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December 2022 Timetable Changes

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Bletchleyite

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The first arrival at Lime Street being 09:04 instead of 08:04, running via Birmingham and not calling at Watford and Nuneaton's annoying though.

It's not even true:


(shows a service from Euston to Liverpool via the Trent Valley arriving 0804 and calling at Watford and Nuneaton on 20/9/22)
 
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A S Leib

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It's not even true:


(shows a service from Euston to Liverpool via the Trent Valley arriving 0804 and calling at Watford and Nuneaton on 20/9/22)
I meant after the December changes.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT

I did get it slightly wrong though; there's a 09:04 calling at Milton Keynes and Stafford, with the 09:37 arrival having come via Birmingham and calling at Watford and Rugby.
 

cle

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Exactly.

Downsides from changes guaranteed, such benefits as might arise likely to be unreliable.

Not a step forward for users of the Styal line.

Must say I do like the idea of the Southports being replaced along the Castleford corridor (thanks Bletchleyite) by Manchester Airport - Manchester Victora (and beyond?) shuttles. There's good same platform interchanges at Salford Crescent for the airport, so terminate the Southports at Victoria, or beyond if platform availability is an issue (the modelling at Victoria increasingly appears to have been VERY short-sighted - capacity is a significant constraint). A cross city shuttle along the Styal line would provide significantly improved connections, and could shift significant numbers from their cars.
Southport might be a good fit for Calder. Both diesel, northern pair/through Victoria running - 4 cars or so. Some onward journey potential (Southport/Wigan/Bolton to Bradford/Leeds)
 

Bletchleyite

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I meant after the December changes.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT

I did get it slightly wrong though; there's a 09:04 calling at Milton Keynes and Stafford, with the 09:37 arrival having come via Birmingham and calling at Watford and Rugby.

Sorry, I'm being an idiot, I don't know why I picked 20th Sept - I meant to pick 20th Dec!

You're right that the 0904 arrival is the first in the new timetable. To be honest the 0900 meeting is a bit of a myth anyway. I suspect there may well be an earlier one added when (eventually) the 2nd TPH starts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Southport might be a good fit for Calder. Both diesel, northern pair/through Victoria running - 4 cars or so. Some onward journey potential (Southport/Wigan/Bolton to Bradford/Leeds)

I should note that rebuilding Victoria to a proper quality is a prerequisite of my Manchester S-Bahn proposals (over in the other thread if you'd like to discuss those). I would be against any service I was using being diverted to the present rathole of a station which is not fit for England's second/third city (depending on your view).
 

D6130

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Southport might be a good fit for Calder. Both diesel, northern pair/through Victoria running - 4 cars or so. Some onward journey potential (Southport/Wigan/Bolton to Bradford/Leeds)
IIRC, in the infamous May 2018 timetable most of the Leeds-Manchester via Dewsbury services ran through to/from Southport....but they were cut back to Wigan a year later.
 

A S Leib

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Sorry, I'm being an idiot, I don't know why I picked 20th Sept - I meant to pick 20th Dec!

You're right that the 0904 arrival is the first in the new timetable. To be honest the 0900 meeting is a bit of a myth anyway. I suspect there may well be an earlier one added when (eventually) the 2nd TPH starts.
At least it will still be possible to get to Liverpool for 08:17 with a ten-minute change from the first Glasgow train to an ex-Birmingham one at Crewe.
 

Bletchleyite

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At least it will still be possible to get to Liverpool for 08:17 with a ten-minute change from the first Glasgow train to an ex-Birmingham one at Crewe.

And the last train from Euston is nearly an hour later (2200 vs 2107) which is probably going to be a lot more useful for a larger number of people. The number of people needing to leave London well before 0600 and arrive in Liverpool by 0900 is going to be very limited indeed. The 0900 meetings people shout about are largely a myth - most of the time even an all day workshop or training course will start at 1000 on the first day to allow the organiser to get in at 0900 and prepare the room etc.
 

Verulamius

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For St Albans in the morning commute to London there are some changes.

Instead of the 07:18 & 7:48 additional fast trains, we have the 07:03, 07:33 & 8:03.

There is also an additional 07:45 semi fast.
 

Turbo004

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I was sure that there was a plan to introduce hourly Middlesborough - London Kings Cross services in December 2022. Has this been deferred?
 

swt_passenger

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I was sure that there was a plan to introduce hourly Middlesborough - London Kings Cross services in December 2022. Has this been deferred?
It’s only ever been intended to be 2 hourly, that’s going back to the 2016 access consultation. I think in the last consultation for the expected May 2022 timetable, (that was deferred) the actual Middlesborough service was still once each day each way, it was already showing as deferred until mid 2020s.

It’s the service needed to achieve the maximum uplift to 6.5 tph at Kings Cross.
 

xtradj

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Does anyone know why the 21:54 and 22:54 TPE from Liverpool starting Dec 2022 only go as far as Huddersfield and not Leeds/York?.

Engineering work? If so are they timed to carry further in the future or always just Huddersfield?

Makes the last Leeds/York 21:06 if so which is significantly earlier than pre covid
 

Halish Railway

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Does anyone know why the 21:54 and 22:54 TPE from Liverpool starting Dec 2022 only go as far as Huddersfield and not Leeds/York?.

