December 2022 Timetable Changes

[ScotGG]

Why drop Albany Park alone?

Bigger issue seems to be there will be some really quite long service intervals while other trains are bunched together.

 

[cav1975]

Medway to & from HS1 goes down to hourly all day. I just hope they put on 12 car trains otherwise it'll often be crush loading.

 

[brad465]

Extensive discussion on the December timetable thread but it includes a major rejig through Lewisham to reduce movements over the crossovers, one result that Bexleyheath offpeak only gets Victoria and Cannon St (but at least Hayes- Victoria is dead!).
Barnehurst-Slade Green wins, Crayford-Slade Green loses.

I wonder how long the lack of a direct service from Crayford to Slade Green and beyond lasts, especially considering the extra difficulty getting to Abbey Wood for Crossrail from the eastern end of the Sidcup line.

Why drop Albany Park alone?

Bigger issue seems to be there will be some really quite long service intervals while other trains are bunched together.

Albany Park is the least used station on that line, although if one was going to drop it I'd drop it on the Gravesend-CHX train: a) to speed that service up, b) so Albany Park has a direct service to Lewisham like the rest of the line.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I wonder how long the lack of a direct service from Crayford to Slade Green and beyond lasts, especially considering the extra difficulty getting to Abbey Wood for Crossrail from the eastern end of the Sidcup line.


Albany Park is the least used station on that line, although if one was going to drop it I'd drop it on the Gravesend-CHX train: a) to speed that service up, b) so Albany Park has a direct service to Lewisham like the rest of the line.

All of this timetable is going to last. The only way a direct service from Crayford to Slade Green would be reintroduced is if more services were added back into the timetable.

 

[brad465]

All of this timetable is going to last. The only way a direct service from Crayford to Slade Green would be reintroduced is if more services were added back into the timetable.

So presumably passenger numbers would have to increase further, given there are a few peak direct "rounders".

 

[nw1]

"Under the new timetable, the company said most trains would leave stations at about the same time each hour, with extra services at peak times."

Isn't that precisely what southern England electric commuter services have done since the 1930s? A standard pattern off-peak, with a more frequent service in the peak?

I guess what they mean there is they will run the off-peak timetable through the peak, with peak extras added, rather than moving to an alternative peak pattern. From what I remember, "traditional" SE practice was to move to a 20-min pattern in the peak (or 22-min!) vice 30-min off peak - so I guess they mean they're changing that.

Advantages and disadvantages, I guess. Easier to plan, perhaps but also might lead to less even interval frequencies in the peak (e.g if the off-peak pattern is 00 and 30, but 3tph are desired in the peak, it could be argued that 00/20/40 is better in the peak than say 00/30/45).

 

[CarrotPie]

"Under the new timetable, the company said most trains would leave stations at about the same time each hour, with extra services at peak times."

Isn't that precisely what southern England electric commuter services have done since the 1930s? A standard pattern off-peak, with a more frequent service in the peak?

Yes indeed.

This new timetable seems to be consolidating services to the minimum number possible per hour, then running those with as many coaches as possible.

 

[nw1]

Just been checking the December timetable, and the removal of the Ramsgate services has left a big hole in the timetable from Bromley South to Victoria. There are a lot of services from xx.00 - xx.34, and then a 26 minute gap to the next service at xx.00. The service is no longer turn up and go. This is pretty disappointing; if services needed to be cut, then the remaining services should have spread out, rather than having a very lopsided timetable. Given the high loadings on the current services, I’m expecting bad overcrowding come December, especially on the xx.03 services.

Even-interval (ish) services to and from Bromley South are, IIRC, pretty long-standing, I remember the pattern in the slam-door days was consistently fast Chatham (2tph), followed shortly afterwards by slow Chatham - and then the Maidstone 15 mins or so later. For example, in 1982 it was 23/25/36/53/55/06, and in 1996 it was 05/11/18/35/41/48.

