December 2022 Timetable Changes

[The Planner]

Has any work been done on re-signing the route south of Weaver Jn?
It will be quite tricky doing that while there is a mix of 221 and 80x running on the route.
Presumably the lower (221) EPS speed, where the splits exist, will be eliminated.
Then there's the 80x training requirement draining available Avanti resources even more.

Not yet, it won't be that horrendous with a mixture of fleets in the short term.

 

[Manutd1999]

So TPE is going to be running 4ph fast and semi-fast services on the transpennine route, down from 5ph pre-Covid:

Liverpool - Hull
Liverpool - Newcastle
Airport - Saltburn
Piccadilly - Scarborough/Newcastle (1p2h each)

The extra Victoria departure (planned to go to Newcastle) seems to have been scrapped, resulting in a 30 min gap between the 'fast' departures from Victoria to Leeds.

Any ideas if they are planning a return to 5ph? If this is sufficient for the demand, it's hardly making the case for TRU right now....

 

[blackfive460]

Poor Scarborough still stuck with half of its services shuttling to York and back.

For those of us who use the service to and from Scarborough that should be lucky Scarborough!

Since most of our services have only been running shuttles to and from York, aside from train crew availability issues we've been having the most reliable service we've had for some years. It's when services are coming from over the Pennines that we get problems with TransPantomime turning trains back short and that kind of thing.

With a choice between not having to change at York or changing at York and having a reliable service that far at least I suspect most would go for the latter!

 

[Man_with_beard]

The new pattern for Avanti see departures from Euston at...

××02 Chester
××10 Birmingham
××13 Manchester
××16 Birmingham (stopper)
××30 Glasgow
××33 Manchester
××40 Birmingham then Scotland
××43 Liverpool
××53 Manchester

Sad to see Avanti doing a stopper by emulating a LNWR service. Fantastic idea lets rip off passengers by charging them for Avanti tickets to travel on a slower LNWR style stopping service.

 

[Intro298]

Sad to see Avanti doing a stopper by emulating a LNWR service. Fantastic idea lets rip off passengers by charging them for Avanti tickets to travel on a slower LNWR style stopping service.

It‘s only 15 mins longer than the xx10 fast service. I’d hardly call it an LNWR style service when the xx23 LNWR service, will take 50 mins more than the slow Avanti service, and I imagine most people who don’t need to get off at the extra stops, will take the train which is only 6 mins before.

 

[dk1]

Sad to see Avanti doing a stopper by emulating a LNWR service. Fantastic idea lets rip off passengers by charging them for Avanti tickets to travel on a slower LNWR style stopping service.

Don’t think you can call it slow as doesn’t trawl around the Northampton loop.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Sad to see Avanti doing a stopper by emulating a LNWR service. Fantastic idea lets rip off passengers by charging them for Avanti tickets to travel on a slower LNWR style stopping service.

How can you say that? Now, Birmingham every 30 minutes will be fast to Coventry. Makes perfect sense that people can do Watford to Rugby without having to go via Northampton, etc.

 

[Goldfish62]

Waterloo to Reading runs hourly from 2020 into the later evening with the trains on the opposite side of the hour terminating at Bracknell.

That's a bit different. The evening service between Bracknell and Reading will have never been so bad, yet SWR say that off peak traffic is back to 100%.

On a positive note the 2050 and 2350 from Waterloo are reinstated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sad to see Avanti doing a stopper by emulating a LNWR service. Fantastic idea lets rip off passengers by charging them for Avanti tickets to travel on a slower LNWR style stopping service.

It isn't intended for that, it is intended for those travelling to/from stations like MKC. Though they may well offer cheaper Advances if it's quiet as a result.

Those going to/from Euston will get faster journeys.

It is a bit like the LNR Crewe service, but then if you go over to the ECML, LNER run the analogous service. So it's a bit in the middle. An InterRegio, if you like.

 

[Huntergreed]

Sad to see Avanti doing a stopper by emulating a LNWR service. Fantastic idea lets rip off passengers by charging them for Avanti tickets to travel on a slower LNWR style stopping service.

On the contrary, I think this is the correct approach to take. Encourage the (much larger) Birmingham to London market onto the express pendolino services, and then provide a dedicated service (with lower capacity, as demand will likely be lower) for markets such as Milton Keynes - Birmingham, Birmingham - Watford etc.

The new timetable is the correct approach to take in my view.

