks, I’d say commuting numbers are nearer 50% than 75%.

And today and tomorrow will be rather busier than usual as there's next to no service on Saturday and a limited service on Sunday.

 

[Llandudno]

I'm surprised Chester-Liverpool via Helsby isn't going back to an hourly service, especially with the 197 introduction.

Still no signs of the 197s entering passenger service.

Still plenty on training runs, at this rate they will probably need repainting before actually entering passenger service…!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Even Cardiff is getting busy again. I looked over at platform 6 at 1630 and it was very busy. I understand that commuting less saves money but it doesn't suit everyone. They might have to start ramping timetables up again in a year or two, assuming there's any spare trains to do that.

I find myself struggling to find a seat sometimes so commuting is definitely on the up, I feel this is a knee jerk reaction and as you say, they’ll have to reassess in a year or two, if not sooner.

 

[Bald Rick]

I find myself struggling to find a seat sometimes so commuting is definitely on the up, I feel this is a knee jerk reaction and as you say, they’ll have to reassess in a year or two, if not sooner.

Knee jerk it is not - it’s been in the planning for years!

 

[Bikeman78]

Knee jerk it is not - it’s been in the planning for years!

What has been planned for years?

 

[KingJ]

I genuinely don’t know where DfT get their numbers from, or what they include.

Details on how usage stats are calculated are published here. For rail, it is calculated from ticket sale data as held by LENNON.

 

[Bald Rick]

What has been planned for years?

The Southeastern timetable change.

Details on how usage stats are calculated are published here. For rail, it is calculated from ticket sale data as held by LENNON.

I know that, what I meant (but didn’t explain at all well), is I don’t know how the DfT use that Lennon data, when other data that comes from Lennon gives such a different answer.

 

[miklcct]

I have noticed that the Sunday 23:52 Hayes - Charing Cross non-stop no longer exists in the new timetable, and the last train will become the 23:30 stopping service instead.

I'll try to make time to get a full video before this super fast service disappears.

 

[Doppelganger]

As the thread suggests, Southeastern are changing their timetable from December.

Does anyone know what actual changes are taking place?

Article from the BBC below:

Southeastern announces 'simpler' timetable due to fall in commuting

The train operator says the new timetable will be more reliable and cope better with problems.

www.bbc.co.uk

Southeastern is bringing in a new timetable in December in response to a large fall in commuting since the pandemic.
The operator said it would also be scrapping first class on its services between London, Kent and East Sussex.
Under the new timetable, the company said most trains would leave stations at about the same time each hour, with extra services at peak times.
The changes come into effect on Sunday 11 December.
Scott Brightwell, Operations and Safety Director for Southeastern, said: "Our customers tell us reliability and punctuality are their highest priorities. So, we've simplified routes to remove bottlenecks which will see more trains running on time, fewer cancellations, and a more reliable service.
"The simpler structure of the timetable means we can more add more trains into the timetable as demand changes."
Removing first class will also free up 60 seats a day on a 12-car train.
When asked by the BBC if the new timetable would mean cuts to services, a spokesman said it would "have a very similar number of train services to today but will be structured to better match space on trains with demand and therefore be more efficient."

Southeastern said between February and July 2022 weekday peak demand was only 56% of pre-pandemic levels.

Weekday off peak had recovered by 77% and weekend journeys by 90%.

In the same period, weekly, monthly and annual season ticket journeys were down 32% on the six months before the pandemic, with the figure for annual season tickets at just 15%.

The changes will see a new all-day service between Charing Cross and Maidstone East, via London Bridge, but customers on the Hayes line wanting to go to Cannon Street, and Greenwich customers heading to Charing Cross will need to change trains at London Bridge.

 

[43096]

I genuinely don’t know where DfT get their numbers from, or what they include.

Commuting revenue is little more than half than Pre Covid. It is better in the provincial cities and inner London, and they typically (and obviously) pay much lower fares than longer distance commuters, so perhaps commusing numbers are at 75%, and revenue is much less. However in my experience of using various commuter lines in the past few weeks, I’d say commuting numbers are nearer 50% than 75%.

That tallies with my experience on commuting into London. Loadings are the same as they were pre-pandemic in the middle of the week peaks, but the peak service is around 50% of what it used to be. That hasn’t really changed for some time now.

 

[Class 466]

I have noticed that the Sunday 23:52 Hayes - Charing Cross non-stop no longer exists in the new timetable, and the last train will become the 23:30 stopping service instead.

I'll try to make time to get a full video before this super fast service disappears.

The 2352 is an unadvertised service - only runs because there's no staff at Hayes to do an empty check.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 2352 is an unadvertised service - only runs because there's no staff at Hayes to do an empty check.

Why on earth not advertise it? Might be useful for someone.

 

[CarrotPie]

The 2352 is an unadvertised service - only runs because there's no staff at Hayes to do an empty check.

It's not the only one - I checked RTT a few days ago and there were three or four each night. They run to Lewisham and then as ECS to Grove Park.

 

[akm]

When asked by the BBC if the new timetable would mean cuts to services, a spokesman said it would "have a very similar number of train services to today but will be structured to better match space on trains with demand and therefore be more efficient."

The fact that the first word of the answer wasn't "no" means we can immediately conclude that the answer is, in fact, "yes"


edit there are lots of details on the dedicated page on their website

 

[miklcct]

The 2352 is an unadvertised service - only runs because there's no staff at Hayes to do an empty check.

It is an advertised service, shown on Southeastern timetable and National Rail journey planners.

 

[Richardr]

Details on how usage stats are calculated are published here. For rail, it is calculated from ticket sale data as held by LENNON.

The issue is that commuters never used to buy tickets (in general) - they would buy an annual season, normally at the start of the year, which was when price rises used to come in. Thus, pre Covid tickets purchases on a daily basis were low for commuter services except for a couple of busy periods.