In 1981 it was different, with a more irregular timetable and another 26-min gap: 09/39 Chatham fasts, 54 faster Maidstone, 49 slow Chatham and 13 slow Chatham/slow Maidstone divider. So 09/13/39/49/54. Looks like 1982 was, therefore, the year of introduction of the 'familiar' pattern.

 

[JonathanH]

From what I remember, "traditional" SE practice was to move to a 20-min pattern in the peak (or 22-min!) vice 30-min off peak - so I guess they mean they're changing that.

The 66 minute peak hour with 3tph on most routes seems to be long gone in favour of a 2tph pattern on each route.

 

[30907]

The 66 minute peak hour with 3tph on most routes seems to be long gone in favour of a 2tph pattern on each route.

Gone, but not long gone. It was thinned out a bit, then adjusted for the London Bridge rebuild and TL Rainham service, but it is still recognisable in the Dec 2019 timetable, not very different from 40 years earlier apart from the "long" hour!
(Greenwich Meaner Time?!)

BTW - Albany Park is missing from the current Sidcup "fasts."

 

[Edsmith]

But theoretically you don’t have to stop at all stations. You could lose a couple, such as having one miss Beltring and Yalding, and the other East Farleigh and Cuxton, and therefore drive down the journey time by another 4 minutes. Push that to the Strood ends and it’s a bit less wobbly.

That's true, I'm not sure some of the smaller stations really justify two trains an hour.

 

[30907]

That's true, I'm not sure some of the smaller stations really justify two trains an hour.

By doing that, though, you simply worsen the connections at Paddock Wood (or Tonbridge, if you run through) - so would any increased revenue (offpeak only?) outweigh the cost of the additional mileage?

Incidentally, the original electrification timetable for the line included an hourly offpeak fast TON-PWD-MDW which connected (only in the Down direction) with the Hastings service. It was one of the 1967 timetable's economy cuts on the rural parts of the Southern Electric.

 

[317 forever]

A full page on all the changes:

Timetable updates | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

First Class is also going, although this isn't really a surprise given it's pretty much always empty.

This may well have been highlighted in other posts here. I can't quite tell though whether there will still be any off-peak trains from Victoria to Lewisham, and if so, where they will continue to?

EDIT: I have now seen that there will still be 2 such trains an hour, continuing via Bexleyheath but only as far as Dartford.

 

[Edsmith]

By doing that, though, you simply worsen the connections at Paddock Wood (or Tonbridge, if you run through) - so would any increased revenue (offpeak only?) outweigh the cost of the additional mileage?

Incidentally, the original electrification timetable for the line included an hourly offpeak fast TON-PWD-MDW which connected (only in the Down direction) with the Hastings service. It was one of the 1967 timetable's economy cuts on the rural parts of the Southern Electric.

I was thinking 1tph all stations Strood to Paddock Wood and 1tph Strood to Tonbridge fast Maidstone West to Paddock Wood.

On the subject of Tonbridge I wonder if an additional bay platform could be constructed east of the road bridge for the Medway Valley line service, avoiding conflict with the Tunbridge Wells line?

 

[CarrotPie]

I was thinking 1tph all stations Strood to Paddock Wood and 1tph Strood to Tonbridge fast Maidstone West to Paddock Wood.

Maybe the fast service could also stop at Wateringbury and/or Yalding? They're medium-sized villages and would appreciate 2tph to Tonbridge and Maidstone.

 

[nw1]

What's the rationale for one of the Maidstones going to Charing Cross, incidentally?

If they want simpler timetables, surely you'd get that with an even-interval (at the London end) 30-min service from Victoria (only), one train calling at all stations on the line (after the Sevenoaks diverges) to Maidstone East and the other to Ashford skipping some of the smaller stations. Would also, I guess, fix the Bromley gaps.

They only came up with that idea in 1982!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==

Incidentally, the original electrification timetable for the line included an hourly offpeak fast TON-PWD-MDW which connected (only in the Down direction) with the Hastings service. It was one of the 1967 timetable's economy cuts on the rural parts of the Southern Electric.