It retains the Glasgow services as the main 'express' trains to the north, with no stops south of Warrington meaning a fast, direct service from the North to London.

It repurposes the Birmingham services as outlined above, and this is a sensible move to balance the demand (why have an Edinburgh service packed with Rugby - Birmingham or Milton Keynes - Euston commuters?)

The alteration of the stopping patterns for the other services is interesting. The Stafford stop being added on the 9M trains is something that really should have been happening before anyway, so it's great to see it finally in place.

The Liverpools gaining a Milton Keynes call is a good thing in my view, as it allows for MK to gain a direct Liverpool express service, along with having Manchester and Birmingham (although they have lost the direct Scotland, the connection at Coventry is only 10 minutes, so actually they haven't lost out that much, and the more sensible way to do it is via the Trent Valley (and although the connection for this isn't great, it never has been so there's no real loss here)).

Good to see Nuneaton and Rugby getting an increased service as well, although it is sad to see Crewe lose its non-stop London trains!

Overall, the recast allows for a significantly more regular service at certain stations (Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford), makes better use of the available paths (in my view) and provides a much more balanced and sensible provision for Birmingham (albeit the stopper is not clockface with the expresses, but this really doesn't matter as the target-markets for these are completely different)

 

[TheBigD]

The changes also allow a morning peak time Multon Keynes arrival at 0815 from Birmingham (dep 0721) filling a gap that has existed since the VHF timetable was introduced.

 

[Fokx]

Any ideas if they are planning a return to 5ph? If this is sufficient for the demand, it's hardly making the case for TRU right now....

Not anytime soon due to industrial relation issues.

Do not be suprised if the 4tph becomes 3tph. The TPE timetable posted will on RTT and timetable planners will NOT be the final version.

 

[181]

It's down to the addition of a Stafford call - something which has really been overdue for years.

I think you'd find the Stafford to Preston/Glasgow/Edinburgh etc. market (plus improved connections from Penkridge, Stone, Stoke, the Trent Valley etc.) is larger than the NW-Oxford/Banbury/Leamington market

Stafford traffic more important than everywhere from Leamington to Bournemouth combined? -- I'm not convinced. (Although Leamington and Banbury passengers can use Chiltern, that involves changing stations; I don't know whether the local trains from Coventry will provide useful connections for Leamington passengers). And if passengers for the other places that you mention have to change trains anyway, I would have thought they might as well do so at Crewe.

the fact that the connections worked out well in the southbound direction was a mere coincidence. They were always poor northbound.

At risk of nitpicking, that's not actually true. It's less convenient than the cross-platform change at Wolverhampton SB for sure but only a ~20 minute change at Coventry/Birm. International/New Street.

Under the December 2022 timetable, the NB connection remains, but is made tighter - closer to 10 mins. But the SB connection becomes ~ 55 minutes.

Other people's journeys or priorities may differ, but for me the greater inconvenience of arriving in Scotland an hour later (even when my destination can be reached via either Glasgow or Edinburgh) compared to doing so in Oxford, and the arguably greater frustration if a delay happens earlier in the journey, will mean that the 10-minute northbound connection may feel uncomfortably tight.

Really what's needed is for XC to go back to the pre-Covid half hourly service on its core 'X'. Sadly that seems a very unlikely prospect in the current climate.

You can’t say they were always poor northbound or southbound when you could at least have got a half-hourly service from Reading, Oxford, Banbury and Leamington to New Street, meaning a theoretical maximum of around 29 minutes for a connection.

That we are where we are with corridors such as Nottingham - Brum, (Newcastle - York) - Sheffield - Brum, Manchester - Brum, Liverpool - Brum, Bristol - Brum and Reading - Brum all having been half-hourly meaning perfectly decent connections and slashing parts to hourly, should mean we aren’t surprised that others have to go to road because it’s not good enough anymore.

If we could restore, as we should, half-hourly on the core routes of Reading, Manchester, Liverpool, Nottingham, at least York (hourly north of), Bristol and Leicester then you would start to layer up those connections and you can rebuild that leisure market we are rightly being told is existent. Add in maximising any and all available use of units and, as we move forward, 221s off WC or 222s from EMR (or a mixture) and standardising of the fleet (including Cardiff to Nottingham) and we might actually see people using trains and them paying for themselves.

Or if a return to half-hourly isn't going to happen, then admit that and start rewriting the timetable (I realise it can't happen overnight) so that the hourly services can provide a reasonable set of through trains and/or connections for all the main flows.

