December 2022 Timetable Changes

[dk1]

Not really a Loser considering IIRC they had no via Brums pre covid anyway though I suppose they lose out compared to now.

They were one of the few places to actually benefit from a covid timetable. I am happy the Glasgows are back and hopefully May 2023 those last Blackpool services get reverted back to Glasgow.

Blackpool doesn't need a frequent London service when you consider how good of a frequency it has to Preston.

If 390s were to serve Blackpool then they would be better off as a new separate TV service like what they had pre-covid. However maybe Lancaster would be a better place to send those?

Oh yes I agree they don’t need a frequent service but it’s not as good as it was. Also the previous set up prior to 2020 didn’t make the most of those that went via the TV as they often followed a Glasgow in both directions rather than relieve it & allow the Anglo-Scottish to then miss Wigan/Warrington as Virgin Trains did shortly after VHF was introduced.

 

[Horizon22]

True but the original timetable would have been even more controversial.

Also I think some have realised London Bridge is not as dire as it was forseen to be to change at.

 

[northwichcat]

It's good to see a fast Piccadilly to York service being reintroduced (i.e. not going via Victoria). It's a shame it's not consistent though e.g. 15:35 to Scarborough and 16:30 to Newcastle. I don't mind the final destinations alternating but the 5 minutes difference affects whether or not an official connection can be made or not.

 

[Watershed]

It's good to see a fast Piccadilly to York service being reintroduced (i.e. not going via Victoria). It's a shame it's not consistent though e.g. 15:35 to Scarborough and 16:30 to Newcastle. I don't mind the final destinations alternating but the 5 minutes difference affects whether or not an official connection can be made or not.

This is nothing new. The Hull services do this today - xx35 off Piccadilly in off-peak hours (09:35 to 15:35, where they run non-stop from Stalybridge to Huddersfield) and xx30 in peak hours (before 09:35 and after 15:35, where they stop at the intermediate stations).

Due to the fact that this timetable involves 'stitching' together different paths (the Newcastle services were xx45 off Victoria in December 2019, whilst the Scarborough services were xx30), the journey times aren't consistent and there are some long dwells at Stalybridge and Huddersfield. Unfortunately with the platforming constraints at Piccadilly main shed, it's not possible to depart the services later to avoid this hanging around.

 

[cle]

Good question, with a slightly complex answer.

The SRT’s for anything with an 80x or ‘Diesel Multiple Unit, changes en Route’ (ie also an 80x) assume the linespeed change for non tilt stock.

However, as the Pendolini and 221s can tilt, they can meet the SRTs comfortably, at least on those sections where tilting is required. IIRC the SRTs on the sections off the mainline where tilting is not required has been kept the same as the 221s, @The Planner will confirm.

This means the timetable will work with the existing stock, with the existing linespeed, on all the new timings.

The new linespeed profile needs to be delivered before the 80x can be brought into service in these timings, ie the 80x will not work to the new SRTs without the linespeed changes. So, if the 80x arrive and are ready for service before the linespeed work is done, then either the stock is delayed and the existing trains kept going, or the 80x enter service but run with delays.

What are the linespeed improvements to be unlocked? Is it making EPS speeds attainable for non-tilt, or other actual new improvements? Anything north of Preston?

 

[Bald Rick]

What are the linespeed improvements to be unlocked? Is it making EPS speeds attainable for non-tilt, or other actual new improvements? Anything north of Preston?

There’s threads elsewhere on it. But it is lifting the PS, in places, between Euston and Weaver Jn.

 

[NewClee153]

The timetable changes at Smethwick Galton Bridge make either good or grim reading depending on where you’re going to. Services from Birmingham New Street certainly are “more evenly spaced out” being at: xx:11 (Wolverhampton), xx:34 (Liverpool), xx:41 (Wolverhampton), xx:56 (Shrewsbury) - with a xx:26 (Shrewsbury) at peak times

However - and this is where the loss of the Transport for Wales services is really felt, going to Birmingham New Street, services depart Smethwick Galton Bridge at: xx:06 (ex Wolves), xx:10 (ex Liverpool), xx:36 (ex Wolves), xx:44 (ex Shrewsbury) - with a xx:14 (ex Shrewsbury) at peak times. Not even a direct service to Birmingham International to soften the blow (but Sandwell and Dudley now has 2 an hour!)

