Cross Country

[Zoe]

Leicester-Birmingham is a busy corridor (by passenger numbers), I'll give you that.

I used this service back in 2009 from Birmingham to Nuneaton and it seemed very strange that it was only a two car 170. It was as may be expected, full and standing.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps what needs to be done is reduce the scope of the XC franchise? Run 1tph as an intercity service along the major axes (e.g. Edinburgh-Plymouth) using intercity spec rolling stock.

Then have regional operators run regional semi-fast services to maintain/increase capacity.

So, on the Edinburgh-Plymouth route, XC would run an intercity service making few stops, and, for example
- EMT run services such as Birmingham-Tamworth-Burton-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield then on to Leeds/York/Hull
- Northern/TPE run similar connecting services in the North-East
- ATW/LM run Cardiff-Birmingham semi-fast services
- etc

That way, the XC franchise is focussed on intercity services.

EDIT: The XC franchise could then exclusively use proper intercity stock such as HSTs, with Voyagers cascaded to the regional operators.

I like the sound of this, it's better than the "I hate Voyagers" posts, it offers something constructive.

Something radical needs doing to XC, maybe this is it?

Alternatives...

• Give up the Manchester service. Its wholly under the wires as far as Birmingham/Coventry, it could be given to West Coast. Yes, there are some people doing journeys like Stoke - Reading or Exeter - Stockport, but it'd mean more seats on the Manchester - Birmingham section for the greater good.
  
• Give up the "cross". Have one TOC running Manchester - Birmingham - Reading - South Coast and another TOC running ECML - Birmingham - Bristol - South West. The two companies could be nothing to with each other (e.g. Virgin run the Manchester service and the ECML service is given to the same TOC as Transpennine)?

Use other TOCs to plug the gaps. For example...

• ...if we had capacity we could use the half hourly TPE service from York to Manchester Airport to run on to Crewe/ Wolverhampton/ Birmingham...
  
• ...we could use FGW to run Brighton - Gatwick - Reading - Oxford....
  
• ...we could use EMT to extend some of their St Pancras services north of Sheffield to Leeds/York to give links between these cities and the East Midlands
  
• ...we could use ATW to provide a link between Bristol and Manchester/Liverpool via the Shrewsbury line

It doesn't have to be one TOC providing all these links. But we used to have more TOCs providing longer distance services (Alphaline, Central Citylink, FNW to London), before they all became stuck within "local" boundaries.

Why not start with a blank sheet of paper?

 

[Gareth]

Maybe because Liverpool-New St is 100% OHLE and almost all of New St-Leicester is 100% non-OHLE?

Leicester-Birmingham is a busy corridor (by passenger numbers), I'll give you that.

That is quite likely. The London Midland EMUs are much nicer, I must say.

That said, Manchester to Birmingham is 100% OHLE too, is it not? Yet, its services are XC.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I used this service back in 2009 from Birmingham to Nuneaton and it seemed very strange that it was only a two car 170. It was as may be expected, full and standing.

Indeed, when you consider that Birmingham is the second city and Leicester the tenth largest in Britain, when they are so close together it does make you wonder. All bar one train a day calling at Coleshill Parkway doesn't help either. I would say 3tph or 3-car 170s would be a start.

 

[Zoe]

The two companies could be nothing to with each other (e.g. Virgin run the Manchester service and the ECML service is given to the same TOC as Transpennine)?

You could give the South West to North East service to FGW or East Coast or even have it run jointly. FGW crew as far as Birmingham and East Coast from Birmingham.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That is quite likely. The London Midland EMUs are much nicer, I must say.

That said, Manchester to Birmingham is 100% OHLE too, is it not? Yet, its services are XC.

Yep, but Manchester-Birmingham services continue to either Bournemouth (after Coventry there is no OHLE) or Bristol (after Barnt Green there is no OHLE).

 

[Invincibles]

EMT running north from Sheffield must be possible, particularly to Leeds, as they have HSTs based at Neville Hill (iirc)

Presumably you then have fast XC services running Birmingham - Derby - Sheffield - Doncaster.

Maybe thinking a little more outside the box this is the chance to get Lincoln better connected as TPE can go Sheffield - Worksop - Lincoln and leave their Doncaster path to XC?

 

[Zoe]

Indeed, when you consider that Birmingham is the second city and Leicester the tenth largest in Britain, when they are so close together it does make you wonder. All bar one train a day calling at Coleshill Parkway doesn't help either. I would say 3tph or 3-car 170s would be a start.

At least they have a direct service. Coventry and Leicester are both in the top ten and are relatively close but have no direct service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

EMT running north from Sheffield must be possible, particularly to Leeds, as they have HSTs based at Neville Hill (iirc)

Presumably you then have fast XC services running Birmingham - Derby - Sheffield - Doncaster.

