December 2022 Timetable Changes

[philosopher]

A quick glance shows that, despite weekly complaints of dangerous overcrowding and people fainting, Chiltern are still only running one train per hour between London and Birmingham for most of the day at weekends.

What on Earth are they/the DfT/the Treasury thinking?!?!?

Chiltern’s London to Birmingham timetable to me really makes little sense, particularly on weekends. As you say they are mostly only one train an hour, but with a second train inserted in seemingly random hours. For example northbound on Saturday, there is a second hourly train at 12:37, but none at say 09:37 when I would have thought demand would be greater. This also occurs on weekdays to, with some hours only have one train an hour and / or having trains with a lot more stops than in other hours.

If Chiltern are going to remain at reduced frequencies, then I think there is a good need for a large scale rewrite of this timetable to create a more consistent stopping pattern and trains per hour.

 

[mcnw35282]

Yes it’s not returning (atleast in December)

yay! More crush-loaded trains for the foreseeable future! Cheers Northern!

 

[barbette165]

If Chiltern are going to remain at reduced frequencies, then I think there is a good need for a large scale rewrite of this timetable to create a more consistent stopping pattern and trains per hour.

The timetable will need a re-write when West Midlands Trains do a re-write of the Snow Hill lines to achieve an even 4 trains per hour timetable, which is reportedly planned for next May. As well as fitting in with the WMR services to Kidderminster, there is the single track section between Hatton and Bearley junction todeal with.

 

[800001]

No it’s only half that. September MR magazine implies any deferred changes to 2023 may not happen then now either even though LNER has been one of the fastest to return passenger numbers. Shame but that’s the trouble when the DfT have too much influence.

LNER Must still be planning on increases services, as they are advertising internally for new trains fleet introduction manager, and they are still tendering for new trains.

 

[dk1]

LNER Must still be planning on increases services, as they are advertising internally for new trains fleet introduction manager, and they are still tendering for new trains.

Oh yes, it’s just a case of in what year it actually happens.

 

[Watershed]

LNER Must still be planning on increases services, as they are advertising internally for new trains fleet introduction manager, and they are still tendering for new trains.

The old adage about signalboxes being repainted just before they're closed comes to mind...

 

[The Planner]

The timetable will need a re-write when West Midlands Trains do a re-write of the Snow Hill lines to achieve an even 4 trains per hour timetable, which is reportedly planned for next May. As well as fitting in with the WMR services to Kidderminster, there is the single track section between Hatton and Bearley junction todeal with.

The whole route isnt going to get re-written for May 23, that is too big a job. Hatton Bearley is an afterthought in the grand scheme of things.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The whole route isnt going to get re-written for May 23, that is too big a job. Hatton Bearley is an afterthought in the grand scheme of things.

Quite...and the consultation for Chiltern's new Track Access Contract (due to start with the May 2023 timetable change and run until May 2026) is essentially a rollover of the current timetable initially.

 

[Class 170101]

I was sure that there was a plan to introduce hourly Middlesborough - London Kings Cross services in December 2022. Has this been deferred?

It’s only ever been intended to be 2 hourly, that’s going back to the 2016 access consultation. I think in the last consultation for the expected May 2022 timetable, (that was deferred) the actual Middlesborough service was still once each day each way, it was already showing as deferred until mid 2020s.

It’s the service needed to achieve the maximum uplift to 6.5 tph at Kings Cross.

To be honest I don't understand why they just don't extend the York terminators if its that important. The East Coast timetable won't happen in May 2023 and frankly if the Treasury and the treacherous Grant Shapps are involved then I cannot see it being any time soon after that.

 

[greyman42]

To be honest I don't understand why they just don't extend the York terminators if its that important.

The York terminators, at present, only have around a 30 minute turnaround at York.

 

[800001]

To be honest I don't understand why they just don't extend the York terminators if its that important. The East Coast timetable won't happen in May 2023 and frankly if the Treasury and the treacherous Grant Shapps are involved then I cannot see it being any time soon after that.

Because you would need more sets to do so, hence why a new build is under procurement!

