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December 2022 Timetable Changes

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43074

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No. Where am I suggesting anything that extreme? There is a vast difference between hoping that the railway can overcome its challenges to offer a reliable and cost effective service, and imagining that there is an unlimited pot of money to restore services to March 2020 levels that don't match demand or revenue.

The December 2020 timetables we are discussing are clearly about establishing a viable railway in the face of severe cost challenges.
Most of the railway is about discretionary travel these days though, to suggest we shouldn't chase revenue because of that is nonsense as that segment of the market was never profitable to start with.

Establishing a viable or cost effective railway by only pursuing lower costs is only self defeating in the long run, prime example is the September cuts on GTR where ARL performance on the Sydenham corridor in the peaks has suffered because of overcrowding, and an increasing number of Southern services are experiencing crowding both on Southern Metro and Coastway because the timetable has been cut too far. All that does is constrain not promote growth.
 
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Starmill

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Might as well begin closure proceedings for most of the railway network with that kind of attitude
The problem to me seems to be that people aren't able to adjust to the new reality. Nobody is actually suggesting wholesale closures. All that's being suggested is that there need to be some efficiencies because the pre 2019 trend growth has disappeared. This consistent growth trend line was being used as an excuse for some very inefficient uses of resources as it was. Is it difficult to believe that this is perhaps overall a pragmatic approach? Or do you honestly believe that people are just Beeching / Serpell enthusiasts?

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Establishing a viable or cost effective railway by only pursuing lower costs is only self defeating in the long run
It's not though. There are lots of very profitable industries which are contracting rather than expanding. It's just that railway people only know what growth looks like so they're shocked and scared by the contraction.

Look at it this way. The railway industry has good prospects to return to trend growth within 10 - 20 years, unlike much bigger industries such as Tobacco or Oil and Gas. And yet those industries are still happily making a profit, knowing they're going to be wiped out.

Obviously we all agree that it's a shame that it has come to this, but the size of the shock has made it inevitable.
 

miklcct

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But theoretically you don’t have to stop at all stations. You could lose a couple, such as having one miss Beltring and Yalding, and the other East Farleigh and Cuxton, and therefore drive down the journey time by another 4 minutes. Push that to the Strood ends and it’s a bit less wobbly.

That's true, I'm not sure some of the smaller stations really justify two trains an hour.
If there are two trains per hour and even frequency is desired, they have to call at the approximately same number of stops. However, if they alternate stops, local connectivity will be destroyed so the only possibility is to have all trains calling at all stations to spread out the load.

Also, if as many suggest the peak may not come back for a few years, are we stuck with relatively poor off-peak services for many years to come? Will this encourage modal shift to the trains, or rather will it encourage modal shift to the car? For instance, Brighton to Southampton is deeply unattractive by train right now. Such a route should really have a semi-fast regional express type service, stopping at medium-sized and larger stations only (like the Portsmouth-Cardiff) - yet as a result of the cutbacks, it stops everywhere as far as Chichester.
Southampton - Brighton is a route which the fare over distance on off-peak fares is nearly the lowest in the country. The railway already wins by price alone.


In most places, the railway is a long way from the position of the bus industry where evening and later buses no longer run. Half hourly services where once there were four trains an hour is not the end of the world if there is capacity on those trains.


If that extra growth costs more to provide than the revenue gained it isn't worth aiming for, particularly given that a lot of it is discretionary travel.
For local travel, a reduction from 4 to 2 trains per hour massively reduces attractiveness. Look at South London on the routes where trains now only run at 2 trains per hour.

I would say that, for local urban travel, 4 trains per hour is the minimum frequency for a route to be useful.


Half hourly is in many ways a "sweet spot". Frequent enough to be useful, infrequent enough to be punctual. The south WCML has run on a half hourly frequency base for years (generally 2tph to quieter stations, 4tph to busier, more to MKC) and people seem fine with it.
It may be true for regional travel but definitely not on a local metro-type service.

