December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Mathew S]

The Avantis to from Euston to Glasgow via West Midlands seem to be back at long last!

But retimed slightly later south-bound, breaking the connection with the hourly XC services to Oxford/Reading/South Coast, which is rather annoying.

 

[northernchris]

There appears to be a brand new 21:44 from Wigan Wallgate, 22:30 departure from Man. Vic. but this runs semi-fast into Leeds, missing most stations, and non-stop from Bradford. Saturdays five minutes later and non-stop from Hebden Bridge!

The Leeds - Wigan's look to have around 70 minutes turnaround at Wigan, so the 2144 could be a way of balancing out the units. Suspect running non stop from Hebden Bridge could be linked to the TRU works allowing the service to be diverted if required.

 

[Peter0124]

Definite improvements on Avantis end with the 1tp4h to Glasgow via Brum. Whether the timetable actually runs is a different matter though.

 

[TheBigD]

Very disappointed that the Robin Hood Line remains hourly. Although to be quite honest it’s not being hourly that’s the problem, I could live with that, it’s the fact that the hourly train connects with so little in Nottingham. I’ve used it regularly since it reopened but rarely use it now if I’m travelling beyond Nottingham, as up to an hour wait for connections in both directions is so inconvenient.

I agree with London and Birmingham connections being ok. I’m in Birmingham now for a few days and did use the Robin Hood Line to connect at Nottingham. It’s not so good if you need to reach any destinations on the Liverpool to Norwich route, Lincoln, Grantham for ECML connections. Although it connects with the Cross Country train for Derby and Birmingham that then misses the connection to the South West at Derby. Perhaps I’m part of a very small minority of passengers using the Robin Hood Line for these onward connections but having been used to good connections off the missing Mansfield Woodhouse trains for 20+ years I find it very frustrating.

Purely out of curiosity, would connections at both ends of the line be improved if the Robin Hood line service was swapped for the opposit half hour?

So would Sheffield connections at Worksop improve along with say, Norwich or Skegness at Nottingham?

Mods - maybe better in speculation section?

 

[Bald Rick]

SWR were told to park their changes by DfT so why not SE i wonder?

The Southeastern changes save a lot of money. The SWR changes….

DfT ordered Southeastern to bring forward their timetable change.

Not quite ‘ordered’. agreed, more like.

Lots of examples of good and bad connections can be found. The main thing is that it’s just a shame that EMR have cut the service for a town the size of Mansfield by half, and got away with it, and I very much suspect that the half hourly trains may never return.

Its not EMR that have taken that decision.

 

[station_road]

But retimed slightly later south-bound, breaking the connection with the hourly XC services to Oxford/Reading/South Coast, which is rather annoying.

That seems mostly to accommodate the extra stop at Stafford for the AWC service, it now follows the XC service by a couple of minutes from Stafford.

The northbound XC service from Birmingham to Manchester via Crewe is now later (8.24 instead of 7.45) and still doesn't stop at Wilmslow, the corresponding southbound service at 17.25 continues to miss out both Wilmslow and Crewe. I wonder if those stops will ever reappear?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

SWR were told to park their changes by DfT so why not SE i wonder?

Because the SWR one had extra trains in it whereas the SE one has cuts so they obviously go for the one with cuts to save money.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I note that the last Manchester to Lancaster is only three minutes earlier than now despite the proposal originally (and modified) being it being a fair bit earlier. Is there to be a further change in 2023 to complete the Picc 13/14 timetable recast, or have they conceded to knocking that a bit later still on a permanent basis?

The last train seems out of pattern as well - but hopefully it does stay!

Shame to see the connection lost from the xx30 Euston fast to the Cumbria services for half the day. A retrograde step.

Also is there any knowledge on how many of the services are actually planned to be 6 cars?

 

[miklcct]

Euston standard hour departures (all day including peaks) are:

xx09/xx39 Harrow, Bushey, Watford Jn, all stations to MKC (this means Cheddington gets 2tph during the day, not 1tph)
xx23/xx56 (Watford - xx23 only), Leighton, Bletchley, MKC, Wolverton, Northampton, stations to Birmingham
xx24/xx54 Tring semifast (not Bushey, Apsley, Kings Langley)
xx46 Crewe via TV, first stop MKC

Well done LNR.

Euston - Harrow & Wealdstone - Watford Junction trains have become a regular 15-minute frequency during the day. Much higher chance for people to hop on the LNR train to bypass the Overground.

