December 2022 Timetable Changes

[CJ]

It's great to see Gatley going from 2 to three tph off peak in each direction.
Although bunching of services continues, such that each hour there is a 36 minute gap between services northbound, and a 32 minute gap southbound.
It's also disappoining that Gatley is losing its direct trains to the north-east. The hourly train to Teeside provided direct services to York, Leeds, Huddersfield and other W Yorks towns - and also to Manchester Victoria. Its replacement by a hourly direct service to Barrow / Windermere, is nowhere near as useful.

The North East services haven't completely disappeared from Gatley. It appears they will still call at Gatley on Sundays only in the usual time slot expected.

I agree, this North East service has/was very useful, not only for direct connections to Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria, but also to (West) Yorkshire.

I've used this service to travel to York for a few days and was great to not have to change connections. Boarding at Gatley meant I was able to find a seat much easier before arriving into Manchester.

 

[dk1]

It does seem odd. I'd guess maybe a pair of 158's, spliting at Exeter to send one to Penzance and the other to Barnstaple. If that didn't happen then i'd question why it doesn't just go back up to Barnstaple from Axminister rather than be sent to Penzance.

I suppose it's just operational convenience.

 

[Watershed]

The North East services haven't completely disappeared from Gatley. It appears they will still call at Gatley on Sundays only in the usual time slot expected.

I agree, this North East service has/was very useful, not only for direct connections to Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria, but also to (West) Yorkshire.

I've used this service to travel to York for a few days and was great to not have to change connections. Boarding at Gatley meant I was able to find a seat much easier before arriving into Manchester.

Let's be real here - the call was never to provide direct connectivity between Gatley and Leeds/the North East.

There is probably more of a justification for providing a direct service from the Styal line stations to Manchester Victoria, given the options this opens up. But unfortunately the calling pattern between Manchester Airport and Piccadilly remains suboptimal, with plenty of trains having wodges of pathing instead of stopping where they could.

 

[CJ]

Let's be real here - the call was never to provide direct connectivity between Gatley and Leeds/the North East.

Yes of course, I would imagine the reason why we have such a service is down to the stop-start timetable nature that the Styal line currently faces (after the 2018 timetable change), and TPE would have had to have waited at Gatley for the path/signalling to be available to proceed, and decided to make it an official calling stop anyway.

We can see with the December 2022 change that they aim to rectify this with the Styal line going back to having a regular 30-min clock facing frequency (in addition to the Barrow/Windermere call for Gatley).

Nevertheless, it has still been a useful service and would be a shame for a station on the Styal line to lose a connection not just to Yorkshire, but to Victoria as well.

There is probably more of a justification for providing a direct service from the Styal line stations to Manchester Victoria, given the options this opens up. But unfortunately the calling pattern between Manchester Airport and Piccadilly remains suboptimal, with plenty of trains having wodges of pathing instead of stopping where they could.

I'm sure there was ambition from the previous Northern franchise of a Bradford - Manchester Victoria - Manchester Airport service, which could/would have likely stopped at stations on the Styal line, but such a service now appears to no longer be happening due to the Castlefield corridor congestion.

 

[Class 170101]

Another loser to an extent is Blackpool unless anything changes. In the down direction through trains leave Euston 07:40 & 11:40 via Birmingham & a new 17:07 first stop Crewe via the TV reaches the resort in 2h53. Unfortunately up road it’s rather poor with just two services, both via Brum, departing at 11:51 & 15:51.

An 05:30 Blackpool to Crewe attaching to a Holyhead to Euston service at Crewe, as I believe it does today.

 

[Some guy]

An 05:30 Blackpool to Crewe attaching to a Holyhead to Euston service at Crewe, as I believe it does today.

Yep that’s penned in to return. It will be interesting to know if it will be changed to an 805 when the voyagers are phased out. Also on a Sunday there’s a Blackpool service from Euston the 18:01 service goes to Holyhead and Blackpool and splits at Crewe

 

[dk1]

An 05:30 Blackpool to Crewe attaching to a Holyhead to Euston service at Crewe, as I believe it does today.

Of course yes. Didn’t pick that up as an attachment Doh!! Thanks.

 

[CAF397]

Could some please point me to that site that creates Working Timetables? It's not the official Network Rail site, just one that someone puts pdfs on, but pulls data from the current system.

 

[Kite159]

All down to pathing. The Cumbria will be at Gatley when the North Wales right in front will be stopped at East Didsbury. It would pretty much stop at Gatley regardless of if it was booked or not, as it’s caught up the TFW service.

The Airport line is going back to (almost) as it was Pre May 2018 timetable collapse, with 2 stopping trains per hour which gives a lot more reliability for commuters on that line, rather than trains coming from here there and everywhere running late and skipping stops. 2 stoppers and everything else either express or the odd stop is a much better way of doing things and I think the Airport line massively benefits now from this.

Agreed, easier for those passengers who are travelling between the stops, rather than heading to Piccadilly/Airport.

Hopefully it will work, unless Northern decide to rip out all the stops on the stopper from Liverpool due to late running with a tight turnaround at the Airport.