Most of the railway is about discretionary travel these days though, to suggest we shouldn't chase revenue because of that is nonsense as that segment of the market was never profitable to start with.

Establishing a viable or cost effective railway by only pursuing lower costs is only self defeating in the long run, prime example is the September cuts on GTR where ARL performance on the Sydenham corridor in the peaks has suffered because of overcrowding, and an increasing number of Southern services are experiencing crowding both on Southern Metro and Coastway because the timetable has been cut too far. All that does is constrain not promote growth.
By pursuing lower costs, the railway can be sustainable without charging higher fares by price-competing against other modes of transport.

In the case of Southern Metro and West Coastway, metro trains (e.g. class 378) should be put on the route in order to increase capacity without increasing costs, as they are local metro services.
 

Bikeman78

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There was certainly a time when the Tunbridge Wells stopper ran all day, half-hourly, probably during the 00s and 10s. I definitely remember seeing a CWN which featured it, and noted that many trains were 10 or 12 coach even in the middle of the day.
There were six trains per hour from Charing Cross to Tonbridge from about 2000 to 2020. Before HS1 there were four trains to Ashford with the extra Tonbridge to Tunbridge Wells trains coming from the Redhill direction, starting back at Horsham or London Bridge.

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Do they fit on fewer trains though? Or are many of the off-peak services overcrowded? (Genuine question, haven't travelled M-F off-peak for a while so I don't actually know).
They didn't seem very crowded on Tuesday. Plenty of room on the eight car 455s though the trains to Alton and Basingstoke seemed a lot busier. One effect of the cutback Bookham service is that all the 455s have long turn rounds at Guildford. Cobham trains have about 25 minutes and the hourly Bookham has 43 minutes. Previously the two routes inter worked at Guildford. I'd forgotten how slack the SWR schedules are. Lots of hanging about.
 
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Goldfish62

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But if off peak travel is back at 100%, then it is evidently not being used less!




That is certainly a possibility. However, the marginal cost vs marginal revenue exercise will determine whether it is worth chasing the ’suppressed’ passengers.
Agreed, if you're taking a short term view (which successive governments are experts at) and have no interest in promoting modal shift.
 

James90012

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Indeed, revenue isn't the only measure of the railway's success - though I appreciate it is the main one at the moment. We shouldn't lose sight of that. Focusing only on revenue is the reason why the schemes coming forward now as Restoring Your Railways never got anywhere previously.

The other thing with reduced off peak services is the costs are marginal - you already have the drivers, the trains and the infrastructure to support the peak service so I'm not convinced that we're in a state of improving efficiency. That would only be true were the peak and off peak service levels to be the same which isn't the case in the South East at least, even now.

And to comments about the South East and frequency - it is fundamentally important for mobility in the London Suburbs to provide a high frequency, turn up and go service - I.e. at least 4 trains per hour.
 

duncombec

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If there are two trains per hour and even frequency is desired, they have to call at the approximately same number of stops. However, if they alternate stops, local connectivity will be destroyed so the only possibility is to have all trains calling at all stations to spread out the load.
Whilst this may be true in some areas, especially urban ones, the number of people travelling small village <> small village on the intermediates stops on this line is likely to be very low, if indeed any (and indeed, on the northern section and some other stations, there is a bus that gets far closer to the village centres). You need only look at the station usage figures to realise this is a line that is designed to get people to Strood, Maidstone or Paddock Wood/Tonbridge (and perhaps Aylesford, for the industrial estate).

In this case, it's a question of "destroying local connectivity" and more whether the minimal gains from skipping stations is worth losing the clockface timetable further down the line.
 

Edsmith

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Whilst this may be true in some areas, especially urban ones, the number of people travelling small village <> small village on the intermediates stops on this line is likely to be very low, if indeed any (and indeed, on the northern section and some other stations, there is a bus that gets far closer to the village centres). You need only look at the station usage figures to realise this is a line that is designed to get people to Strood, Maidstone or Paddock Wood/Tonbridge (and perhaps Aylesford, for the industrial estate).