Admittedly the spacing between services wasn’t fantastic beforehand (05, 22, 39, 43), it’s certainly a lot better than it's going to be. Disappointing, but I’m intrigued to ride the new 196s when they’re all in use

In terms of the Snow Hill lines, it looks like nothing has changed? I was expecting at least a clockface (half hourly) timetable to Whitlock's End and Dorridge, but I’m used to little/incremental changes were Snow Hill services are concerned

 

[LowLevel]

People have mentioned the EMR failure to bring back the half hourly Robin Hood line as yet...

However what will hopefully be extremely useful is the return of the Nottingham - Matlock peak and shoulder peak through trains. It was a busy market pre COVID from Matlock and Belper in particular and with the state of the roads in the area I am sure it will be again provided it runs reliably - I would say it is one of the top questions I get asked - "when are the through trains to Nottingham coming back".

It's not the all day service it was - but it does at least give several hours breadth of service with some competitive arrival times - and finally reinstates Attenborough's links to Derby and gives Spondon more trains.

Hopefully something we can build upon when the fleet is sorted out.

 

[northwichcat]

Birmingham to Liverpool still appears to be only 1tph. How long can a 50% service reduction due to COVID remain?

 

[The Planner]

The timetable changes at Smethwick Galton Bridge make either good or grim reading depending on where you’re going to. Services from Birmingham New Street certainly are “more evenly spaced out” being at: xx:11 (Wolverhampton), xx:34 (Liverpool), xx:41 (Wolverhampton), xx:56 (Shrewsbury) - with a xx:26 (Shrewsbury) at peak times

However - and this is where the loss of the Transport for Wales services is really felt, going to Birmingham New Street, services depart Smethwick Galton Bridge at: xx:06 (ex Wolves), xx:10 (ex Liverpool), xx:36 (ex Wolves), xx:44 (ex Shrewsbury) - with a xx:14 (ex Shrewsbury) at peak times. Not even a direct service to Birmingham International to soften the blow (but Sandwell and Dudley now has 2 an hour!)

Admittedly the spacing between services wasn’t fantastic beforehand (05, 22, 39, 43), it’s certainly a lot better than it's going to be. Disappointing, but I’m intrigued to ride the new 196s when they’re all in use

In terms of the Snow Hill lines, it looks like nothing has changed? I was expecting at least a clockface (half hourly) timetable to Whitlock's End and Dorridge, but I’m used to little/incremental changes were Snow Hill services are concerned

Snow Hill changes are mooted for May 23.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2022 ==

Birmingham to Liverpool still appears to be only 1tph. How long can a 50% service reduction due to COVID remain?

They will carry on as 8 cars for a while yet.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Birmingham to Liverpool still appears to be only 1tph. How long can a 50% service reduction due to COVID remain?

As is Reading–Birmingham, which is ironic given that work is about to take place at Oxford North to "create capacity for additional Oxford to Birmingham passenger services"...

One unexpected tweak on the Cotswold Line in December: the evening "Oxfordshire Halts" Turbo, after running to Moreton-in-Marsh as per usual, will continue ECS to Evesham, where it forms an 18.51 to Oxford.

 

[Esker-pades]

Backward step for Hazel Grove services too, they appear to be interworked with the Buxton, so will be DMU operated. This because Blackpool-Manchester Airport has gone half hourly replacing the Blackpool-Hazel Grove EMU 6-car service.

A case of back to future! The wires to Hazel Grove were hardly used for many years prior to Blackpool electrification.

The new timetable gives Hazel Grove a half hourly service from Piccadilly instead of the current 20/40 minutes intervals. All services will be to/from the Picc main shed, instead of split between the main shed and P13/14. So hardly a backward step from the point of view of Hazel Grove - Manchester passengers.