 

[bramling]

To be honest I don't understand why they just don't extend the York terminators if its that important. The East Coast timetable won't happen in May 2023 and frankly if the Treasury and the treacherous Grant Shapps are involved then I cannot see it being any time soon after that.

Can 9-car trains run to Middlesbrough? Whilst the York trains are rarely, in my experience, heavily crowded, it would be a downhill step if they had to be stuck with 5-cars, especially as LNER is already seeing 5-cars pop up on other services which historically have been full-length, including now some diagrammed as such.

 

[800001]

Can 9-car trains run to Middlesbrough? Whilst the York trains are rarely, in my experience, heavily crowded, it would be a downhill step if they had to be stuck with 5-cars, especially as LNER is already seeing 5-cars pop up on other services which historically have been full-length, including now some diagrammed as such.

They can take 9 and 10 car. That’s why the 5 car stops all way down platform at Boro, as board is there for all length.

At shell junction where the ecs moves reverse, they also have 5 and 9/10 car stop boards.

The plan was/is for 9 cars to be used on them, but until such time they have more stock, 5 cars will remain.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can 9-car trains run to Middlesbrough? Whilst the York trains are rarely, in my experience, heavily crowded, it would be a downhill step if they had to be stuck with 5-cars, especially as LNER is already seeing 5-cars pop up on other services which historically have been full-length, including now some diagrammed as such.

I’d rather they were five car than an Edinburgh be five car as a result of using the nine car on Middlesbrough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2022 ==

As planned, RealTime Trains suggests all Birmingham fasts and all Birmingham semis operated by Avanti are to be completely Pendolino and completely Voyager operated respectively. This will mark the end of the farsical London Scotland services operated by diesel trains.

 

[Peter0124]

As planned, RealTime Trains suggests all Birmingham fasts and all Birmingham semis operated by Avanti are to be completely Pendolino and completely Voyager operated respectively. This will mark the end of the farsical London Scotland services operated by diesel trains.

There's still one voyager diagram being sent up to Glasgow: the 13.43 ex EUS.

 

[Falcon1200]

May be use to some. I have gone through RTT and produced the new Avanti Timetable in excel as a full timetable and by route.

Very useful indeed, many thanks for producing and posting.

 

[Class 170101]

The York terminators, at present, only have around a 30 minute turnaround at York.

Because you would need more sets to do so, hence why a new build is under procurement!

I completely understand it would need more sets BUT the 6.5 LNER tph service needs more sets than that. Given the DfT /Tresury wants to spend less on railways it would make more sense to focus on the existing 5tph and extend services where you can rather than have to create a new path on the ECML as well all the way to Kings Cross especially on the congested sections which may ot may not have enough infrastructure desspite the planned (and completed) upgrades.

 

[800001]

I completely understand it would need more sets BUT the 6.5 LNER tph service needs more sets than that. Given the DfT /Tresury wants to spend less on railways it would make more sense to focus on the existing 5tph and extend services where you can rather than have to create a new path on the ECML as well all the way to Kings Cross especially on the congested sections which may ot may not have enough infrastructure desspite the planned (and completed) upgrades.

To do the Middlesbrough extensions you need bimode sets, sets they do not have, they need this additional order.

On one hand Dft want cuts, yet LNER is still allowed to progress with new fleet order, also to recruit for implementation managers, so Dft must be happy for LNER to progress.

 

[TheBigD]

To do the Middlesbrough extensions you need bimode sets, sets they do not have, they need this additional order.

On one hand Dft want cuts, yet LNER is still allowed to progress with new fleet order, also to recruit for implementation managers, so Dft must be happy for LNER to progress.

The (deferred) May 2022 timetable would have needed 15 bimode sets to do Inverness/Aberdeen/Harrogate/Lincoln/Middlesbrough/Hull services.

The Inverness/Aberdeens needed 7.
The Harrogates needed 4
The Lincolns needed 3
The Middlesbrough needed 1, though if the 2 hourly York services was extended to Middlesbrough as planned, it would have needed 4 (May 2022 was 1 up service 0735, 1 down sevice 1845.