In this case, it's a question of "destroying local connectivity" and more whether the minimal gains from skipping stations is worth losing the clockface timetable further down the line.
Albany Park has been deemed to no longer justify 4tph and I can't really see how East Farleigh and Beltring justify 2tph, one train can skip one of them and the train half hour later could skip the other to maintain the clockface service at Maidstone West and Paddock Wood, probably very little chance of anyone travelling between the two.
 

Starmill

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You could probably remove both Yalding and Beltring from one service and East Farleigh from the other. It would only knock out the departure times south of Maidstone West by a minute. However as Paddock Wood isn't a major draw the benefit of a 2 minute saving on the journey from Maidstone would be negligible.
 

Bald Rick

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The other thing with reduced off peak services is the costs are marginal - you already have the drivers, the trains and the infrastructure to support the peak service

Not necessarily the drivers.

Nevertheless, the marginal costs of running a service (crew, stock mileage, infrastructure mileage, fuel, etc) is still a non-trivial sum.
 

brad465

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Albany Park has been deemed to no longer justify 4tph and I can't really see how East Farleigh and Beltring justify 2tph, one train can skip one of them and the train half hour later could skip the other to maintain the clockface service at Maidstone West and Paddock Wood, probably very little chance of anyone travelling between the two.
One advantage of skipping East Farleigh is that the very congested level crossing is down less, as not only does it have to close to road traffic to allow a clear routing for a train, but the position of the signalling and station platforms means that the barriers are shut even while the train is at the station, because in both directions the platforms are before the crossing (while the signals are before the platforms). I still think if there are to be 2tph south of Maidstone West one should run non-stop between there and Paddock Wood and the other call at all stations, although it won't be of any benefit if there is no sooner connection at Paddock Wood or the train doesn't go to/from Tonbridge.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Talking of that Strood-Maidstone-Paddock Wood line, it just struck me that it stops arguably short of the main town/employment centre/rail junction for other connections at both ends. Not running through to Tonbridge at one end, and not reversing to go to at least Rochester, and probably Gillingham at the other end, must depress passenger numbers quite a bit.
 

brad465

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Talking of that Strood-Maidstone-Paddock Wood line, it just struck me that it stops arguably short of the main town/employment centre/rail junction for other connections at both ends. Not running through to Tonbridge at one end, and not reversing to go to at least Rochester, and probably Gillingham at the other end, must depress passenger numbers quite a bit.
The problem with a reversing move at Strood is its quite obstructive: Platform 2 is blocked while a reverse takes place (and is the only platform that can conduct an in passenger service reversing move), and nothing can leave platform 1 either when routing is clear. The first and last trains of the day to go to/from Gillingham, but probably because Gillingham depot is where the unit ultimately ends up.
 

Class 466

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Latest ORR usage figures released today suggest that in April to June 2022 Southeastern was at 66.4% of the demand over the same period in 2019. Still a long way to go and probably explains some of the moves in this next TT.

However the argument over whether cutting timetables to meet demand rather than allowing for further growth is something that affects pretty much every operator at the moment. (Except LNER who are running more services than pre-pandemic).
 

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DDB

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Latest ORR usage figures released today suggest that in April to June 2022 Southeastern was at 66.4% of the demand over the same period in 2019. Still a long way to go and probably explains some of the moves in this next TT.

However the argument over whether cutting timetables to meet demand rather than allowing for further growth is something that affects pretty much every operator at the moment. (Except LNER who are running more services than pre-pandemic).
That's very interesting, thanks for posting. I notice East Midlands Railway are in the very highy 90s yet apparently the government is still reluctant to let them restore the last few missing services as the class 170 rolling stock cascade allows.
 