From what I can see is that, the 7 trains today, which 2 fast to MKC (1 calling at Watford Jn), 1 fast to Leighton Buzzard, 2 semi-fast and 2 stopping, will become 1 fast to MKC, 2 fast to Leighton Buzzard (1 calling at Watford Jn), 2 semi-fast (with a stop at Harrow & Wealdstone added) and 2 stopping, right?

Sundays the pattern is very slightly different but broadly similar in concept:
No Trings
xx21/xx52 all stations to MKC
xx22/xx56 Birmingham semifast
xx45 Crewe via TV

And the total loss of semi-fast on Sunday, currently 2 fast to MKC (1 calling at Watford Jn), 1 semi-fast, 1 stopping, becoming 1 fast to MKC, 2 fast to Leighton Buzzard (1 calling at Watford Jn), and 2 stopping, right?

It seems that the new timetable has increased frequency a lot at the expense the journey time for longer-distance passengers. I hope that the extra amount of short-distance passengers can compensate for the increased cost of having slower trains.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Because the SWR one had extra trains in it whereas the SE one has cuts so they obviously go for the one with cuts to save money.

Argh thanks for feedback. So will this throw off further surplus stock then?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2022 ==

The Southeastern changes save a lot of money. The SWR changes….

crewing costs and some modest variable track access charges i guess unless it saves on stock

 

[TheBigD]

The new pattern for Avanti see departures from Euston at...

××02 Chester
××10 Birmingham
××13 Manchester
××16 Birmingham (stopper)
××30 Glasgow
××33 Manchester
××40 Birmingham then Scotland
××43 Liverpool
××53 Manchester

 

[Peter0124]

Actually there is a lot of changes to Avanti.

There's a 22:15 from Manchester back to Euston. Last train used to be 21:15. Also a 22:00 from Euston to Liverpool.

And most of the Liverpool services say Pathed as 80x on Electric, and also seem to be working mostly self contained diagrams, does that mean the 807s will be running by December? The service is only hourly still except for some extras in the Peaks so would that mean lower capacity? ie hourly 7 car 807s rather than 9 or 11 car Pendolinos.

 

[miklcct]

Timetable changes on my local lines:

Cricklewood (Thameslink)

Mon - Fri

• Most northbound trains calling at Kentish Town, Cricklewood & Hendon will become St Albans trains, in contrast to current arrangement where Luton trains dominate the calls in the peaks, however, there are still a few odd Luton trains calling in the peak with St Albans trains around them not calling - so confusing that it's easy to get onto a wrong train!
• The odd half-hour interval late evening have been evened out - I have been caught out for a few times at West Hampstead between 22:14 and 22:44! In the new timetable, the longest headway at West Hampstead between trains calling at Cricklewood is 21 minutes until 00:27 Mon - Fri, while in the southbound direction at Cricklewood, the gaps between 19:58 and 20:28, and between 21:28 and 21:58, are gone with a neat 15-minute headway from 06:44 to 22:59, alternating between Sutton via Mitcham Junction and Sutton via Wimbledon.
• All trains from Rainham will go to Luton in the morning peak instead of terminating at West Hampstead, while most trains from Orpington will be truncated to West Hampstead (morning, returning to the depot) or Kentish Town (evening, turning back to Orpington from platform 3)
• Both semi-fast trains and stopping trains will gain a call (currently unadvertised) at Brent Cross West, with semi-fast trains calling at St Pancras, West Hampstead, Brent Cross West, Mill Hill Broadway

Sat

• No material change of the timetable, just some minor retiming. The 06:07 St Albans - Sutton (via Wimbledon) has been truncated to start at West Hampstead, making Cricklewood and northwards losing an early morning train.

Sun

• The early morning St Pancras - Bedford stopping trains have been retimed from 06:21, 07:21, 07:51, 08:21 (running in the normal fast train pasttern) to 06:33, 07:33, 08:03, 08:33 (running in the normal stopping train pattern), while the fast 08:51 and 09:21 trains retain their original timing. No material change of timing southbound, just some minor retiming.

Brondesbury (London Overground)
No changes to the timetable

 

[nbdm]

The new pattern for Avanti see departures from Euston at...

××02 Chester
××10 Birmingham
××13 Manchester
××16 Birmingham (stopper)
××30 Glasgow
××33 Manchester
××40 Birmingham then Scotland
××43 Liverpool
××53 Manchester

Although it is great to have 3tph back for Manchester & Birmingham, it's a shame it isn't back to the old (pre-COVID) 'clockface' timetable of every 20 minutes, for instance, the xx10 and xx16 to Birmingham leaving so close.