Now that commuters (in general) are less likely to want a one-off annual season ticket, sales of weekly, daily, and the like are more likely. Hence their numbers are comparing apples with pears.

 

[30907]

As the thread suggests, Southeastern are changing their timetable from December.

Does anyone know what actual changes are taking place?

Article from the BBC below:

Southeastern announces 'simpler' timetable due to fall in commuting

The train operator says the new timetable will be more reliable and cope better with problems.

www.bbc.co.uk

Extensive discussion on the December timetable thread but it includes a major rejig through Lewisham to reduce movements over the crossovers, one result that Bexleyheath offpeak only gets Victoria and Cannon St (but at least Hayes- Victoria is dead!).
Barnehurst-Slade Green wins, Crayford-Slade Green loses.

Pluses:
Charing X-Maidstone E fast service all day (at the expense of Blackfriars/Victoria partly)
Medway Valley half hourly through to Paddock Wood (but only a handful to Tonbridge).

 

[island]

The main change in the suburban section is trying to reduce the amount of crossing trains at Lewisham. As a consequence, the Hayes line will now only have Charing Cross services (no more Cannon Street), the Bexleyheath line will have service to and from Cannon Street and Victoria all day but Charing Cross will be peak-only, and the Woolwich line will have all Cannon Street services.

Sidcup line is basically unscathed unless you live in Albany Park which (alone) will drop to 2tph off peak.

Local whining and change.org petitions have already kicked off.

 

[JetStream]

Still no signs of the 197s entering passenger service.

Still plenty on training runs, at this rate they will probably need repainting before actually entering passenger service…!

In saying this you've reminded me - they were due down the Conwy Valley Line on Monday just gone weren't they?!

 

[Llandudno]

In saying this you've reminded me - they were due down the Conwy Valley Line on Monday just gone weren't they?!

There were strong rumours of 197s running to Blaenau Ffestiniog in September…problem is they didn’t state which September!

 

[Starmill]

Why on earth not advertise it? Might be useful for someone.

It would be likely to confuse people that it does not stop at London Bridge. Of course a comment associated with that train only on the screen at Hayes that says "Non-stop to London Charing Cross. Does not stop at London Bridge or London Waterloo East." would do the trick.

Furthermore, when it's withdrawn because its inbound isn't running either due to engineering work, no replacement bus runs for this service.

On the night of Sunday 16 October the train has not been marked 'unadvertised' too:

 

[4BEP]

Is anything known to be happening in Kent that can be disclosed? Hoping that the Maidstone East and Medway Valley lines get 2tph off peak again, where they're currently only hourly midweek but seem capable of doing 2tph on Saturdays.

MDE gets 2tph off peak but one is MDE - CHX semi, the other is AFK-MDE-VIC serving all stations east of Maidstone and then the usual stopping pattern to Victoria. All the Blackfriars services are gone including the longstanding peak services. Medway Valley is 2tph with most terminating at Paddock Wood. The two peak hour High Speed services to/from St Pancras remain.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The key problem with the new frequency on the Maidstone East line is a combination of “bunching” of services, and then bad connections at Maidstone, and the loss of the second train an hour between Maidstone and Ashford. The last one is the most crucial because you’re missing the fact that Maidstone is a big place and needs connections to the wider Kent area, and the Ramsgate service is arguably one of the best outcomes of COVID due to the fact you had through services to a multitude of places (and vice versa).

I believe Maidstone is the seat of the county council, meaning it’s always highest on the agenda. But to have the stopping services from Ashford to each of Canterbury West and to Dover, picking up the likes of Chilham and Westenhanger (they’d want to change at Ashford for fast London trains anyway), you’d be assuring the likes of Dover, Folkestone and Canterbury with a direct Maidstone service, as well as opening up leisure journey opportunities along the Maidstone East route.

 

[JonathanH]

The Maidstone line has never generated the level of demand of the other Southeastern routes. For a long time there was a 'fast' via that route. The fact it was chopped is a fairly clear sign that it wasn't worth running.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Maidstone line has never generated the level of demand of the other Southeastern routes. For a long time there was a 'fast' via that route. The fact it was chopped is a fairly clear sign that it wasn't worth running.

Nobody would deny that fast services to Maidstone East or West are a waste of time.

But a mostly stopping, regional service that also picks up local stops BUT with the key purpose of a half-hourly service to keep Maidstone connected to East Kent, and to give Maidstone line stations a solid connecting journey opportunity set at Ashford, is vital. The crew are even based at Ashford, so to not run them through is to just have a load sitting about to then go PASS either way to work a train to Charing Cross.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That and fitting all the test trains and seasonal trains into Tonbridge Platforms 1 and 2 is a nightmare for their reverse moves and other stops.

Seasonal trains could run into the West Yard to reverse don't have to disrupt passenger operations and test trains run a six week cycle. They manage perfectly well at Redhill including running round commercial traffic in the middle of the day using P0.

The railway can't organise itself for perfect operations at the expense of connectivity as that won't drive modal shift.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Seasonal trains could run into the West Yard to reverse don't have to disrupt passenger operations and test trains run a six week cycle. They manage perfectly well at Redhill including running round commercial traffic in the middle of the day using P0.

The railway can't organise itself for perfect operations at the expense of connectivity as that won't drive modal shift.

Running trains into the West Yard, unless they are coming from Redhill is an absolute nightmare.

Test Trains run on 4 weekly cycles mostly, secondly they have to have paths for the entirty of the timetable. Same with all seasonal trains and so forth. And with crashes like Salisbury, Seasonal trains paths are becoming wider in scope, they cannot be removed from the timetable. In fact, by the Network Code they are arguably the most important trains in the timetable.