The Azuma fleet provides for 10 (from 13) 9 car sets and 8 (from 10) 5 car sets, 18 sets in total.

Current procurement exercise seeks up to 10 additional bimode trains.
Modern Railways reported that Hitachi, CAF, and a Chinese company had expressed interest, though you'd probably put your money on Hitachi.

As posted in the speculative section, it seems that everything is pretty much in limbo regarded the new ECML timetable and extra trains etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

As planned, RealTime Trains suggests all Birmingham fasts and all Birmingham semis operated by Avanti are to be completely Pendolino and completely Voyager operated respectively. This will mark the end of the farsical London Scotland services operated by diesel trains.

The fasts are Pendolino. The semi fasts are timed for 80x. Clearly they won’t be available for Dec 22, but a Pendolino or voyager will comfortably keep to 80x timings.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The fasts are Pendolino. The semi fasts are timed for 80x. Clearly they won’t be available for Dec 22, but a Pendolino or voyager will comfortably keep to 80x timings.

Yes exactly. So it’s all as planned, other than a Voyager substituting for a Pendolino on the 1343 EUS GLC in the short term.

 

[Chiltern006]

is the second liv train happening in december?

 

[dk1]

is the second liv train happening in december?

Certainly not if you are referring to Avanti. Months & months of Hitachi testing to go yet & thats after they even accept one whenever that maybe. I don’t hold out much hope for December 2023.

 

[TheBigD]

is the second liv train happening in december?

No. Hourly at xx43 from Euston with a single extra at 1907.

 

[800001]

Certainly not if you are referring to Avanti. Months & months of Hitachi testing to go yet & thats after they even accept one whenever that maybe. I don’t hold out much hope for December 2023.

They don’t even start full testing until end of September/early October at the earliest at Old Dalby. Then all the route testing on wcml and driver training etc.
I would say mid 2024 at earliest.

 

[43096]

And this is where the EU requirements for tendering make no sense at all. LNER need more Hitachi units, not a microfleet, least of all a "cheap as ****" one with a terrible ride and poor reliability.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they go to Hitachi you get trains “expensive as ****” with a terrible ride and poor reliability.

 

[Some guy]

I’d rather they were five car than an Edinburgh be five car as a result of using the nine car on Middlesbrough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2022 ==

As planned, RealTime Trains suggests all Birmingham fasts and all Birmingham semis operated by Avanti are to be completely Pendolino and completely Voyager operated respectively. This will mark the end of the farsical London Scotland services operated by diesel trains.

The 13:43 is still going to Glasgow as a voyager and will form the 20:06 to Crewe but it does mean Edinburgh Avanti crew will not sign them anymore and they also won’t be stored at polmadie overnight

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 13:43 is still going to Glasgow as a voyager and will form the 20:06 to Crewe

Presumably so Preston crews don't all completely lose the traction from their knowledge?

I don't, unlike @TT-ONR-NRN, think running under the wires Euston-Brum makes any more or less sense than running under the wires Euston-Glasgow. It's still all under the wires. But the reason for the change does make sense. (I do however hope they aren't just going to run 5 car sets on those, as they will get overcrowded).

 

[Some guy]

Presumably so Preston crews don't all completely lose the traction from their knowledge?

I don't, unlike @TT-ONR-NRN, think running under the wires Euston-Brum makes any more or less sense than running under the wires Euston-Glasgow. It's still all under the wires. But the reason for the change does make sense. (I do however hope they aren't just going to run 5 car sets on those, as they will get overcrowded).

Preston would still sign them anyway preston drivers and train managers sign voyagers from Crewe to Chester as a diversion route to Warrington. It would most likely be for Glasgow depot so they can still sign them if there’s a shortage of problem with a pendo they can still set swap

They’re highly likely going to be 10 car units as you say it’s going to be well overcrowded

 

[louis97]

The Avanti fast Birmingham times seem rather ambitious to me. I know they’re going to now run non-stop to Coventry, but it looks like some significant decreases in journey time for just one stop being removed.

Nothing ambitious about the running times, trains use said timings in the current timetable hour after hour, just not with that particular stopping pattern.