Another observation is a stop at Nuneaton appears to have been added on 1tph Manchester.
Looks like no additional stops for other Trent Valley stations however.

 

[LowLevel]

looking at the new TT, the connections at Nottingham seem entirely reasonable. 17 mins to Birmingham / Cardiff, 22 mins to London.

@LowLevel As someone who work these trains, out of interest, how many people typically connect on the RHL?




arranged specially!

It varies. It is fair to say the vast majority of people make internal RHL journeys - mostly to Nottingham, Hucknall for the shops, Sutton Parkway for the college and factories, Mansfield for work and shopping, Shirebrook for Sports Direct and Worksop for work/shopping.

However there always seems to be plenty of people heading for Leicester/London in the morning peak (Leicester they seem to be mostly medical staff/students).

The rest is more sporadic. Friday - Monday there is far more leisure long distance travel, particularly to London.

The daytime Mansfield Woodhouse trains were to be fair rarely particularly busy, but they were convenient, I suppose. Saturday was always the exception and still is, the 3 car 170s leave people behind on match days and are generally full otherwise, and of course you can just walk out without a ticket at Nottingham.

The route is an odd one in many respects. For example, you still take plenty of cash fares - old habits die hard - and they're far from keen on the ticket vending machines/revenue protection inspectors - they generally have a miserable time up there.

 

[Fokx]

Hourly Saltburn to Manchester Airport from December!

Also Hull to Liverpool starts, along with two-hourly Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough or Newcastle.

The Cleethorpes to Liverpool route is also up with a stopping pattern of: Manchester Pic, Manchester Oxf, Birchwood, Warrington Cent, Warrington West, South Parkway and Lime St.

Services on the Manchester Pic - Scarborough or Newcastle will replace the peak extra calls from the Hull diagrams calling at Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite.

After 1930, the Huddersfield stopping services will combine calling at all stations between Manchester and Leeds.

 

[craigybagel]

I've not had the chance to go through the full TfW timetable, but there are big changes on Manchester - West Wales Services.

It remains hourly from Manchester at or around xx:30. Odd hours remain as DMUs, mostly to Carmarthen. Even hours are 67 & MKIVs, all to Cardiff only bar the 1630 to Swansea. 2232 remains as a DMU to Shrewsbury that comes from the Chester route, with the loco that arrives at 2215 running ECS to Crewe instead.

To balance it out, the DMUS seem to work Manchester - Carmarthen - Cardiff - Milford Haven - Manchester, so stations West of Carmarthen only get a service east of Cardiff in one direction (though in my experience through passenger numbers are pretty negligible anyway).

Also, in a pleasant surprise, the HOWL gains a late night service. 2129 Shrewsbury to Llandrindrod, and return.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I've not had the chance to go through the full TfW timetable, but there are big changes on Manchester - West Wales Services.

It remains hourly from Manchester at or around xx:30. Even hours remain as DMUs, mostly to Carmarthen. Odd hours are 67 & MKIVs, all to Cardiff only bar the 1630 to Swansea. 2232 remains as a DMU to Shrewsbury that comes from the Chester route, with the loco that arrives at 2215 running ECS to Crewe instead.

To balance it out, the DMUS seem to work Manchester - Carmarthen - Cardiff - Milford Haven - Manchester, so stations West of Carmarthen only get a service east of Cardiff in one direction (though in my experience through passenger numbers are pretty negligible anyway).

Also, in a pleasant surprise, the HOWL gains a late night service. 2129 Shrewsbury to Llandrindrod, and return.

And yet how disappointing to see that the Milford Haven westbound connection is often 0 minutes, meaning you’re stuffed.

What a shoddy bit of timetabling that is.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Because the SWR one had extra trains in it whereas the SE one has cuts so they obviously go for the one with cuts to save money.

There aren't really many cuts on the Southeastern one anymore.

 

[dk1]

Although it is great to have 3tph back for Manchester & Birmingham, it's a shame it isn't back to the old (pre-COVID) 'clockface' timetable of every 20 minutes, for instance, the xx10 and xx16 to Birmingham leaving so close.

I thought that was because two are now planned to be fast to Coventry with the other (xx:16?) doing the honours at Watford, Milton Keynes & Rugby.

 

[craigybagel]

I thought that was because two are now planned to be fast to Coventry with the other (xx:16?) doing the honours at Watford, Milton Keynes & Rugby.

