December 2021 Timetable change

[infobleep]

Not seen mention of Southern in this thread, but it appears that:

- Gatwick Express is back, as a 2tph Victoria-Brighton fast service calling only at the airport, off-peak. Because of the airport station improvement works, there wouldn’t have been the old 4tph service in any event.
- In consequence, Haywards Heath and East Croydon lose 2tph to Brighton/Victoria, versus the situation today. The ‘red trains’ are presently calling at both under the Southern banner, in similar paths to GatEx.
- Uckfield is back to hourly, off peak: currently two-hourly.
- Brighton to Hove shuttles are back, 2tph, for the 313 bashers.

What isn’t returning in December:

- Brighton-Lewes shuttles (was 2tph)
- Brighton-West Worthing stoppers (was 2tph)
- Brighton-Ore (was 1tph, though there is an hourly Brighton-Hastings semi-fast at the opposite half-hour, as now)
- East Grinstead half-hourly (still only 1tph between peaks)
- The odd gaps in the otherwise 2tph service on Victoria-East Coastway, and also the Seaford branch
- The x2 Eastbourne-London Bridge services in both directions with the peak flow. Also the Seaford portion of a Victoria peak working in both directions, so no joining/splitting at Lewes for the forseeable

Shame to see the Haywards Heath stop removed as it was an additional services from Brighton. Still, I guess all good things must come to an end at some time.

If an additional services to Haywards Heath aren't needed, I'm surprised they added it in the first place, given during the pandemic, no one was travelling and as things began to pick up, it wouldn't be a sudden rush of people all at once. Of course, I say that with the benefit of any hindsight.

 

[Ianno87]

One of the issues over the past 18months with the 1txx has been platforming at Cambridge. Some of the 1t must use platform 1 but due to signal sighting in platform 1 for 12 carriage 387’s, an extra driver is needed to dispatch the train competently. Obviously the extra cost of an extra driver per train is not ideal, so has not been approved and hence not all trains run as 12 carriages when they could. Not really GTRs call to make..

Didn't know that was the case, but presumably as all 12-cars attach/detach at Cambridge, you have a second driver in place anyway to shunt the 4-car portion to/from the sidings.

 

[tornado]

This is probably the tiniest notable change in the Avanti Dec timetable but I've noticed that the 1627 London-Glasgow becomes the 1630, still arriving at 2059. That gives a journey time of 4 hr 29 mins. So if you're looking for a fast run up the WCML that's a good one to go for (in theory).

(The actual fastest is the 12.40pm southbound on a saturday afternoon in 4 hr 28)

 

[dk1]

This is probably the tiniest notable change in the Avanti Dec timetable but I've noticed that the 1627 London-Glasgow becomes the 1630, still arriving at 2059. That gives a journey time of 4 hr 29 mins. So if you're looking for a fast run up the WCML that's a good one to go for (in theory).

(The actual fastest is the 12.40pm southbound on a saturday afternoon in 4 hr 28)

Apart from the infamous 4h08 16:30 down, Virgin at one time used to run some xx:40 up services fast from Preston if there was a Lancaster starter right behind which then did the honours at Wigan & Warrington. This allowed the Glasgow to be timed for 4h23. I’m sure it all ended when Anglo-Scottish via Trent Valley services went hourly.

 

[Ianno87]

Apart from the infamous 4h08 16:30 down, Virgin at one time used to run some xx:40 up services fast from Preston if there was a Lancaster starter right behind which then did the honours at Wigan & Warrington. This allowed the Glasgow to be timed for 4h23. I’m sure it all ended when Anglo-Scottish via Trent Valley services went hourly.

Yes, because the Up Lancaster starter in each case was formed from the 1030/1230 terminating short and bouncing back to Euston. Quite clever really.

The 1430 also terminated short but I think picked up the path of what would have been the 1030's return working, with no extra fast that hour.

 

[dk1]

Yes, because the Up Lancaster starter in each case was formed from the 1030/1230 terminating short and bouncing back to Euston. Quite clever really.

The 1430 also terminated short but I think picked up the path of what would have been the 1030's return working, with no extra fast that hour.

I was so hoping the Blackpool’s (when operating properly rather than the current hitch pitch arrangement) would have done something similar bu alas no.

 

[TheBigD]

Yes, because the Up Lancaster starter in each case was formed from the 1030/1230 terminating short and bouncing back to Euston. Quite clever really.

The 1430 also terminated short but I think picked up the path of what would have been the 1030's return working, with no extra fast that hour.

In the early years of the VHF timetable the 1430 was also a 5 car Voyager Mondays to Thursdays. On a Friday the Voyager did an extra 1333 departure to Lancaster with the 1430 being a Pendolino and extended through to Glasgow.