 

[Mathew S]

Could some please point me to that site that creates Working Timetables? It's not the official Network Rail site, just one that someone puts pdfs on, but pulls data from the current system.

http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/ might be what you're looking for?

 

[Watershed]

Agreed, easier for those passengers who are travelling between the stops, rather than heading to Piccadilly/Airport.

Hopefully it will work, unless Northern decide to rip out all the stops on the stopper from Liverpool due to late running with a tight turnaround at the Airport.

Indeed - 7 minute turnround at the Airport and 8 minutes at Lime Street. With just 2 mins engineering allowance in the schedule, almost all the dwells being 0.5 minute, and it being timed for a 331, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being turned short at Oxford Road half the time.

And of course when a 319 inevitably turns up, it will lose even more time.

All that and yet the end result is a stopping service that isn't even clockface half-hourly - it's 25/35 mins apart. Rather disappointing, all things said.

 

[Peter0124]

Is the Dec Avanti timetable the WCML rewrite one?

 

[Huntergreed]

Is the Dec Avanti timetable the WCML rewrite one?

It is yes, new calling patterns and new hourly timings off Euston. The main changes are differed calling patterns on Trent Valley services, the Birmingham shakeup (2 x expresses and 1 x semi-fast per hour) and the return of the Glasgow via Birmingham 9M's)

 

[Kite159]

Indeed - 7 minute turnround at the Airport and 8 minutes at Lime Street. With just 2 mins engineering allowance in the schedule, almost all the dwells being 0.5 minute, and it being timed for a 331, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being turned short at Oxford Road half the time.

And of course when a 319 inevitably turns up, it will lose even more time.

All that and yet the end result is a stopping service that isn't even clockface half-hourly - it's 25/35 mins apart. Rather disappointing, all things said.

Especially if the train is busy, ie big event on in Liverpool when TPE have their usual meltdown

25/35 minutes is better than 5/55 like some stations which have 2tph 'enjoy '

 

[splashoutradio]

Could some please point me to that site that creates Working Timetables? It's not the official Network Rail site, just one that someone puts pdfs on, but pulls data from the current system.

http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/ might be what you're looking for?

Should this be the site you're referring to, the first drafts of the December timetables will be online this Sunday. Always prefer to hold off a week or so after the initial data is released, to make sure it's as accurate as early data can be.

 

[Roger B]

Indeed - 7 minute turnround at the Airport and 8 minutes at Lime Street. With just 2 mins engineering allowance in the schedule, almost all the dwells being 0.5 minute, and it being timed for a 331, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being turned short at Oxford Road half the time.

And of course when a 319 inevitably turns up, it will lose even more time.

All that and yet the end result is a stopping service that isn't even clockface half-hourly - it's 25/35 mins apart. Rather disappointing, all things said.

Exactly.

Downsides from changes guaranteed, such benefits as might arise likely to be unreliable.

Not a step forward for users of the Styal line.

Must say I do like the idea of the Southports being replaced along the Castleford corridor (thanks Bletchleyite) by Manchester Airport - Manchester Victora (and beyond?) shuttles. There's good same platform interchanges at Salford Crescent for the airport, so terminate the Southports at Victoria, or beyond if platform availability is an issue (the modelling at Victoria increasingly appears to have been VERY short-sighted - capacity is a significant constraint). A cross city shuttle along the Styal line would provide significantly improved connections, and could shift significant numbers from their cars.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 07:45 from Buxton to Manchester is back - a good sign.

 

[sjm77]

Although Northern did run a few route learning trains, it always seemed unlikely and I seem to recall reading that they eventually gave up the paths to TransPantomime.
In one of the many timetables that TPE proposed over the last few years I did see some seasonal extra services to Scarborough from York but, of course, nothing ever came of them.

The northern service did make it into RTT becuase a debate quickly ensued on this forum about the viability of 4 or 5 minute gaps between services departing Malton's single platform in opposite directions. Combined with tight turnarounds on TPEx at Scarborough it was never going to work as hoped!

 

[virgintrain1]

Very annoying the northbound Class 9 AWCs leave BHM earlier. Going to either break or make very tight the connection from the south west XC. I can tell you there is a big market that connects for that service. (Ofden about 30+ people a service). Just seems another step back to make people choose the car. Given we used the have direct trains pre 2008 having rubbish connections both north and south now feel like a real kick in the teeth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very annoying the northbound Class 9 AWCs leave BHM earlier. Going to either break or make very tight the connection from the south west XC. I can tell you there is a big market that connects for that service. (Ofden about 30+ people a service). Just seems another step back to make people choose the car. Given we used the have direct trains pre 2008 having rubbish connections both north and south now feel like a real kick in the teeth.

Do we know where they are connecting to? That is, is continuing on that train to Scotland or connect at Newcastle viable?

 

[virgintrain1]

Do we know where they are connecting to? That is, is continuing on that train to Scotland or connect at Newcastle viable?

