December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Watershed]

Is the reason for this inconsistency the different freight paths? It seems odd that on a route that basically has a clockface passenger service for everything else that this can't be pathed clockface.

Yes, in essence. The problem is that there's a huge degree of variability in terms of the trailing load, limiting speed (class 4 vs 6), length and origin/destination. It would work fine if you had standard paths, but that would mean you would have to reduce the amount of freight paths overall, as well as making many of them slower.

To make the maximum rational use of the available capacity, what is ultimately needed is to force the FOCs to run all freights with sufficient (electric!) traction that they have the same performance regardless of trailing load. Of course you'd have to upgrade the power supply and compensate them for the cost of the loco changes required, and so it's not going to happen...

 

[James90012]

The other slot is xx.37 which is a Pendo timed path.

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Should be the same, unless any have been tweaked for being a bit ropey.

Great thanks for the detail. By process of elimination would the Stirling paths be the XX:20 when not used by LNWR? Also noted that this is the path used by the NR measurement train.

 

[Watershed]

I wouldn't be confident of Avanti actually running all of what is in the timetable, but it at least shows an intention to bring them back.

It just means they have an intention not to lose the paths. They are in good company amongst TOCs that bid for paths but later decide they won't run them...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Avanti Chester/North Wales services are pretty much restored to hourly, though the times have changed (xx32 from Chester, xx02 from Euston).
Calls at Milton Keynes have been swapped to Stafford, with a few variations during the day.
The RTT pathing notes say curiously "125mph DMU" west of Crewe, but "Diesel locomotive" south of Crewe.
There are several ECS workings to/from Barton under Needwood which obviously apply to the present 221s.
The old (pre-covid) 0710 Euston-Chester and 0935 return is replaced by one of these ECS workings to Chester, to form a 0920 to Euston, stopping additionally in the Trent Valley.
Similarly the former last Chester-Euston (1935) is replaced by an ECS back to Burton, so the last Euston is now at 1732.
The Blackpool portion of the first Holyhead-Euston is back, but needs a 15 minute wait at Crewe to join up.
We are back to 3 Avanti trains stabling at Holyhead each night (2 used at weekends).

 

[MP393]

2232 remains as a DMU to Shrewsbury that comes from the Chester route, with the loco that arrives at 2215 running ECS to Crewe instead.

From what I can tell the 22:32 comes off the 21:15 arrival from Cardiff 1W64 which splits into the 21:3x and 22:32 services back to Shrewsbury - I can’t see an arrival from Chester that doesn’t go through to the Airport.

(The 21:55 arr at MAN (1H96) that currently forms that train goes to the Airport from December and forms 1D47 back to Chester by the looks of it!)

Also interesting to see the empty stock back to Crewe around 23:45, but no inward working in yet - would indicate the later service coming back in from Cardiff - Manchester that has been missing since COVID.

 

[berneyarms]

I've not had the chance to go through the full TfW timetable, but there are big changes on Manchester - West Wales Services.

It remains hourly from Manchester at or around xx:30. Odd hours remain as DMUs, mostly to Carmarthen. Even hours are 67 & MKIVs, all to Cardiff only bar the 1630 to Swansea. 2232 remains as a DMU to Shrewsbury that comes from the Chester route, with the loco that arrives at 2215 running ECS to Crewe instead.

To balance it out, the DMUS seem to work Manchester - Carmarthen - Cardiff - Milford Haven - Manchester, so stations West of Carmarthen only get a service east of Cardiff in one direction (though in my experience through passenger numbers are pretty negligible anyway).

Also, in a pleasant surprise, the HOWL gains a late night service. 2129 Shrewsbury to Llandrindrod, and return.

There seems to be one service missing out of Cardiff to Manchester on RTT at around 16:50?

Also, interesting to note that the Mk 4 sets will be out on Saturdays but not Sundays.

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How many carriages will these MK4s have? The Manchester line gets busy, not sure the 2.5 carriages will do much (plus 1 first class which isn't really used except the Gerald)

Manchester - South Wales should all terminate at Swansea. Through usage is shocking. Use the Cheltenham Spa train or Ebbw Vale to Milford Haven (and those lines) as that retains the Cardiff link but also means capacity can match usage and services can be more punctual being ran as part of a smaller loop.

They don’t have enough Mark 4 sets to do that and maintain a two hourly loco hauled service on the Marches route.

 

[Peter0124]

On a slightly off-topic note:
for Avanti services at Euston from December:
The vast majority of Glasgow workings are now booked to interwork entirely with Manchester, whereas before it used to be Liverpool services forming 1Sxx Glasgow and 1Mxx Glasgow forming Manchester.