 

[Ianno87]

In the early years of the VHF timetable the 1430 was also a 5 car Voyager Mondays to Thursdays. On a Friday the Voyager did an extra 1333 departure to Lancaster with the 1430 being a Pendolino and extended through to Glasgow.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that!

 

[dk1]

In the early years of the VHF timetable the 1430 was also a 5 car Voyager Mondays to Thursdays. On a Friday the Voyager did an extra 1333 departure to Lancaster with the 1430 being a Pendolino and extended through to Glasgow.

It’s all coming back to me now.

 

[Bikeman78]

So how do you manage that between a Manchester-Bournemouth service (that naturally wants to be in Platform 1/2/3) and a Edinburgh-Plymouth service (that wants to be in Platform 10/11/12) without extensive rebuilding the approaches to New Street or killing capacity?

Is that even the most important connection? Might there actually be more people who want to (say) make local connections within the West Midlands?

Ultimately yes I'd go for the extensive rebuild. We need to work out what we want the Intercity/inter regional service to look like. The goal should be half hourly clockface service on all the main routes within good connections at major interchanges.

 

[The Planner]

Ultimately yes I'd go for the extensive rebuild. We need to work out what we want the Intercity/inter regional service to look like. The goal should be half hourly clockface service on all the main routes within good connections at major interchanges.

No one is going to go for a rebuild of New St. Cost, disruption and no real way of dealing with displaced passengers for a start. The resignalling finishes next christmas, so no one is going to undo that for the next 20 years.

 

[Bikeman78]

No one is going to go for a rebuild of New St. Cost, disruption and no real way of dealing with displaced passengers for a start. The resignalling finishes next christmas, so no one is going to undo that for the next 20 years.

It's a classic case of if I were going there I wouldn't start from here.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Remember, a lot of the stuff that is returning should be in the current WTT anyway, but was removed in September due to GTR's crew shortages. The exception are the Gatwick Express services, not sure why they have been bought back to be honest.

According to CAA latest stats for Gatwick in September passenger volumes were only 29% of 2019 levels so agree GATEX isn't really needed and surprised DofT have sanctioned it but clearly the opportunity to rip off the few tourists still coming is too good a ruse to miss.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

According to CAA latest stats for Gatwick in September passenger volumes were only 29% of 2019 levels so agree GATEX isn't really needed and surprised DofT have sanctioned it but clearly the opportunity to rip off the few tourists still coming is too good a ruse to miss.

The one I find baffling is the re-introduction of the 2tph Victoria - Gatwick Airport non-stop on Sunday. That service will carry completely fresh air.

At least the other 2 act as a replacement for the 2tph Victoria - Brighton and will still go to Brighton so they will be busier.

 

[JonathanH]

Gatwick Express has never run south of Gatwick on a Sunday though - running six days a week would seem a bit odd.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

At least the other 2 act as a replacement for the 2tph Victoria - Brighton and will still go to Brighton so they will be busier.

These should stop at C.Jcn as there are no through services from here a real disincentive for enabling travel from SW london to an extremely popular destination.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

These should stop at C.Jcn as there are no through services from here a real disincentive for enabling travel from SW london to an extremely popular destination.

I think they would stop them at Clapham Junction if they could, but my understanding is there is currently a signalling limitation meaning that currently only 10tph can call at Clapham Junction on the fast lines. There is certainly enough slack in the timeable for the stop to be added in.

Hopefully that will changes when the Victoria resignalling is finished.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think they would stop them at Clapham Junction if they could, but my understanding is there is currently a signalling limitation meaning that currently only 10tph can call at Clapham Junction on the fast lines. There is certainly enough slack in the timeable for the stop to be added in.

Hopefully that will changes when the Victoria resignalling is finished.

They could easily put a call on without any infrastructure work in the off peak and given there isn't much of peak then as well.

Ex Vic
xx01 Ore
xx06.5 pass GX to Brighton
xx12 Pompy

Would need to be timed to run 2mins earlier from Vic and doesn't need to call at E.Croy. So sort of service improvement that will attract passengers which what industry needs to be doing. No doubt someone will put me right that there is some operating reason why it can't be done.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

They could easily put a call on without any infrastructure work in the off peak and given there isn't much of peak then as well.

Ex Vic
xx01 Ore
xx06.5 pass GX to Brighton
xx12 Pompy

Would need to be timed to run 2mins earlier from Vic and doesn't need to call at E.Croy. So sort of service improvement that will attract passengers which what industry needs to be doing. No doubt someone will put me right that there is some operating reason why it can't be done.

There is an operational/infrastructure reason, I can't exaxtly remember what it is. But I do agree, that a stop should be put in as soon as it can be done operationally wise, as it can easily be added in the timetable off peak.

 

[Jturner98]

Does anyone know what services the LNWR class 319s will be operating after the December timetable change?

 

[FenMan]

The one I find baffling is the re-introduction of the 2tph Victoria - Gatwick Airport non-stop on Sunday. That service will carry completely fresh air.