It will also be possible to extend the Hazel Grove terminator to Buxton in a future timetable change, restoring the pre-Covid frequency on the Buxton line.

Which is the answer - the provision for 2tph to Buxton.

 

[northwichcat]

Which is the answer - the provision for 2tph to Buxton.

But at the same time Buxton, Macclesfield and Northwich were all supposed to get 2tph. Buxton had the weakest business case but when Northern had received sufficient cascaded units the Buxton enhancement went ahead because it was operationally easier. Long term questions have to be asked about whether the Buxton line should return to a pre-COVID level when it shouldn't have been the highest priority for enhancing. If all three lines got their enhanced service there wouldn't be an issue.

Given the current Stoke line loadings at the weekend you could question whether 2tph to Macclesfield and 1tph to Stoke would be sufficient or whether Congleton needs an additional service as well.

 

[RailWonderer]

I can't find this timetable online. Where is everybody getting it from? i've gone back several pages and done a google search and can't find anything.

 

[dk1]

I can't find this timetable online. Where is everybody getting it from? i've gone back several pages and done a google search and can't find anything.

It’s on Realtimetrains if you enter a date after the December TT change.

 

[krus_aragon]

Eventually it'll be 5 cars + DVT (1 first, 1 buffet, 3 std) but it might not have the 3rd standard in December. However, all the Manchester MKIV services are showing STD only so it may well be 1st is declassified at least until the longer sets come in.

As for mk4s to Manchester, not much of a boost of standard class seats of the 2.5 standard class coaches compared to a 3 coach 175, with first class carrying mostly fresh air

Perhaps not initially, but it will be 3.5 std.
Quite probably until then 1st will be declassified.

Will TfW even bother using the first class carriages in the Manchester rakes for the time being? I'd have assumed not. (RTT only shows them as having a trolley service, too.)

 

[Techniquest]

Birmingham to Liverpool still appears to be only 1tph. How long can a 50% service reduction due to COVID remain?

As inconvenient as it is sometimes, I like the way it is as I know I'm normally getting an 8 car train now. Which usually means more space available, and that pleases me a lot! So I'd rather it stayed hourly and 8 car permanently!

As is Reading–Birmingham, which is ironic given that work is about to take place at Oxford North to "create capacity for additional Oxford to Birmingham passenger services"...

One unexpected tweak on the Cotswold Line in December: the evening "Oxfordshire Halts" Turbo, after running to Moreton-in-Marsh as per usual, will continue ECS to Evesham, where it forms an 18.51 to Oxford.

I wonder why it does that with the stopper, seems a bit random!

 

[craigybagel]

Will TfW even bother using the first class carriages in the Manchester rakes for the time being? I'd have assumed not. (RTT only shows them as having a trolley service, too.)

The plan is for them to interwork with the Holyhead sets

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Birmingham to Liverpool still appears to be only 1tph. How long can a 50% service reduction due to COVID remain?

For as long as that’s what DfT choose to specify for WMT.

 

[Efini92]

There’s threads elsewhere on it. But it is lifting the PS, in places, between Euston and Weaver Jn.

Do you know where they are looking at raising the PS speeds?

 

[markyl]

When will the Southeastern "proposed" changes be made public clearly a lot of cryptic comments from people who have seen the timetables?

 

[setdown]

Birmingham to Liverpool still appears to be only 1tph. How long can a 50% service reduction due to COVID remain?

Not only that, but they’ll now be using the “other” 30 min slot from the old twice-an-hour timetable, which means a 30-min earlier train if you want to get into Liverpool before 9am, and a 55-minute connection into the Trent Valley services southbound. But as long as Avanti get their new timetable eh! #cynical

 

[The Planner]

Do you know where they are looking at raising the PS speeds?

Over the vast majority of it, but not a substantial amount of 125, varies between the existing 110 with sections of 115, 120 and 125.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

When will the Southeastern "proposed" changes be made public clearly a lot of cryptic comments from people who have seen the timetables?

Won't be until September.