 

[markymark2000]

There seems to be one service missing out of Cardiff to Manchester on RTT at around 16:50?

Also, interesting to note that the Mk 4 sets will be out on Saturdays but not Sundays.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2022 ==


They don’t have enough Mark 4 sets to do that and maintain a two hourly loco hauled service on the Marches route.

I never said for all the Manchester to South Wales to be MK4s. The mix of MK4s and 175s is ok but often I think the capacity is wasted sending 3 cars down to Milford Haven and Pembroke etc and often these areas have or cause delays which ends up with late running straight through or the west trai finishing in Cardiff then Cardiff depot providing whatever they have available to send up to Manchester. Anyone on the west portion then has to sit around for however long for the next train up the marshes.

 

[Starmill]

I see that as has been reported in the local papers, Irlam won't initially be served by the TransPennine Express services due to platform issues, so the call there has been hidden, but is still timed for.

But comparing end to end journey times with the current timetable, in no case, in either direction, does the time between Windermere and Piccadilly or the Airport increase by more than 2 minutes.

Yes indeed, because the current journey times are filled with the same enormous amount of slack.

The 0630 and 0712 Chester to Stockport and 1708 Stockport to Chester could be making a return too.

 

[dk1]

Another loser to an extent is Blackpool unless anything changes. In the down direction through trains leave Euston 07:40 & 11:40 via Birmingham & a new 17:07 first stop Crewe via the TV reaches the resort in 2h53. Unfortunately up road it’s rather poor with just two services, both via Brum, departing at 11:51 & 15:51.

 

[47421]

Greater Anglia on RTT now, only looked at West Anglia, which appears to be unaltered to today, so StanExp continues with only 5 of 9 diagrams operating, and the 1707 and 1807 Liv St Kings Lynn peak extras are not reinstated.

Curious as to what is to happen to the 4 spare 12car Stadlers

 

[DelW]

Looking further into this, there are actually quite a few changes with the HOWL. From Shrewsbury there's now 5 through services plus 2 shorts to Llandrindrod. Departures at:
0420 (to Llandrindrod)
0522
0856
1121
1517
1807
2129 (to Llandrindrod)

Similarly at the south end of the line it's 5 through services plus 2 short workings to Llandovery.
0512 Carmarthen to Llandovery
0605
0927
1159
1437
1839 (all Swansea to Shrewsbury)
2134 (Swansea to Llandovery).

At a quick glance, this seems to have dealt with some of the collateral damage produced by some of the 2015 changes. It should make it easier for locals to use the trains for shopping trips to Tesco / Aldi at Llandrindod without taking 3/4 of the day to do so. It also improves options for days out from Llanwrtyd with the return of an 11:00 (ish) departure southbound as well as northbound. Looks like good news for HoWLTA's efforts to get nearer to a regular interval timetable, and hopefully will improve passenger numbers again.
All the line needs now is some better trains than 153s, but sadly that battle seems to have been lost for a decade or so.

 

[craigybagel]

From what I can tell the 22:32 comes off the 21:15 arrival from Cardiff 1W64 which splits into the 21:3x and 22:32 services back to Shrewsbury - I can’t see an arrival from Chester that doesn’t go through to the Airport.

(The 21:55 arr at MAN (1H96) that currently forms that train goes to the Airport from December and forms 1D47 back to Chester by the looks of it!)

Indeed after I posted I noticed the move from Chester couldn't actually work. Good of you to find what they've done instead.

Also interesting to see the empty stock back to Crewe around 23:45, but no inward working in yet - would indicate the later service coming back in from Cardiff - Manchester that has been missing since COVID.

The whole inward working 1W76 isn't showing yet. It was 2015 Cardiff - Manchester for years, but cut back to Crewe during Covid. Hopefully that means it is indeed coming back.

At a quick glance, this seems to have dealt with some of the collateral damage produced by some of the 2015 changes. It should make it easier for locals to use the trains for shopping trips to Tesco / Aldi at Llandrindod without taking 3/4 of the day to do so. It also improves options for days out from Llanwrtyd with the return of an 11:00 (ish) departure southbound as well as northbound. Looks like good news for HoWLTA's efforts to get nearer to a regular interval timetable, and hopefully will improve passenger numbers again.

Indeed, other than an earlier evening departure from Shrewsbury (1807 vice 1830) it should hopefully prove very popular.

There seems to be one service missing out of Cardiff to Manchester on RTT at around 16:50?

Yes that's very odd. It's return working at 2030 from Manchester is showing. Hopefully there's more details to come, like with the 2015.