JonathanH

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Latest ORR usage figures released today suggest that in April to June 2022 Southeastern was at 66.4% of the demand over the same period in 2019. Still a long way to go and probably explains some of the moves in this next TT.
Indeed, and it seems somewhat strange that on the back of that Southeastern isn't being made to release without replacement the 12 377/5s that Southern is said to need to release the 313s.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Indeed, and it seems somewhat strange that on the back of that Southeastern isn't being made to release without replacement the 12 377/5s that Southern is said to need to release the 313s.
Well a few major issues there. You’re 12 (?) short of 707s, a number of 465s and some 466s in storage, the 376s are about to have a lot of work done to them, and it seems the key loss of network usage is less in the Metro and more in the Provinces.

So getting rid of a few 377s is unhelpful, as they are needed to supplement an already stretched fleet (465/9s being used on Metro, etc).
 

Bald Rick

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That's very interesting, thanks for posting. I notice East Midlands Railway are in the very highy 90s yet apparently the government is still reluctant to let them restore the last few missing services as the class 170 rolling stock cascade allows.

Thats because they are carrying a lot more passengers south of Bedford that were ex GTR passengers On the EMR Connect services.

Worth remembering that the entire EMR Regional operation (the local services emanating from Nottingham, Derby and Lincoln) only brings in 5% of that TOC‘s revenue, but represents something like 70% of its cost.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Thats because they are carrying a lot more passengers south of Bedford that were ex GTR passengers On the EMR Connect services.

Worth remembering that the entire EMR Regional operation (the local services emanating from Nottingham, Derby and Lincoln) only brings in 5% of that TOC‘s revenue, but represents something like 70% of its cost.
Those MML services must bring a huge amount of Revenue!
 

Bald Rick

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Those MML services must bring a huge amount of Revenue!

Proportionally for the franchise, yes.

But the connect services will be taking a decent chunk out of GTR revenue via ORCATs too.

Bedford and the two Luton’s each have more London commuters than Wellingboro’, Kettering and Harboro’ combined.
 

miklcct

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But the connect services will be taking a decent chunk out of GTR revenue via ORCATs too.
Bedford and south of it don't have tickets to London Terminals except Advance tickets, only to London Thameslink.

I presume that EMR can only have a small share of it as journeys to only St Pancras are made on EMR, while those to other London Thameslink stations are always considered to be on Thameslink, right?
 

Watershed

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Bedford and south of it don't have tickets to London Terminals except Advance tickets, only to London Thameslink.

I presume that EMR can only have a small share of it as journeys to only St Pancras are made on EMR, while those to other London Thameslink stations are always considered to be on Thameslink, right?
No. London Thameslink is simply a station group. There is an allocation factor used to determine what percentage of passengers are deemed to travel to each of the stations in the group.

For each station in the group, the relevant percentage of total revenue is distributed according to the usual ORCATS principles.

It's exactly the same process as happens with tickets issued to London Terminals, and whilst no doubt EMR would get slightly more from a London Terminals ticket than an equivalent London Thameslink ticket, the difference is unlikely to be substantial.
 

Starmill

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For the avoidence of doubt, London St Pancras is a member of London Thameslink. In addition journeys to other stations in the group are still likely to be quicker by changing at London St Pancras and using EMR, if there's an EMR service from the origin station (and occasionally even if not). On that basis it's a significant proportion.
 

Bald Rick

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Bedford and south of it don't have tickets to London Terminals except Advance tickets, only to London Thameslink.

I presume that EMR can only have a small share of it as journeys to only St Pancras are made on EMR, while those to other London Thameslink stations are always considered to be on Thameslink, right?

You presume wrong. The station grouping for fares purposes is irrelevant. If it were a Thameslink only fare (it isn’t) then it would be an issue.
 

miklcct

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For the avoidence of doubt, London St Pancras is a member of London Thameslink. In addition journeys to other stations in the group are still likely to be quicker by changing at London St Pancras and using EMR, if there's an EMR service from the origin station (and occasionally even if not). On that basis it's a significant proportion.
Is changing still faster than direct even with the 15-minute change time between EMR and Thameslink at St Pancras?!