Another interesting thing about this line is that much more recently than that, there were peak-only through London services at both ends. The through services at the Strood end continued perhaps into the 90s(?) though at the Paddock Wood end they were present in 1982 but had gone by 1986.

For example in 1982 there was a 1720 and a 1740 from Charing Cross to Ashford/Maidstone (the former 6Hap/4EPB, and the latter 4Vep/4Cep/4EPB - in both cases the EPB going to Maidstone).

 

[Edsmith]

What's the rationale for one of the Maidstones going to Charing Cross, incidentally?

If they want simpler timetables, surely you'd get that with an even-interval (at the London end) 30-min service from Victoria (only), one train calling at all stations on the line (after the Sevenoaks diverges) to Maidstone East and the other to Ashford skipping some of the smaller stations. Would also, I guess, fix the Bromley gaps.

They only came up with that idea in 1982!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==



Another interesting thing about this line is that much more recently than that, there were peak-only through London services at both ends. The through services at the Strood end continued perhaps into the 90s(?) though at the Paddock Wood end they were present in 1982 but had gone by 1986.

For example in 1982 there was a 1720 and a 1740 from Charing Cross to Ashford/Maidstone (the former 6Hap/4EPB, and the latter 4Vep/4Cep/4EPB - in both cases the EPB going to Maidstone).

There have been calls for a direct service from Maidstone to London Bridge since the Cannon Street service was withdrawn some years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2022 ==

Maybe the fast service could also stop at Wateringbury and/or Yalding? They're medium-sized villages and would appreciate 2tph to Tonbridge and Maidstone.

Yes quite possibly, I think Beltring can manage on 1tph being pretty much in the middle of nowhere.

 

[evergreenadam]

What's the rationale for one of the Maidstones going to Charing Cross, incidentally?

If they want simpler timetables, surely you'd get that with an even-interval (at the London end) 30-min service from Victoria (only), one train calling at all stations on the line (after the Sevenoaks diverges) to Maidstone East and the other to Ashford skipping some of the smaller stations. Would also, I guess, fix the Bromley gaps.

They only came up with that idea in 1982!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==



Another interesting thing about this line is that much more recently than that, there were peak-only through London services at both ends. The through services at the Strood end continued perhaps into the 90s(?) though at the Paddock Wood end they were present in 1982 but had gone by 1986.

For example in 1982 there was a 1720 and a 1740 from Charing Cross to Ashford/Maidstone (the former 6Hap/4EPB, and the latter 4Vep/4Cep/4EPB - in both cases the EPB going to Maidstone).

I think it’s worth trialling Charing Cross via London Bridge from the Maidstone line off-peak. It gives access to a wider range of entertainment and tourist attractions and tube connections, particularly into the Jubilee line than are available at Victoria. The focus of activity in London at weekends has changed in the last decade and it’s right that the rail services catering for people from out of town should reflect that, for example the City fringe and South Bank is busier whilst Oxford Street is much less busy.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I've just been glancing through the new timetables. Looks like very significant service reductions compared to pre-Covid (although maybe not as compared to the 'temporary' Covid timetable).

Things that stand out for me include, on the bad side (I'm comparing with pre-Covid):

• Woolwich line down to 6tph Mon-Fri off-peak, but trains are not evenly spaced and there are two 20 minute gaps per hour at all stations Eastbound (16 minute gaps Westbound rising to 23 minute gaps on the Westcombe Park-Deptford section). That is really rubbish compared to what the service used to be and doesn't seem at all appropriate for the population levels. It's OK for people at Abbey Wood and Woolwich Arsenal who now have Elizabeth line alternatives, but that's no good for all the other stations.
• Faversham-Canterbury-Dover down to hourly
• It looks like the half-hourly London-Tunbridge Wells trains have been (permanently?) scrapped, which means Tonbridge Wells down to half-hourly and London-Sevenoaks-Tonbridge down to 4 trains an hour.

On the good side:

• Most/all services Gravesend-Dartford-London are now routed via Abbey Wood for Elizabeth Line connections.
• Bromley North down to half-hourly - but it means the trains all make good connections with London services.
• There do seem to be fewer conflicting moves at Lewisham. Maybe that'll help reliability?