Engineering work? If so are they timed to carry further in the future or always just Huddersfield?
The units that operate both services finish their diagram at Ardwick TMD, a move that’s necessary to balance units out, meaning that there are enough units to start their diagram at Ardwick, with their first passenger working being from Manchester Airport, Piccadilly or Liverpool Lime Street.

It is a bit poor that the last direct Liverpool to Leeds train is at 21:06. If Leeds United play at Anfield or Goodison Park in a 19:45 or 20:00 kickoff then getting back to Leeds might be a bit difficult.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is a bit poor that the last direct Liverpool to Leeds train is at 21:06. If Leeds United play at Anfield or Goodison Park in a 19:45 or 20:00 kickoff then getting back to Leeds might be a bit difficult.

Were we serious about getting people to give up cars, last departures on main intercity routes would need to be closer to 2300, ideally slightly later. But at the moment it's about saving money, unfortunately.
 

dk1

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I was sure that there was a plan to introduce hourly Middlesborough - London Kings Cross services in December 2022. Has this been deferred?
No it’s only half that. September MR magazine implies any deferred changes to 2023 may not happen then now either even though LNER has been one of the fastest to return passenger numbers. Shame but that’s the trouble when the DfT have too much influence.
 

Fokx

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Does anyone know why the 21:54 and 22:54 TPE from Liverpool starting Dec 2022 only go as far as Huddersfield and not Leeds/York?.

Because they form the last few stopping services from Huddersfield towards Manchester with Piccadilly crew then return to Ardwick depot

They’re formed from Hull services so wouldn’t operate to York anyway, and Leeds is simply a connection at MCV (albeit on northern)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It is a bit poor that the last direct Liverpool to Leeds train is at 21:06. If Leeds United play at Anfield or Goodison Park in a 19:45 or 20:00 kickoff then getting back to Leeds might be a bit difficult.

It’s still possible with the overnight trains, but you’d arrive closer to 2am if you set off at 11pm
 

Peter0124

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Will there ever be demand to extend the 1P07 20.33 London Euston to Preston up north to Glasgow? Would be a roughly 1am arrival though. IIRC it has been extended once the whole length as a one off for like one or two days, same for the 18.43 via Birmingham.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Will there ever be demand to extend the 1P07 20.33 London Euston to Preston up north to Glasgow? Would be a roughly 1am arrival though. IIRC it has been extended once the whole length as a one off for like one or two days, same for the 18.43 via Birmingham.
I have always questioned why it wasn’t possible to get a 20:30 to Scotland, even if it was a ‘Stopper’ to Preston and then even non-stop to Scotland.
 

43055

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May be use to some. I have gone through RTT and produced the new Avanti Timetable in excel as a full timetable and by route. Currently weekday only but may add Saturdays and Sundays in the future.
 

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Nicholas Lewis

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No it’s only half that. September MR magazine implies any deferred changes to 2023 may not happen then now either even though LNER has been one of the fastest to return passenger numbers. Shame but that’s the trouble when the DfT have too much influence.
What was the point of spending £1.2B on upgrades to facilitate an improved service that the DfT like to brag about.
 

dk1

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IMHO, Alan Williams' column about the DfT in this month's 'Modern Railways' is essential reading for anyone with an interest in these matters.
I’ve not got to the back pages yet. I bet there’s a moan about TPE or the lack of Whitby services in there somewhere lol.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What was the point of spending £1.2B on upgrades to facilitate an improved service that the DfT like to brag about.
Exactly.
 
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D6130

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I’ve not got to the back pages yet. I bet there’s a moan about TPE or the lack of Whitby services in there somewhere lol.
No....there are nearly three pages all about the shortcomings of the DfT - going back quite a few years!
 

CyrusWuff

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A quick glance shows that, despite weekly complaints of dangerous overcrowding and people fainting, Chiltern are still only running one train per hour between London and Birmingham for most of the day at weekends. :rolleyes:

What on Earth are they/the DfT/the Treasury thinking?!?!? <(
 

4-SUB 4732

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A quick glance shows that, despite weekly complaints of dangerous overcrowding and people fainting, Chiltern are still only running one train per hour between London and Birmingham for most of the day at weekends. :rolleyes:

What on Earth are they/the DfT/the Treasury thinking?!?!? <(
The answer is they’re thinking far too much about savings on the rawest of costs (e.g. diesel and then any overtime needed) and therefore going “Well enjoy that” to the people who have to use the service.
 

sammyg901

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A quick glance shows that, despite weekly complaints of dangerous overcrowding and people fainting, Chiltern are still only running one train per hour between London and Birmingham for most of the day at weekends. :rolleyes:

What on Earth are they/the DfT/the Treasury thinking?!?!? <(

A situation exacerbated by the Oxfords remaining as slow/stopper services so some Bicester passengers have switched back to the Birmingham services at Bicester North and other intermediate stations may get a faster service on these trains too

Personally I've switched to Aylesbury Vale Parkway, I never trust Bicester North to get a seat and I live between the two so no point in paying the premium to park/for a ticket from Bicester Village to save a few minutes driving
 

mcnw35282

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Has the direct Liverpool Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service been binned in Dec change? Can't seem to find it anywhere.

1 train per hour between LIV and SHJ is a joke!
 

Fokx

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Has the direct Liverpool Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service been binned in Dec change? Can't seem to find it anywhere.

1 train per hour between LIV and SHJ is a joke!

Yes it’s not returning (atleast in December)
 
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