 

[OliverH68]

SWR & Heathrow Express now upstream.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you know where they are looking at raising the PS speeds?

Yes.

When will the Southeastern "proposed" changes be made public clearly a lot of cryptic comments from people who have seen the timetables?

another few weeks yet.

 

[Peter0124]

Wait so based on Avantis recent staffing issues do we think the Dec Timetable will end up being postponed or will it actually happen?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Wait so based on Avantis recent staffing issues do we think the Dec Timetable will end up being postponed or will it actually happen?

The base timetable is there, so any timetable postponement would most probably be an STP overlay of the Dec timetable until Avanti crew situation improved to a certain level.

I think the successfull running of Dec all depends on when the current industrial dispute is solved.

 

[181]

The Avantis to from Euston to Glasgow via West Midlands seem to be back at long last!

But retimed slightly later south-bound, breaking the connection with the hourly XC services to Oxford/Reading/South Coast, which is rather annoying.

Presumably the same happens with the Edinburgh trains, does it? The railway seem to have it in for people travelling from the north and Scotland to Oxford and points south -- there's already a wait of nearly an hour at Birmingham if you're coming from the Sheffield/ECML direction, and it sounds as if the same will happen for journeys from the northern WCML as well. I hope that whoever it is that benefits from the latest change, they are suitably grateful.

(Yes, I know you can go via London, but for my journeys that's usually a bit more expensive, a bit slower than can be achieved with a decent service on the direct route, and much less convenient).

 

[DaveHarries]

Looking further into this, there are actually quite a few changes with the HOWL. From Shrewsbury there's now 5 through services plus 2 shorts to Llandrindrod. Departures at:
0420 (to Llandrindrod)
0522
0856
1121
1517
1807
2129 (to Llandrindrod)

Similarly at the south end of the line it's 5 through services plus 2 short workings to Llandovery.
0512 Carmarthen to Llandovery
0605
0927
1159
1437
1839 (all Swansea to Shrewsbury)
2134 (Swansea to Llandovery).

Times for Llandovery are now on RealTimeTrains and, going by the schedule from Llandrindod for Monday 19th December 2022, it is worth noting that later trains will be on offer:

From Shrewsbury:
2V00 0420 Shrewsbury - Llandrindod, arr. 0545
2V02 0626 Llandovery - Swansea, arr. 0805
2V04 0522 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 0931
2V06 0856 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 1301
2V08 1121 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 1534
2V10 1517 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 1937
2V12 1807 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 2206
2V14 2129 Shrewsbury - Llandrindod, arr. 2300
2V16 2243 Llandovery - Swansea, arr. 0016

To Shrewsbury:
2M02 0550 Llandrindod - Shrewsbury, arr. 0738
2M04 0547 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 0946
2M06 0909 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 1313
2M08 1140 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 1543
2M10 1418 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 1832
2M12 1819 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 2221
2M14 2115 Swansea - Llandovery, arr. 2237
2M16 2310 Llandrindod - Shrewsbury, arr. 0034

On Saturdays the offering, going by timings at Llandovery, will be slightly different with 6 services each way and timings tweaked, in most cases, by only a minute or two (although there are some slightly bigger timing variations). Also the last one from Llandovery does not go to Swansea:

Southbound:
2V04 0524 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 0934
2V06 0856 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 1303
2V08 1126 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 1539
2V10 1525 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 1939
2V12 1808 Shrewsbury - Swansea, arr. 2212
2V16 2243 Llandovery - Carmarthen, arr. 0011

Northbound:
2M04 0549 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 0945
2M06 0908 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 1310
2M08 1143 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 1545
2M10 1430 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 1832
2M12 1818 Swansea - Shrewsbury, arr. 2226
2M14 2115 Swansea - Llandovery, arr. 2237

However the Sunday schedules are still shown as two each way but they may have yet to be uploaded. The planning of the improved Sunday service may not be helped much by the fact that, according to RTT, there is a planned evening freight path from Margam TC to Llanwrtyd and return.

HTH,
Dave