Generally a mix of Preston and stations in-between and up to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[The Planner]

Very annoying the northbound Class 9 AWCs leave BHM earlier. Going to either break or make very tight the connection from the south west XC. I can tell you there is a big market that connects for that service. (Ofden about 30+ people a service). Just seems another step back to make people choose the car. Given we used the have direct trains pre 2008 having rubbish connections both north and south now feel like a real kick in the teeth.

It breaks it, makes it a 9 minute connection. However, it makes the connection time out of the Bournemouth better as that arrives xx.51 with the Edinburgh at xx.07 vs xx.49 and xx.15 today. The biggest concern XC have is that the Bournemouth Manchester connects into the SW-NE in my experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It breaks it, makes it a 9 minute connection.

They'll probably like that, then, because a 9 minute connection at New St is perfectly doable, so people will continue to buy walk-up fares and do it anyway, but won't be able to get Advances (split or otherwise unless they want to risk losing their money) nor claim Delay Repay unless the delay is in excess of 1h 15mins.

On the other hand, the Westcountry to Preston/Lancaster/Oxenholme/Penrith/Carlisle (for Glasgow probably best continuing on the NW-SE train to Edinburgh, or if it doesn't go there changing at Newcastle onto a far more frequent LNER) is one of those journeys that's heading into "so long it's basically an all-day trip", so a 1h10 wait at New St to pop upstairs for a leisurely lunch in the food court may not be that bad a thing to some.

 

[DaveHarries]

Very annoying the northbound Class 9 AWCs leave BHM earlier. Going to either break or make very tight the connection from the south west XC. I can tell you there is a big market that connects for that service. (Ofden about 30+ people a service). Just seems another step back to make people choose the car. Given we used the have direct trains pre 2008 having rubbish connections both north and south now feel like a real kick in the teeth.

I never used that connection but I remember pre-COVID that a lot of people would get off the XC from Bristol when it got to Birmingham NS and aim for the AWC Class 9.

Dave

 

[HST43257]

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered, but is there a reason for the London to Scotland via Birmingham service being one of the Coventry nonstops rather than the stopper? I got the impression that a decent number of people used it previously as a Milton Keynes to WCML North direct service

 

[craigybagel]

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered, but is there a reason for the London to Scotland via Birmingham service being one of the Coventry nonstops rather than the stopper? I got the impression that a decent number of people used it previously as a Milton Keynes to WCML North direct service

The stopper is planned to eventually be worked by 807s, which won't be going to Scotland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered, but is there a reason for the London to Scotland via Birmingham service being one of the Coventry nonstops rather than the stopper? I got the impression that a decent number of people used it previously as a Milton Keynes to WCML North direct service

This is a loss for MK, but it was quicker to change at Crewe from the following xx40 so many did that as well, so it's not that much of a loss. i think the overall outcome for MK of the changes is an improvement, with e.g. the Avanti Euston service better spaced and a direct Liverpool. Bletchley gets a huge improvement with half hourly fasts all day, though I guess that reflects the fact that with the opening of EWR its importance will increase.

 

[Watershed]

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered, but is there a reason for the London to Scotland via Birmingham service being one of the Coventry nonstops rather than the stopper? I got the impression that a decent number of people used it previously as a Milton Keynes to WCML North direct service

Essentially it's because the Birmingham "semifasts" will in due course be operated by the 807s - whose improved acceleration compensates for the lower permissible speed in some areas. However, there aren't anywhere near enough of them to operate the Scotland services, and in any event the Scottish depots won't be trained on them.

Milton Keynes does lose out on this front - but gains calls in the Liverpool and Manchester services, which does sort of compensate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Essentially it's because the Birmingham "semifasts" will in due course be operated by the 807s - whose improved acceleration compensates for the lower permissible speed in some areas. However, there aren't anywhere near enough of them to operate the Scotland services, and in any event the Scottish depots won't be trained on them.

Milton Keynes does lose out on this front - but gains calls in the Liverpool and Manchester services, which does sort of compensate.

MKC has always had a Manchester call and isn't gaining a second, but the Liverpool is a definite improvement over a Chester. Also the Avantis to/from London won't be clustered, they're better spread time-wise so it's a more useful service of six reasonably spaced fast trains from Euston to MKC an hour, three Avanti and three LNR. At present (if the full timetable was running) Avanti effectively only offer an hourly southbound service as all three are within a 10 minute period.

 

[A S Leib]

MKC has always had a Manchester call and isn't gaining a second, but the Liverpool is a definite improvement over a Chester. Also the Avantis to/from London won't be clustered, they're better spread time-wise so it's a more useful service of six reasonably spaced fast trains from Euston to MKC an hour, three Avanti and three LNR. At present (if the full timetable was running) Avanti effectively only offer an hourly southbound service as all three are within a 10 minute period.

The first arrival at Lime Street being 09:04 instead of 08:04, running via Birmingham and not calling at Watford and Nuneaton's annoying though.

The longest gap between Euston departures at Hemel will be 21 minutes, but they'll arrive at Euston fifteen minutes apart so with 4 tph at varying calling patterns that's more or less as good as possible.