 

[175001]

Does this mean passengers travelling to Hazel Grove in a much newer cleaner quieter 331 will now be travelling in shorter Class 150's?

All depends on what's on the off-peak shuttle. Could be a 331, 323 or 319.

Other than that, yes, or a 156...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Although it is great to have 3tph back for Manchester & Birmingham, it's a shame it isn't back to the old (pre-COVID) 'clockface' timetable of every 20 minutes, for instance, the xx10 and xx16 to Birmingham leaving so close.

The timetable is aspiration reality may well be something different given their current poor showing.

 

[Jez]

I've not had the chance to go through the full TfW timetable, but there are big changes on Manchester - West Wales Services.

It remains hourly from Manchester at or around xx:30. Odd hours remain as DMUs, mostly to Carmarthen. Even hours are 67 & MKIVs, all to Cardiff only bar the 1630 to Swansea. 2232 remains as a DMU to Shrewsbury that comes from the Chester route, with the loco that arrives at 2215 running ECS to Crewe instead.

To balance it out, the DMUS seem to work Manchester - Carmarthen - Cardiff - Milford Haven - Manchester, so stations West of Carmarthen only get a service east of Cardiff in one direction (though in my experience through passenger numbers are pretty negligible anyway).

Also, in a pleasant surprise, the HOWL gains a late night service. 2129 Shrewsbury to Llandrindrod, and return.

Im pleased that some West Wales to Manchester's remain as through services. However on the hours when it isnt a through service the connection times don't seem that great. I think the minimum connection time at Cardiff is at least 5 minutes. And in the down direction if passengers are connecting for Haverfordwest/Milford it could be a very long wait.

Good news about the HOWL however. It deserves a better service.

 

[GoneSouth]

For those of us who use the service to and from Scarborough that should be lucky Scarborough!

Since most of our services have only been running shuttles to and from York, aside from train crew availability issues we've been having the most reliable service we've had for some years. It's when services are coming from over the Pennines that we get problems with TransPantomime turning trains back short and that kind of thing.

With a choice between not having to change at York or changing at York and having a reliable service that far at least I suspect most would go for the latter!

Ah yes I must admit I hadn’t thought of it like that. I’d forgotten what a miserable time Scarborough was having with all those cancelled and cut short services.

When you put it in those terms i suppose most in Scarborough would be happy with a reliable service with an easy change in York. Maybe the second train per hour would be the thing to convince everyone that the service has improved. I believe there was a plan to introduce an additional northern shuttle per hour before the COVID meltdown?

 

[dk1]

Ah yes I must admit I hadn’t thought of it like that. I’d forgotten what a miserable time Scarborough was having with all those cancelled and cut short services.

When you put it in those terms i suppose most in Scarborough would be happy with a reliable service with an easy change in York. Maybe the second train per hour would be the thing to convince everyone that the service has improved. I believe there was a plan to introduce an additional northern shuttle per hour before the COVID meltdown?

Yes there was & that would have softened the blow if only it had have got started successfully.

 

[Greybeard33]

All depends on what's on the off-peak shuttle. Could be a 331, 323 or 319.

Other than that, yes, or a 156...

The platform allocations indicate that the Buxton and Hazel Grove services will interwork at Piccadilly. Therefore they are all likely to be worked by 150s.

 

[pt_mad]

It is a bit like the LNR Crewe service, but then if you go over to the ECML, LNER run the analogous service. So it's a bit in the middle. An InterRegio, if you like.

What is the analogous service?

 

[krus_aragon]

Im pleased that some West Wales to Manchester's remain as through services. However on the hours when it isnt a through service the connection times don't seem that great. I think the minimum connection time at Cardiff is at least 5 minutes. And in the down direction if passengers are connecting for Haverfordwest/Milford it could be a very long wait.

Good news about the HOWL however. It deserves a better service.

Cardiff Central's minimum connection time is 7 minutes.

Some of the connections work well: the two-hourly MkIV services terminating at Cardiff can connect well into a West Wales DMU (e.g. 0956 arrival, and a 1007 departure for Milford) but the vast majority of them don't. And on the eastbound journeys, I can't find any Carmarthen-Cardiff DMUs that connect into the MkIV services leaving Cardiff. It seems at a glance that the timings are the based on the previous paths, when the same unit operated east and west of Cardiff. A three minute dwell is fine if you're staying on the same train, but not if there's a change required.