Correct. Half hourly fast service plus an hourly semifast that will make the most of the better acceleration and lower top speed without tilt of the 807s when they're introduced.

 

[markymark2000]

I've not had the chance to go through the full TfW timetable, but there are big changes on Manchester - West Wales Services.

It remains hourly from Manchester at or around xx:30. Even hours remain as DMUs, mostly to Carmarthen. Odd hours are 67 & MKIVs, all to Cardiff only bar the 1630 to Swansea. 2232 remains as a DMU to Shrewsbury that comes from the Chester route, with the loco that arrives at 2215 running ECS to Crewe instead.

To balance it out, the DMUS seem to work Manchester - Carmarthen - Cardiff - Milford Haven - Manchester, so stations West of Carmarthen only get a service east of Cardiff in one direction (though in my experience through passenger numbers are pretty negligible anyway).

Also, in a pleasant surprise, the HOWL gains a late night service. 2129 Shrewsbury to Llandrindrod, and return.

How many carriages will these MK4s have? The Manchester line gets busy, not sure the 2.5 carriages will do much (plus 1 first class which isn't really used except the Gerald)

Manchester - South Wales should all terminate at Swansea. Through usage is shocking. Use the Cheltenham Spa train or Ebbw Vale to Milford Haven (and those lines) as that retains the Cardiff link but also means capacity can match usage and services can be more punctual being ran as part of a smaller loop.

 

[craigybagel]

Also, in a pleasant surprise, the HOWL gains a late night service. 2129 Shrewsbury to Llandrindrod, and return.

Looking further into this, there are actually quite a few changes with the HOWL. From Shrewsbury there's now 5 through services plus 2 shorts to Llandrindrod. Departures at:
0420 (to Llandrindrod)
0522
0856
1121
1517
1807
2129 (to Llandrindrod)

Similarly at the south end of the line it's 5 through services plus 2 short workings to Llandovery.
0512 Carmarthen to Llandovery
0605
0927
1159
1437
1839 (all Swansea to Shrewsbury)
2134 (Swansea to Llandovery).

 

[Bald Rick]

crewing costs and some modest variable track access charges i guess unless it saves on stock

yes it saves stock.

And most of the Liverpool services say Pathed as 80x on Electric, and also seem to be working mostly self contained diagrams, does that mean the 807s will be running by December?

No, they won’t be remotely close to service by December. But the Pendolinos can (easily) keep to 80x timings so no worries there.

 

[A S Leib]

Effectively no change to the early morning Watford Junction to Glasgow Central train but the Liverpool one will leave 45 minutes later (06:31 instead of 05:46) and takes fifty minutes longer as it will run via Birmingham, meaning Watford's only direct morning Liverpool train will get there at 09:37 instead of 08:04. The former 06:51 to Manchester nonstop to Crewe will be replaced by a 07:01 via MKC, Rugby, Stoke and Macclesfield, arriving at Manchester fifteen minutes later. All Milton Keynes to Chester services are going, and unless an earlier service just hasn't been put in the system yet the first service to Liverpool from there is scheduled to arrive at 09:04.

Looking at southbound services, there won't be a long gap between the 16:50 and 18:30 BHM - WFJs (replaced by xx:21 services all the way to 20:21, an ex-GLC service, then 21:11 ex-Edinburgh, 22:17 from Wolverhampton and 23:11 ex-Edinburgh). Instead of a 16:55 (Crewe) and 20:15 (Stoke) Manchester to Watford there'll be a 22:15 (Macclesfield and Nuneaton); the 21:15's staying but arriving six minutes later because of Lichfield and Tamworth stops. The four evening Liverpool to Watford services - 17:47, 18:47, 19:47, 20:48 - are being cut back to one at 20:51 (although that isn't as bad for Hemel et al as Milton Keynes gets an all-day Liverpool service). Departure times of services from Preston are barely changing; the 18:17 arriving at WFJ at 21:27 will be from Glasgow (and Motherwell) instead of Blackpool and pick up a Stafford call, arriving at Watford Junction ten minutes later; the 19:18 ex-Edinburgh will also call at Stafford but only arrive eight minutes later; the 20:59 (18:40 from Glasgow) will skip Crewe but still call at Rugby and Milton Keynes, arriving at Watford Junction eight minutes earlier and the 21:18 (18:52 from Edinburgh) will arrive at Watford Junction twenty-five minutes earlier, also calling at Stafford and still running via Northampton.

The northbound Highlander will no longer call at Watford Junction.

 

[The Planner]

Actually there is a lot of changes to Avanti.