 

[mm333]

Indeed, it looks like Northern's service is largely returning to the planned December 2021 timetable, at least around Yorkshire, with the Huddersfield - Castleford restored at the peak, Huddersfield - Bradford returning to hourly and the missing services from Leeds to Knottingley and Sheffield being restored. Let's hope the changes actually go ahead, as this will make a significant different to many communities across the north.

The Doncaster-Scunthorpe stopper is back as a train and not a bus. Although it's staying two-hourly instead of going back to hourly.

 

[_toommm_]

There are several ECS workings to/from Barton under Needwood which obviously apply to the present 221s.

What’s the plan for when the 805s and 807s enter service? Will their home base be Edge Hill (along with the 802s that stable there overnight), or is there a purpose-built depot being built?

 

[HarryF]

What’s the plan for when the 805s and 807s enter service? Will their home base be Edge Hill (along with the 802s that stable there overnight), or is there a purpose-built depot being built?

I think Oxley was mentioned at the start of the Avanti franchise as a possible maintenance facility for the 80x units

 

[Peter0124]

Another loser to an extent is Blackpool unless anything changes. In the down direction through trains leave Euston 07:40 & 11:40 via Birmingham & a new 17:07 first stop Crewe via the TV reaches the resort in 2h53. Unfortunately up road it’s rather poor with just two services, both via Brum, departing at 11:51 & 15:51.

Not really a Loser considering IIRC they had no via Brums pre covid anyway though I suppose they lose out compared to now.

They were one of the few places to actually benefit from a covid timetable. I am happy the Glasgows are back and hopefully May 2023 those last Blackpool services get reverted back to Glasgow.

Blackpool doesn't need a frequent London service when you consider how good of a frequency it has to Preston.

If 390s were to serve Blackpool then they would be better off as a new separate TV service like what they had pre-covid. However maybe Lancaster would be a better place to send those?

 

[berneyarms]

I never said for all the Manchester to South Wales to be MK4s. The mix of MK4s and 175s is ok but often I think the capacity is wasted sending 3 cars down to Milford Haven and Pembroke etc and often these areas have or cause delays which ends up with late running straight through or the west trai finishing in Cardiff then Cardiff depot providing whatever they have available to send up to Manchester. Anyone on the west portion then has to sit around for however long for the next train up the marshes.

I didn’t say you did suggest they should be all Mark 4.

You said that all the Manchester-South Wales trains should all be Manchester-Swansea.

What I am saying is that would result in a much more limited Mark 4 operation on the route than what is planned (i.e. every two hours) through turning them at Cardiff, as there aren’t enough sets.

I think a core Mark 4 service every two hours between Cardiff and Manchester is the ideal solution.

 

[Kite159]

.

Greater Anglia on RTT now, only looked at West Anglia, which appears to be unaltered to today, so StanExp continues with only 5 of 9 diagrams operating, and the 1707 and 1807 Liv St Kings Lynn peak extras are not reinstated.

Curious as to what is to happen to the 4 spare 12car Stadlers

I wonder how long until the DfT decide that those peak time extensions to Kings Lynn get binned permanently, with the services being spun at Cambridge (or even Ely). Using the excuse of route duplication.

As for mk4s to Manchester, not much of a boost of standard class seats of the 2.5 standard class coaches compared to a 3 coach 175, with first class carrying mostly fresh air

 

[lammergeier]

The Doncaster-Scunthorpe stopper is back as a train and not a bus. Although it's staying two-hourly instead of going back to hourly.

And not going through to Meadowhall/Sheffield either. Plus a 3 hour gap in service in both directions mid morning, so a fairly miserable compromise of a service, but at least it's coming back at all, small mercies.

 

[berneyarms]

As for mk4s to Manchester, not much of a boost of standard class seats of the 2.5 standard class coaches compared to a 3 coach 175, with first class carrying mostly fresh air

Perhaps not initially, but it will be 3.5 std.
Quite probably until then 1st will be declassified.

 

[Peter0124]

Also strangely there is only 2tph London-Manchester whereas 3tph rest of week.

Think RTT is missing the xx.13 from Euston to Manchester on Saturdays hopefully it's just a glitch as the return working is there.