At least the other 2 act as a replacement for the 2tph Victoria - Brighton and will still go to Brighton so they will be busier.

Last Sunday there were 153 departures from Gatwick. Using an average of 180 seats per aircraft, the potential number of passengers that passed through the airport is 180*2*153 = c. 55,000.

Gatwick Express units have a capacity of 366 seats, so 2tp in each direction gives just under 1,500 seats an hour. I doubt they'll carry fresh air as
the explosion in leisure travel will mean the Brightons are being well patronised in any case, making it a good idea to not clog them up with airport traffic.

The return of Gatwick traffic on my local line, the North Downs, has been obvious for a while.

 

[Kite159]

.

Last Sunday there were 153 departures from Gatwick. Using an average of 180 seats per aircraft, the potential number of passengers that passed through the airport is 180*2*153 = c. 55,000.

Gatwick Express units have a capacity of 366 seats, so 2tp in each direction gives just under 1,500 seats an hour. I doubt they'll carry fresh air as
the explosion in leisure travel will mean the Brightons are being well patronised in any case, making it a good idea to not clog them up with airport traffic.

The return of Gatwick traffic on my local line, the North Downs, has been obvious for a while.

However most passengers from London to Gatwick will simply ignore the Gatwick Express services due to the premium over a regular Southern service.

The only passengers will be tourists who don't know that a regular Southern service doesn't take that much longer and as a bonus calls at places they might want to go to

 

[JonathanH]

However most passengers from London to Gatwick will simply ignore the Gatwick Express services due to the premium over a regular Southern service.

The only passengers will be tourists who don't know that a regular Southern service doesn't take that much longer and as a bonus calls at places they might want to go to

There are plenty of people who will just catch the first train to Gatwick from Victoria and there are plenty of places you can travel to Gatwick from via Victoria where no premium applies (although I agree that on Oyster / Contactless or specially from London Victoria it will be more expensive).

 

[MDB1images]

So I take it there's no good news in December then, based on the recent posts? Nothing worth celebrating, nothing worth doing, just all acting like it's doomsday ahead for the railway...

I'll not add my thoughts on what's stopping more leisure travel from bouncing back, I'll be here all day with that!

So how about we stop flapping about what DfT might or might not do, and have a look at what good news is coming up. Haven't we got station openings due, with new services and journey opportunities to enjoy? Surely a better subject than 'DfT might permanently cut back lots of services'!

A bit of positivity.
TPE on Anglo-Scots have put back in the vast majority of Airport to Glasgow services from Dec(think it's just the last one North and South and an afternoon Liverpool rotation missing along with the last Edinburgh-Airport), passenger loads on the Edinburghs are very good(4 Car Class 350 wouldn't cope on some trains if we still had them), as Scotland still has some restrictions around masks on board(which could still put people off/think the train is a risk) it's a positive for sure and equally we haven't had the large Japanese contingent visiting the lakes or Middle Eastern/Chinese contingents visiting Edinburgh this year which I'm certain will return as the risks subside(of course UK staycation leisure offset that drop this year, if we keep some of that business it could be another positive).
Was initially just a lot of leisure passengers travelling but the business passengers are slowly returning and 1st class loads are quickly creeping up, catering was needed to return earlier than planned and is busy, a higher standard of catering(that was initially planned with the introductions of the new stock)is still expected, might be baby steps at first but at least it's happening.
Airport passengers are now returning to Manchester/Edinburgh Airports in greater numbers and they are also using the train with many travelling long distance(with US flights returning this week, I expect this to rise further)wwwwß
The TOC are actively trying to encourage passengers back(Club 55 the latest target incentive)so not just sitting still hoping for the best or presuming everyone is work from home or driving.

As a side note many local roads/motorways are now getting some serious queues/delays as the quiet roads COVID restrictions created have evaporated so expect Northern will see some of the benefit from that.

 

[Ianno87]

.


However most passengers from London to Gatwick will simply ignore the Gatwick Express services due to the premium over a regular Southern service.

The only passengers will be tourists who don't know that a regular Southern service doesn't take that much longer and as a bonus calls at places they might want to go to

There are plenty of people who will just catch the first train to Gatwick from Victoria and there are plenty of places you can travel to Gatwick from via Victoria where no premium applies (although I agree that on Oyster / Contactless or specially from London Victoria it will be more expensive).

As long as you get enough passengers who are willing (Knowingly or unknowingly) to pay the premium fare, that is the main thing. The railway cannot contemplate just turning away that revenue at the present time.