(I appreciate some of these are what had happened anyway during Covid, but it does seem bad that those are temporary changes that now look to have become permanent)

 

[BJames]

I've just been glancing through the new timetables. Looks like very significant service reductions compared to pre-Covid (although maybe not as compared to the 'temporary' Covid timetable).

Things that stand out for me include, on the bad side (I'm comparing with pre-Covid):

• Woolwich line down to 6tph Mon-Fri off-peak, but trains are not evenly spaced and there are two 20 minute gaps per hour at all stations Eastbound (16 minute gaps Westbound rising to 23 minute gaps on the Westcombe Park-Deptford section). That is really rubbish compared to what the service used to be and doesn't seem at all appropriate for the population levels. It's OK for people at Abbey Wood and Woolwich Arsenal who now have Elizabeth line alternatives, but that's no good for all the other stations.
• Faversham-Canterbury-Dover down to hourly
• It looks like the half-hourly London-Tunbridge Wells trains have been (permanently?) scrapped, which means Tonbridge Wells down to half-hourly and London-Sevenoaks-Tonbridge down to 4 trains an hour.

On the good side:

• Most/all services Gravesend-Dartford-London are now routed via Abbey Wood for Elizabeth Line connections.
• Bromley North down to half-hourly - but it means the trains all make good connections with London services.
• There do seem to be fewer conflicting moves at Lewisham. Maybe that'll help reliability?

(I appreciate some of these are what had happened anyway during Covid, but it does seem bad that those are temporary changes that now look to have become permanent)

Bold bit - I don't think so, they were only at busy times of the day (i.e. I guess peaks and shoulder peaks) and Saturday mornings before and it looks set to stay that way.

At other busy times on Monday to Friday and in the morning on Saturday some additional trains will run between Tunbridge Wells and London Charing Cross calling at High Brooms, Tonbridge, Hildenborough, Sevenoaks, Orpington, London Bridge, London Waterloo East and London Charing Cross.

​

 

[infobleep]

Yes it was announced in this press release about there 2022/23 business plan

https://www.southwesternrailway.com...h-western-railway-sets-out-key-business-plans



Be good if other operators published their business plans as well

I appreciate this is an older post but now the timetable has been uploaded, does anyone know what these targeted interventions are?

Also if off peak travel is at 100%, does this mean some limes are over 100% and others are under this amount?

My main interest is in 2 fast trains an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction and there still isn't going to be any outside of the early morning or evening peak. There is still a 20-minute wait officially at Woking if you get the x49 Guildford to Waterloo service, which skins Clapham Junction.

I do appreciate those in the know can get a semi-fast service from Woking but only if trains are on time or both are delayed. You must be in the know or figure it out though..

 

[pompeyfan]

I appreciate this is an older post but now the timetable has been uploaded, does anyone know what these targeted interventions are?

Also if off peak travel is at 100%, does this mean some limes are over 100% and others are under this amount?

My main interest is in 2 fast trains an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction and there still isn't going to be any outside of the early morning or evening peak. There is still a 20-minute wait officially at Woking if you get the x49 Guildford to Waterloo service, which skins Clapham Junction.

I do appreciate those in the know can get a semi-fast service from Woking but only if trains are on time or both are delayed. You must be in the know or figure it out though..

Some mainline routes are still less than pre Covid, mainly Salisbury, Portsmouth and the Poole stoppers.

Clapham to Guildford remains 1 train per hour but this now terminates at Haslemere rather than Portsmouth.

Farncombe now sees 2 tph off peak in either direction.

I believe though that the majority of stations in the mainline area have returned to the same number of station calls (excluding 1P calling pattern and Basingstoke / Fleet / Farnborough)

 

[nw1]

Bold bit - I don't think so, they were only at busy times of the day (i.e. I guess peaks and shoulder peaks) and Saturday mornings before and it looks set to stay that way.