I am thinking it will be better off (faster) to go direct on a Thameslink train for anywhere beyond St Pancras, leaving EMR with no allocation for such journeys.
 

nw1

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The main issue I find with the weekday timetable on SWR off-peak is that the 3 fast trains from London to Basingstoke are at XX:05 [Weymouth], XX:09 [Portsmouth] & XX:20 [West of England Line] which is a bit bunched up.
That's likely (almost) the worst provision since before the early 80s; during the 80s and 90s there seemed to be consistently fairly well-spaced departures for Basingstoke.

IIRC Waterloo-Basingstoke fast trains, prior to the 2tph to Salisbury, were as follows:

80s - a Bournemouth/Poole semi-fast xx45 and Salisbury/Exeter around xx10 or xx15

Early 90s - Salisbury/Exeter became irregular for a while but there was now an xx10 to Portsmouth via Fareham. However I have a feeling one year, perhaps 1992, that the departures were at xx53 (Poole) and xx10 (Portsmouth), with occasional Exeters on top of that, which was fairly poor. This was fixed when the 159s came in (1993).

Mid 90s - xx35 Salisbury or Exeter; xx50 Poole semi-fast and xx10 Southampton Central

End of 90s - xx35 Salisbury or Exeter; xx45 Poole semi-fast; xx00 Poole fast and xx15 Southampton Central
 
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Kite159

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No. London Thameslink is simply a station group. There is an allocation factor used to determine what percentage of passengers are deemed to travel to each of the stations in the group.

For each station in the group, the relevant percentage of total revenue is distributed according to the usual ORCATS principles.

It's exactly the same process as happens with tickets issued to London Terminals, and whilst no doubt EMR would get slightly more from a London Terminals ticket than an equivalent London Thameslink ticket, the difference is unlikely to be substantial.

Wouldn't 100% of the ticket revenue from a "Bedford - London" ticket will go straight to the DfT, under the brave new world where EMR & Thameslink are just paid a management fee to run the trains?

That's likely (almost) the worst provision since before the early 80s; during the 80s and 90s there seemed to be consistently fairly well-spaced departures for Basingstoke.

IIRC Waterloo-Basingstoke fast trains, prior to the 2tph to Salisbury, were as follows:

80s - a Bournemouth/Poole semi-fast xx45 and Salisbury/Exeter around xx10 or xx15

Early 90s - Salisbury/Exeter became irregular for a while but there was now an xx10 to Portsmouth via Fareham. However I have a feeling one year, perhaps 1992, that the departures were at xx53 (Poole) and xx10 (Portsmouth), with occasional Exeters on top of that, which was fairly poor. This was fixed when the 159s came in (1993).

Mid 90s - xx35 Salisbury or Exeter; xx50 Poole semi-fast and xx10 Southampton Central

End of 90s - xx35 Salisbury or Exeter; xx45 Poole semi-fast; xx00 Poole fast and xx15 Southampton Central

And I'm sure pre Covid it was 5tph (off-peak) which were 'fast' to Basingstoke, with the Poole 'stopper' & Salisbury 'stopper' missing from the current timetable. I would imagine in some hours those Weymouth trains at 5 minutes passed the hour carry a good portion of Basingstoke passengers.
 

nw1

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Wouldn't 100% of the ticket revenue from a "Bedford - London" ticket will go straight to the DfT, under the brave new world where EMR & Thameslink are just paid a management fee to run the trains?



And I'm sure pre Covid it was 5tph (off-peak) which were 'fast' to Basingstoke, with the Poole 'stopper' & Salisbury 'stopper' missing from the current timetable. I would imagine in some hours those Weymouth trains at 5 minutes passed the hour carry a good portion of Basingstoke passengers.
Yes, that's right, departures were at 05-09-20-39-50 so pretty evenly spaced once again.

If they had to chop one, maybe they should have kept the xx39 rather than the xx09?
 

Starmill

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Wouldn't 100% of the ticket revenue from a "Bedford - London" ticket will go straight to the DfT, under the brave new world where EMR & Thameslink are just paid a management fee to run the trains?
No? It still physically goes to the same place. And then the contract nets off the bill after the fact.
 
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