 

[Techniquest]

A bit of positivity.
TPE on Anglo-Scots have put back in the vast majority of Airport to Glasgow services from Dec(think it's just the last one North and South and an afternoon Liverpool rotation missing along with the last Edinburgh-Airport), passenger loads on the Edinburghs are very good(4 Car Class 350 wouldn't cope on some trains if we still had them), as Scotland still has some restrictions around masks on board(which could still put people off/think the train is a risk) it's a positive for sure and equally we haven't had the large Japanese contingent visiting the lakes or Middle Eastern/Chinese contingents visiting Edinburgh this year which I'm certain will return as the risks subside(of course UK staycation leisure offset that drop this year, if we keep some of that business it could be another positive).
Was initially just a lot of leisure passengers travelling but the business passengers are slowly returning and 1st class loads are quickly creeping up, catering was needed to return earlier than planned and is busy, a higher standard of catering(that was initially planned with the introductions of the new stock)is still expected, might be baby steps at first but at least it's happening.
Airport passengers are now returning to Manchester/Edinburgh Airports in greater numbers and they are also using the train with many travelling long distance(with US flights returning this week, I expect this to rise further)wwwwß
The TOC are actively trying to encourage passengers back(Club 55 the latest target incentive)so not just sitting still hoping for the best or presuming everyone is work from home or driving.

As a side note many local roads/motorways are now getting some serious queues/delays as the quiet roads COVID restrictions created have evaporated so expect Northern will see some of the benefit from that.

Thanks for that, good news indeed there. I still wear my masks on trains, I work in a busy place and I feel it's just common sense to look after myself and others (especially those exempt) whenever possible. I've yet to have symptoms of the dreaded c-word, granted I had the early stages of a cold the other week but that evaporated with some Night Nurse tablets overnight with a good sleep. I do think wearing a mask has helped that no end! Just because it isn't a legal requirement doesn't mean it's not a good idea!

Those of us who foresaw it coming as compulsory in shops, before it happened last year, have been wearing them for well over a year now. I started at least a week before it happened, probably at least 2 weeks, and quite honestly I don't see why people have an issue with wearing them on trains!

Quite frankly, at this time of year they help keep the face warm, and that means there's no need for a scarf! Even more reason to wear one as far as I'm concerned.

Here's hoping TPX will soon enough reinstate the final few trains missing, I really need to get up there and get exploring again.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A bit of positivity.
TPE on Anglo-Scots have put back in the vast majority of Airport to Glasgow services from Dec(think it's just the last one North and South and an afternoon Liverpool rotation missing along with the last Edinburgh-Airport), passenger loads on the Edinburghs are very good(4 Car Class 350 wouldn't cope on some trains if we still had them), as Scotland still has some restrictions around masks on board(which could still put people off/think the train is a risk) it's a positive for sure and equally we haven't had the large Japanese contingent visiting the lakes or Middle Eastern/Chinese contingents visiting Edinburgh this year which I'm certain will return as the risks subside(of course UK staycation leisure offset that drop this year, if we keep some of that business it could be another positive).
Was initially just a lot of leisure passengers travelling but the business passengers are slowly returning and 1st class loads are quickly creeping up, catering was needed to return earlier than planned and is busy, a higher standard of catering(that was initially planned with the introductions of the new stock)is still expected, might be baby steps at first but at least it's happening.
Airport passengers are now returning to Manchester/Edinburgh Airports in greater numbers and they are also using the train with many travelling long distance(with US flights returning this week, I expect this to rise further)wwwwß
The TOC are actively trying to encourage passengers back(Club 55 the latest target incentive)so not just sitting still hoping for the best or presuming everyone is work from home or driving.

As a side note many local roads/motorways are now getting some serious queues/delays as the quiet roads COVID restrictions created have evaporated so expect Northern will see some of the benefit from that.

Did a NCL-EDI TPE last thursday early afternoon and was surprised how well it was loaded given it hadn't come from Liverpool and LNER was running on time with no cancellations. Still looks like they aren't running through from Liverpool from Dec but are still providing separate NCL-EDI service.

 

[dk1]

Did a NCL-EDI TPE last thursday early afternoon and was surprised how well it was loaded given it hadn't come from Liverpool and LNER was running on time with no cancellations. Still looks like they aren't running through from Liverpool from Dec but are still providing separate NCL-EDI service.

I think that’s the plan for the majority of TPEs north of Newcastle in the future now the Scottish government is sponsoring them. Will be basically the stand alone local on the route.

 

[Watershed]

Still looks like they aren't running through from Liverpool from Dec

Edinburgh-Liverpool services are not going to return. The best you are going to get is a handful of extensions, or an EDB-NCL forming a NCL-LIV, at the start and end of day where it happens to be operationally convenient to do so.

 

[IanXC]

Edinburgh-Liverpool services are not going to return. The best you are going to get is a handful of extensions, or an EDB-NCL forming a NCL-LIV, at the start and end of day where it happens to be operationally convenient to do so.

There is a planned Edinburgh (stopper to Newcastle) through to York in the evening.