There was certainly a time when the Tunbridge Wells stopper ran all day, half-hourly, probably during the 00s and 10s. I definitely remember seeing a CWN which featured it, and noted that many trains were 10 or 12 coach even in the middle of the day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

Some mainline routes are still less than pre Covid, mainly Salisbury, Portsmouth and the Poole stoppers.

Indeed, the xx39 from Waterloo doesn't run between Waterloo and Basingstoke. I'd hope they'd be working towards a restoration of the 2004-19 timetable, once the problems with staff and stock are sorted out.

 

[D6130]

I hadn't realised that the Otterington station house and signal box museum had closed. At one time it used to be possible to visit by appointment. That Mark 2 coach was purchased by the owner and transported to the site to act as a café or exhibition space IIRC.

 

[pompeyfan]

There was certainly a time when the Tunbridge Wells stopper ran all day, half-hourly, probably during the 00s and 10s. I definitely remember seeing a CWN which featured it, and noted that many trains were 10 or 12 coach even in the middle of the day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==


Indeed, the xx39 from Waterloo doesn't run between Waterloo and Basingstoke. I'd hope they'd be working towards a restoration of the 2004-19 timetable, once the problems with staff and stock are sorted out.

Personally I think this is it now for SWR services as DfT will not allow any more services without an increase in revenue (except possibly the Salisbury stoppers).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Indeed, the xx39 from Waterloo doesn't run between Waterloo and Basingstoke. I'd hope they'd be working towards a restoration of the 2004-19 timetable, once the problems with staff and stock are sorted out.

And also the revenue returns so they can fund it….

 

[nw1]

Personally I think this is it now for SWR services as DfT will not allow any more services without an increase in revenue (except possibly the Salisbury stoppers).

Though given off-peak numbers are back to what they were (this seems to be well established) there is really no reason not to run the quoted service once the staff and stock are available (the xx39 ex Waterloo) as that is part of the off-peak service and thus, the demand presumably exists.

If the DFT are objecting to that, that is unfortunate, if not entirely unexpected from the current regime who seem to prioritise tax cuts over public services.

 

[Goldfish62]

Though given off-peak numbers are back to what they were (this seems to be well established) there is really no reason not to run the quoted service once the staff and stock are available (the xx39 ex Waterloo) as that is part of the off-peak service and thus, the demand presumably exists.

If the DFT are objecting to that, that is unfortunate, if not entirely unexpected from the current regime who seem to prioritise tax cuts over public services.

Indeed. SWR state that off-peak passenger numbers are back to 100% of pre-Covid yet off-peak service levels are not and not planned to be either from December, except for a few isolated tweakings.

One ongoing issue of course is lack of rolling stock. Unless the 701s enter service we are stuck with the current service levels on the electrified network for good.

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed. SWR state that off-peak passenger numbers are back to 100% of pre-Covid yet off-peak service levels are not and not planned to be either from December, except for a few isolated tweakings.

If the off-peak passengers fit on fewer trains, it makes complete sense not to restore off-peak frequencies whilst the peak revenues aren't available to provide cross subsidy.

 

[nw1]

If the off-peak passengers fit on fewer trains, it makes complete sense not to restore off-peak frequencies whilst the peak revenues aren't available to provide cross subsidy.

Do they fit on fewer trains though? Or are many of the off-peak services overcrowded? (Genuine question, haven't travelled M-F off-peak for a while so I don't actually know).

Also, if as many suggest the peak may not come back for a few years, are we stuck with relatively poor off-peak services for many years to come? Will this encourage modal shift to the trains, or rather will it encourage modal shift to the car? For instance, Brighton to Southampton is deeply unattractive by train right now. Such a route should really have a semi-fast regional express type service, stopping at medium-sized and larger stations only (like the Portsmouth-Cardiff) - yet as a result of the cutbacks, it stops everywhere as far as Chichester.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

One ongoing issue of course is lack of rolling stock. Unless the 701s enter service we are stuck with the current service levels on the electrified network for good.

Indeed, as I recognised in my post. Quite prepared to cut some slack while this problem (and the related problem of driver shortages) exists.