There's a 22:15 from Manchester back to Euston. Last train used to be 21:15. Also a 22:00 from Euston to Liverpool.

And most of the Liverpool services say Pathed as 80x on Electric, and also seem to be working mostly self contained diagrams, does that mean the 807s will be running by December? The service is only hourly still except for some extras in the Peaks so would that mean lower capacity? ie hourly 7 car 807s rather than 9 or 11 car Pendolinos.

No, they won’t be remotely close to service by December. But the Pendolinos can (easily) keep to 80x timings so no worries there.

The Pendos will be hanging around at stations to get back to booked.

Although it is great to have 3tph back for Manchester & Birmingham, it's a shame it isn't back to the old (pre-COVID) 'clockface' timetable of every 20 minutes, for instance, the xx10 and xx16 to Birmingham leaving so close.

Another observation is a stop at Nuneaton appears to have been added on 1tph Manchester.
Looks like no additional stops for other Trent Valley stations however.

That is because the xx.10 and xx.40 have been sped up to be right away Coventry, the xx.16 picks up the other stops.

 

[James90012]

Do we know if the SRTs for the Chesters are with or without the linespeed change for non-tilt stock?

I note that the 'spare' paths (i.e. those that used to get you from 9tph to 11tph AWC services) are now XX:07, used by a Blackpool in the PM but presumably is for Liverpool's second service in the longer term. The other 'gap' is XX:36 but that would need to be a tilting 390 to not be run down by the XX:40...!

 

[Bald Rick]

Do we know if the SRTs for the Chesters are with or without the linespeed change for non-tilt stock?

Good question, with a slightly complex answer.

The SRT’s for anything with an 80x or ‘Diesel Multiple Unit, changes en Route’ (ie also an 80x) assume the linespeed change for non tilt stock.

However, as the Pendolini and 221s can tilt, they can meet the SRTs comfortably, at least on those sections where tilting is required. IIRC the SRTs on the sections off the mainline where tilting is not required has been kept the same as the 221s, @The Planner will confirm.

This means the timetable will work with the existing stock, with the existing linespeed, on all the new timings.

The new linespeed profile needs to be delivered before the 80x can be brought into service in these timings, ie the 80x will not work to the new SRTs without the linespeed changes. So, if the 80x arrive and are ready for service before the linespeed work is done, then either the stock is delayed and the existing trains kept going, or the 80x enter service but run with delays.

 

[The Planner]

Do we know if the SRTs for the Chesters are with or without the linespeed change for non-tilt stock?

I note that the 'spare' paths (i.e. those that used to get you from 9tph to 11tph AWC services) are now XX:07, used by a Blackpool in the PM but presumably is for Liverpool's second service in the longer term. The other 'gap' is XX:36 but that would need to be a tilting 390 to not be run down by the XX:40...!

The other slot is xx.37 which is a Pendo timed path.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2022 ==

Good question, with a slightly complex answer.

The SRT’s for anything with an 80x or ‘Diesel Multiple Unit, changes en Route’ (ie also an 80x) assume the linespeed change for non tilt stock.

However, as the Pendolini and 221s can tilt, they can meet the SRTs comfortably, at least on those sections where tilting is required. IIRC the SRTs on the sections off the mainline where tilting is not required has been kept the same as the 221s, @The Planner will confirm.

This means the timetable will work with the existing stock, with the existing linespeed, on all the new timings.

The new linespeed profile needs to be delivered before the 80x can be brought into service in these timings, ie the 80x will not work to the new SRTs without the linespeed changes. So, if the 80x arrive and are ready for service before the linespeed work is done, then either the stock is delayed and the existing trains kept going, or the 80x enter service but run with delays.

Should be the same, unless any have been tweaked for being a bit ropey.

 

[craigybagel]

How many carriages will these MK4s have? The Manchester line gets busy, not sure the 2.5 carriages will do much (plus 1 first class which isn't really used except the Gerald)

Eventually it'll be 5 cars + DVT (1 first, 1 buffet, 3 std) but it might not have the 3rd standard in December. However, all the Manchester MKIV services are showing STD only so it may well be 1st is declassified at least until the longer sets come in.

Manchester - South Wales should all terminate at Swansea. Through usage is shocking. Use the Cheltenham Spa train or Ebbw Vale to Milford Haven (and those lines) as that retains the Cardiff link but also means capacity can match usage and services can be more punctual being ran as part of a smaller loop.

Cheltenham & Ebbw Vale services will be 231s, which won't be running to Milford.