Maybe thinking a little more outside the box this is the chance to get Lincoln better connected as TPE can go Sheffield - Worksop - Lincoln and leave their Doncaster path to XC?

Trouble with that is that it means Doncaster and Scunthorpe would lose a Manchester service, and Sheffield-Cleethorpes via Lincoln is one hell of a long way.

 

[Gareth]

Yep, but Manchester-Birmingham services continue to either Bournemouth (after Coventry there is no OHLE) or Bristol (after Barnt Green there is no OHLE).

Yes, like the Liverpool-Leicester via Birmingham route must've been.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

At least they have a direct service. Coventry and Leicester are both in the top ten and are relatively close but have no direct service.

Indeed, but that could be a whole new thread in itself!

How about (after local services along the XC network are implemented):
1tph:
Plymouth
Newton Abbot (for Torbay)
Exeter St Davids
Taunton
Bristol TM
Bristol Pkwy
Cheltenham Spa
Birmingham New St
Derby
Sheffield
Doncaster
York
Darlington
Newcastle
Berwick
Edinburgh?

 

[Zoe]

Add a Newton Abbot call for connections from Torbay.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yes, like the Liverpool-Leicester via Birmingham route must've been.

Indeed, but you had diesel units working to Manchester regardless, Liverpool actually had EMUs for the journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Add a Newton Abbot call for connections from Torbay.

Done

 

[Gareth]

Indeed, but you had diesel units working to Manchester regardless, Liverpool actually had EMUs for the journey.

How did that work then? It couldn't have been one journey from Liverpool to Leicester then, surely?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think we are getting a bit confused here. Manchester is on XC, so would have had diesel untis regardless to Birmingham; Liverpool isn't, and has EMUs to Birmingham only. There has never been a direct Liverpool-Leicester service AFAIK.

 

[Zoe]

Having this express XC service is all very well but how are you going to prove the business case?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I don't know. What I do know is that XC at the moment is going quite badly, and that something needs to be done so that it really is InterCity once more.

 

[Zoe]

something needs to be done so that it really is InterCity once more.

But this will only be done if it can be shown there is a business case for doing so. I remember XC saying at the time when they remove the shop that most of their customers only used the services for journeys of three hours or less.

 

[tbtc]

Or...

Arrange the services north of Birmingham so that you have

• Birmingham - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield - Wakefield - Leeds
• Birmingham - Derby - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Darlington or Durham (alternatley) - Newcastle (bi hourly to Edinburgh)

At the moment there's a big time penalty for going Newcastle/York - Sheffield/Birmigham via Leeds. Plus the Leeds section is very busy, so there's a fight for seats between the longer distance passengers (who are all diverted via Leeds) and the Leodensians.

At the moment we have two Voyagers between Newcastle and York within about fifteen minutes of each other; its a nonsense.

Running this way would

• Give Edinburgh passengers a faster service to Sheffield/Birmingham
• Allow Leeds - Newcastle to remain with the current hourly TPE service
• Provide more Voyagers to be concentrated on the "core" section of the route
• Speed up the "Newcastle via Doncaster" service as it'd only have one stop between Sheffield and Birmingham

 

[sprinterguy]

Hmmm, as with many places though, is the time taken stopping worth the extra custom? I know it is a hub for South Yorks, East Yorks and North Lincs though.

Access to the fast lines at Doncaster from the Sheffield lines is by an extensive series of crossovers that would undoubtedly limit the speed XC services could pass through Doncaster non-stop, not to mention that the curve approaching from the south is tight. Routing non-stop XC services via the fast lines would also interfere with more services passing through Doncaster than they already do, as currently the XC trains serving Doncaster are grouped on the western island platform. So realistically, any XC services passing through Doncaster non-stop would have to pass through the platform roads they already call at, which more than likely have a fairly low speed limit on them, and in my experience the northbound Crosscountry service is normally held just south of Doncaster on the curve approaching the station, so in short there would be no time benefit from missing out a stop at Doncaster, but a lot of disadvantages from removing interchange capabilities into a wide range of destinations.

 

[tbtc]

I think we are getting a bit confused here. Manchester is on XC, so would have had diesel untis regardless to Birmingham; Liverpool isn't, and has EMUs to Birmingham only. There has never been a direct Liverpool-Leicester service AFAIK.

There was.

Central Trains (under the "Central Citylink" banner) ran Liverpool - Crewe - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester - Peterborough - Cambridge - Stansted.

It was an hourly service. I think it had 158s, but presumably moved to 170s? It was later cut at Birmingham (with any passengers from East Anglia to the North West using the Norwich - Liverpool service instead).

Back then Birmingham - Liverpool was three trains per two hours, as was Birmingham - Manchester. The bi-hourly Birmingham - Liverpool XC service was diverted to run to Manchester instead, and the Central Trains (now LM) service was beefed up to a half hourly EMU.

 

[onlydjw]

There was an hourly Liverpool-Leicester service back in Central days - in fact hourly Liverpool-Birmingham-Leicester-Camberidge-Stanstead Airport.