 

[pt_mad]

I think you'd find the Stafford to Preston/Glasgow/Edinburgh etc. market (plus improved connections from Penkridge, Stone, Stoke, the Trent Valley etc.) is larger than the NW-Oxford/Banbury/Leamington market and in any case, the fact that the connections worked out well in the southbound direction was a mere coincidence. They were always poor northbound..

Are the connections towards Scotland improved from the Trent Valley?

Isn't the West Mids/Scot service still timed to depart Crewe at approx the same time as it did pre-covid, with passengers previously just connecting onto this service at Crewe rather than Stafford?

 

[TheBigD]

Trent Valley local arrives Stafford at ××34, Glasgow/Edinburgh departs at ××47.

Glasgow/Edinburgh arrives Stafford at ××22, Trent Valley local departs at ××32.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2022 ==

Are the connections towards Scotland improved from the Trent Valley?

Isn't the West Mids/Scot service still timed to depart Crewe at approx the same time as it did pre-covid, with passengers previously just connecting onto this service at Crewe rather than Stafford?

 

[JonathanH]

What is the analogous service?

The London to Lincoln / York 'stopper' departing Kings Cross at xx06 is the analogous ECML service to the LNR Trent Valley service but there aren't any small places like Atherstone and Rugeley on the ECML. If these two stations didn't exist the Trent Valley service could arguably be with Avanti.

The new Birmingham service in the December timetable and the Trent Valley service are basically similar in nature.

 

[Watershed]

The London to Lincoln / York 'stopper' departing Kings Cross at xx06 is the analogous ECML service to the LNR Trent Valley service but there aren't any small places like Atherstone and Rugeley on the ECML. If these two stations didn't exist the Trent Valley service could arguably be with Avanti.

The new Birmingham service in the December timetable and the Trent Valley service are basically similar in nature.

I wouldn't call Rugeley a small place. It's got 24,000 people. I don't think there are any towns of that size on the ECML which lack a station.

Rugeley is also the junction for the Chase Line, meaning the fastest route from London to Walsall, Cannock etc. is often via a change at Rugeley.

 

[TheBigD]

Retford is probably the smallest place with a station on the ECML south of York.
It has a similar sized population of around 23,500.

Retford (Nottinghamshire, East Midlands, United Kingdom) - Population Statistics, Charts, Map, Location, Weather and Web Information

Retford (Nottinghamshire, East Midlands, United Kingdom) with population statistics, charts, map, location, weather and web information.

www.citypopulation.de

 

[The Planner]

The timetable is aspiration reality may well be something different given their current poor showing.

No one is going to re-write the base now.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

No one is going to re-write the base now.

Understood and lets hope the current disputes can be bought to a conclusion so all the hard work to get a more resilient timetable on the West Coast has the chance to prove itself.

 

[390136]

Sad to see Avanti doing a stopper by emulating a LNWR service. Fantastic idea lets rip off passengers by charging them for Avanti tickets to travel on a slower LNWR style stopping service.

It's only WFJ MKC RUG COV BHI BHM... Hardly an LNWR service. Besides if it bothers you that much get the XX:10 which leaves 6 mins earlier which is non stop to COV.

 

[TEW]

There are some changes to the SWR timetable.

The Portsmouth Direct line sees a slight rejigging of services as discussed earlier in this thread. There will be 2tph London Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour, about 30 minutes apart in Waterloo arrivals and departures. One is much slower than the other though, skipping only Witley and Milford between Guildford and Portsmouth Harbour. The current Waterloo-Portsmouth & Southsea stoppers terminate at Haslemere and call additionally at Farncombe in the up direction. That means Farncombe goes back up to 2tph. On Saturdays the timetable remains similar to now, although Farncombe increases to 2tph. The Portsmouth & Southsea stopper in the up direction leaves earlier and is overtaken at Haslemere which allows it to then pick up a Farncombe call.

The xx05 Waterloo-Weymouth semi fast services will now detach a Poole portion at Bournemouth which means Branksome and Parkstone go back up to 2tph. The same happens in the reverse direction.

The Aldershot-Ascot line is retimed in the peak with services that previously ran ECS due to the through Waterloo services running now running in service which means the peak frequency is increased.

There's a new later fast Waterloo to Guildford service running Monday-Saturday departing at 0033. Replaces the 0009 Waterloo-Guildford stopping service which will terminate at Woking.