 

[northwichcat]

Just been looking at how connectivity compares for Mid-Cheshire services for the December 2022 change compared to now. I've just done Stockport for now


Manchester bound direction

December 2022:

Excellent connections at Stockport (5-15 minutes after Chester arrival):
Crewe (local)
Cleethorpes
London
Liverpool

Very poor connections at Stockport (55-64 minutes after Chester arrival):
None

Current:

Excellent connections at Stockport (5-15 minutes after Chester arrival):
London
Liverpool
Cleethorpes

Very poor connections at Stockport (55-64 minutes after Chester arrival):
Buxton

Chester bound direction

December 2022:

Excellent connections at Stockport (5-15 minutes before Chester departure):
London Euston

Very poor connections at Stockport (55-64 minutes before Chester departure):
Liverpool
Bournemouth

Current:

Excellent connections at Stockport (5-15 minutes before Chester departure):
Stoke (local)

Very poor connections at Stockport (55-64 minutes before Chester departure):
Southport
Liverpool
Cleethorpes

So overall no significant change either way. I expect they'll be more for Piccadilly.

 

[Huntergreed]

I withdraw my previous comments about the Glasgow via Birmingham services. It seems they're alternating it, 1 train per 2 hours (even hours) to Edinburgh, and the odd hours are 1tp4h to Glasgow or Blackpool.

A few more observations local to me, I note that Lockerbie has gained a few services which I'm delighted to see (including a morning Glasgow service which I'll be using a lot!), and I see that some of the timing loads have changed to 'diesel locomotive' (which I assume is what they're using for the new 80X - I'm assuming they won't be ready for December!)

I note in particular that one Birmingham - Glasgow (9S77) and the return (1M20) Glasgow - Crewe are timed for Voyagers, which if true will be Glasgow's first regular, timetabled voyager service since early 2020.

I was under the impression that 221's were being withdrawn north of Preston from December?

 

[jfollows]

Extremely disappointed to see that the Euston to Glasgow via Birmingham services are still not back.

Surely this will be May 2023? If not, I've lost hope they'll ever return.

I think this thread states that they are back, for example 9S55 09:40 Euston-Glasgow via Birmingham https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C51008/2022-12-14/detailed

See post 718 and others:

The Avantis to from Euston to Glasgow via West Midlands seem to be back at long last!

 

[Huntergreed]

I think this thread states that they are back, for example 9S55 09:40 Euston-Glasgow via Birmingham https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C51008/2022-12-14/detailed

See post 718 and others:

Indeed, I simply picked an hour and mistakenly jumped to conclusions, good to see them back at long last, albeit not every 2 hours, but every 4. Nonetheless good to see.

 

[Peter0124]

Indeed, I simply picked an hour and mistakenly jumped to conclusions, good to see them back at long last, albeit not every 2 hours, but every 4. Nonetheless good to see.

Even though its roughly every 4 hours during the day, the 9S85 15:43 goes to Glasgow instead of Blackpool, as does the 9M48 05:48 ex Glasgow.

The old 1S34 05:57 Crewe to Glasgow Central has been extended southwards to start at Wolverhampton at 05:23. At the moment it runs as the 1P38 05:20 from Birmingham to Blackpool, it basically replaces that from December.

So actually you could say it's closer to 75% of the Glasgow/Blackpool service goto Glasgow whereas only 25% to Blackpool. Something like that.

 

[The Planner]

I withdraw my previous comments about the Glasgow via Birmingham services. It seems they're alternating it, 1 train per 2 hours (even hours) to Edinburgh, and the odd hours are 1tp4h to Glasgow or Blackpool.

A few more observations local to me, I note that Lockerbie has gained a few services which I'm delighted to see (including a morning Glasgow service which I'll be using a lot!), and I see that some of the timing loads have changed to 'diesel locomotive' (which I assume is what they're using for the new 80X - I'm assuming they won't be ready for December!)

I note in particular that one Birmingham - Glasgow (9S77) and the return (1M20) Glasgow - Crewe are timed for Voyagers, which if true will be Glasgow's first regular, timetabled voyager service since early 2020.

I was under the impression that 221's were being withdrawn north of Preston from December?

There shouldn't be any 80x north of Weaver unless they have changed things. Always take the timing load with the caution it deserves.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Seamer connections are often a cause for anxiety if there's late running.
From December the York bound xx34 ex Scarborough is retimed to xx48
Slightly longer journey but more robust connections with passengers going through to Scarborough to change if all on time.
The Sunday hanging around at Filey continues - bad planning

 

[Peter0124]

There shouldn't be any 80x north of Weaver unless they have changed things. Always take the timing load with the caution it deserves.

I've noticed that the ECS from Polmadie to Edinburgh no longer goes via the E&G. Guess this is a consequence of it running as a 390 rather than Voyagers (390s aren't route cleared via Carmyle and Falkirk IIRC).

That means I guess the Polmadie/Edinburgh crew will no longer sign via E&G. I do wonder why the 9S77/1M20 services will be Voyagers though.