This was split off due to operational constraints, both with platforming at New Street, and the fact they were nearly always late (and often very late). Splitting this service at New Street allowed the 350's to run New Street-Liverpool as they do now, and 170's to do Birmingham-Stanstead with a half hourly fill in to Leicester in between (mix of 2 and 3 car sets, all well loaded, on cyclic diagrams).

I think that answers a few queries in this thread!

 

[Gareth]

I think we are getting a bit confused here. Manchester is on XC, so would have had diesel untis regardless to Birmingham; Liverpool isn't, and has EMUs to Birmingham only. There has never been a direct Liverpool-Leicester service AFAIK.

But Liverpool used to be on the XC network (although never in this franchise period). It was taken off it by the SRA about ten years or so ago. I'm sure I read somewhere that Liverpool's service was to Leicester. It would certainly make sense, as Leicester-Birmingham is the only XC service that seems to terminate at Birmingham New Street and not pass through it.

EDIT: Thanks to onlydjw for clearing this up!

 

[Zoe]

Before Operation Princess there was one service each day between Plymouth and Liverpool.

 

[sprinterguy]

Or...

Arrange the services north of Birmingham so that you have

• Birmingham - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield - Wakefield - Leeds
• Birmingham - Derby - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Darlington or Durham (alternatley) - Newcastle (bi hourly to Edinburgh)

At the moment there's a big time penalty for going Newcastle/York - Sheffield/Birmigham via Leeds. Plus the Leeds section is very busy, so there's a fight for seats between the longer distance passengers (who are all diverted via Leeds) and the Leodensians.

At the moment we have two Voyagers between Newcastle and York within about fifteen minutes of each other; its a nonsense.

Running this way would

• Give Edinburgh passengers a faster service to Sheffield/Birmingham
• Allow Leeds - Newcastle to remain with the current hourly TPE service
• Provide more Voyagers to be concentrated on the "core" section of the route
• Speed up the "Newcastle via Doncaster" service as it'd only have one stop between Sheffield and Birmingham

Leeds then loses its’ direct service to Edinburgh and other areas of Scotland though (Except for one northbound EC service in the morning). Other than that, I’m in agreement. The longer distance (to Edinburgh) XC service should have the faster journey time via Doncaster, which also makes it easier to miss out the Durham stop without hugely reducing Durhams’ range of destinations.

 

[tbtc]

Access to the fast lines at Doncaster from the Sheffield lines is by an extensive series of crossovers that would undoubtedly limit the speed XC services could pass through Doncaster non-stop, not to mention that the curve approaching from the south is tight. Routing non-stop XC services via the fast lines would also interfere with more services passing through Doncaster than they already do, as currently the XC trains serving Doncaster are grouped on the western island platform. So realistically, any XC services passing through Doncaster non-stop would have to pass through the platform roads they already call at, which more than likely have a fairly low speed limit on them, and in my experience the northbound Crosscountry service is normally held just south of Doncaster on the curve approaching the station, so in short there would be no time benefit from missing out a stop at Doncaster, but a lot of disadvantages from removing interchange capabilities into a wide range of destinations.

You could run along the line through Pontefract (currently gets two Northern services a day, but offers the fastest route from Sheffield to York)

 

[Zoe]

Remember the 9 car 222s were ordered for an improved Midland Mainline service to Leeds but the SRA decided not to allow this service to run.

 

[87015]

Remember the 9 car 222s were ordered for an improved Midland Mainline service to Leeds but the SRA decided not to allow this service to run.

Which in a large part was due to Virgin XC objecting!!

 

[tbtc]

Leeds then loses its’ direct service to Edinburgh and other areas of Scotland though (Except for one northbound EC service in the morning). Other than that, I’m in agreement. The longer distance (to Edinburgh) XC service should have the faster journey time via Doncaster, which also makes it easier to miss out the Durham stop without hugely reducing Durhams’ range of destinations.

I agree that there are some downsides, no change like this is ever going to please everyone. Edinburgh only ever had three services a day on the ECML before Operation Princess (like the EMT services to Leeds they were southbound early in the morning, and northbound last thing at night for stabling, so little use for a day out), so never had a regular service to Leeds.

Of course, if you try to cut/split any service nowadays people will complain, it's awkward.

 

[sprinterguy]

You could run along the line through Pontefract (currently gets two Northern services a day, but offers the fastest route from Sheffield to York)

Good point, I’ve done that route on a diverted Voyager in the past. I don’t think missing out Doncaster is particularly necessary though when it is already the faster route compared to the Leeds alternative. I’m already very happy with the 3 hour Birmingham to Newcastle journey time offered by this route, and hence Birmingham to York or Leeds in 2 hours by one train an hour to each. It would be good to see all the Crosscountry services a day achieving these times though, and not just a handful of services a day.