Cross Country

[tbtc]

I am surprised First still puts its name to franchises, their bus operations (and arguably some of their trains), have a dismal reputation. Some of their bus divisions are absolutely pathetic anyway.

Stagecoach has never done it with a TOC and Arriva have stopped doing it (apart from ATW which still lingers from previous policy).

Notice how Virgin only introduced their silver livery for their new stock (plus the Pretendolino), so that it was a "step change" from the old stock?

I wondered whether other TOCs should do this - e.g. only use the upgraded name on newer stock

 

[junglejames]

The "worst pieces of Intercity stock ever" are far better than a clapped out cl47 and mk2 coaches. I agree that there are no where near enough Voyagers on XC but they are at least very reliable and very quick.

Only clapped out because virgin never looked after them. However, apart from the reliability, and the 30mph extra speed, voyagers have nowt going for them, and fall down in every other respect compared to a 47 and Mk2s.

Calling voyagers the worst pieces of Intercity stock isnt exagerating anything. Well, i suppose its an exageration calling them Intercity stock, but apart from that, the statement is true. Id still much rather travel in a Mk2.

 

[tbtc]

Only clapped out because virgin never looked after them

They were in a knackered state by the time of privatisation (e.g. before Virgin got their hands on them), but don't let that stop you blaming Virgin

apart from the reliability, and the 30mph extra speed, voyagers have nowt going for them

...and apart from the roads and the drains, the Romans never did anything for us...

 

[WestCoast]

They were in a knackered state by the time of privatisation (e.g. before Virgin got their hands on them), but don't let that stop you blaming Virgin

I agree, you can't blame Virgin for that!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Only clapped out because virgin never looked after them. However, apart from the reliability, and the 30mph extra speed, voyagers have nowt going for them, and fall down in every other respect compared to a 47 and Mk2s.

Calling voyagers the worst pieces of Intercity stock isnt exagerating anything. Well, i suppose its an exageration calling them Intercity stock, but apart from that, the statement is true. Id still much rather travel in a Mk2.

Acceleration is better also. it is an exaggeration because as pointed out here several time reliability is better, and if/when they get extdended they will be fine to operate intercity services especially if one of the extra carriages has a shop in. there not the worst but they need improving

 

[RichmondCommu]

Only clapped out because virgin never looked after them. However, apart from the reliability, and the 30mph extra speed, voyagers have nowt going for them, and fall down in every other respect compared to a 47 and Mk2s.

Calling voyagers the worst pieces of Intercity stock isnt exagerating anything. Well, i suppose its an exageration calling them Intercity stock, but apart from that, the statement is true. Id still much rather travel in a Mk2.

I'm sorry but the mk2 coaches were completely outdated and not fit for purpose. For saying they were only trailers they were damn noisy, you could even hear the sound of the brakes as they slowed down! They might be fine for enthusiasts but for everyone else they were simply not good enough. And manual doors are a pain in the ass.

Before the Voyagers reliability on XC was shocking! Reliability is everything when you're paying good money to travel by train or for that matter any other form of transport. No good comes from waiting on a freezing platform for an hour because the good cl47 has failed AGAIN.

In terms of speed, not only are they quicker than cl47's and mk2's but their acceleration blows the old guard out of the water! In fact even the mighty HST's can't keep up with them! Acceleration is everything on XC routes where there are so many stops.

 

[RichW1]

The only thing I'd say is all that has been mentioned plus I'd still prefer a mark2 by miles even though I would feel there should be something to replace them. Fact is mark 2's were way more comfortable (and had more coaches) than a voyager. Oh yeh and one more crucial point for me (and USED to use XC a lot)....

They're TOO SLOW!!! I know it's not necessarily XC's fault but still, Bristol to Newcastle takes in excess of 5 hours....I can drive it quicker everytime even with moderate traffic. Anyone who uses XC to get to Scotland from anywhere in the south...why? It's overcrowded, and you can drive or fly miles quicker than XC. It's sad because XC is a major rail artery, yet it is terribly slow, innefficient, over-crowded, and even if it wasn't overcrowded...the trains are still crap!

I remember when you could hear your watch tick and the journey was smoother riding. Now, it's juddery, cheap plastic rattling, diesel rumble that's just annoying after a certain amount of time. What happened to Intercity standards of old?

 

[RichmondCommu]

The only thing I'd say is all that has been mentioned plus I'd still prefer a mark2 by miles even though I would feel there should be something to replace them. Fact is mark 2's were way more comfortable (and had more coaches) than a voyager. Oh yeh and one more crucial point for me (and USED to use XC a lot)....

They're TOO SLOW!!! I know it's not necessarily XC's fault but still, Bristol to Newcastle takes in excess of 5 hours....I can drive it quicker everytime even with moderate traffic. Anyone who uses XC to get to Scotland from anywhere in the south...why? It's overcrowded, and you can drive or fly miles quicker than XC. It's sad because XC is a major rail artery, yet it is terribly slow, innefficient, over-crowded, and even if it wasn't overcrowded...the trains are still crap!

I remember when you could hear your watch tick and the journey was smoother riding. Now, it's juddery, cheap plastic rattling, diesel rumble that's just annoying after a certain amount of time. What happened to Intercity standards of old?

I'm sorry but that is not how i remember the mk2's! The ride quality was shocking! And i've certainly never found the Voyagers to be juddery although i admit that you can hear the engines when accelerating! And god do they accelerate well! As an aside, what watch did you wear? It must have been a damn good one.

Cross Country is exactly that! The very nature of the route means that it will stop at a lot of places. Bristol to Newcastle would be much quicker if you ignored Bristol Parkway, Birmingham, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds and York but i dare say a lot of people would be peeved by this. People eh?

 

[Hydro]

I'm sorry but that is not how i remember the mk2's! The ride quality was shocking!

I don't know what Mark 2's you remember but I find them quite nice.

 

[RichW1]

I'm sorry but that is not how i remember the mk2's! The ride quality was shocking! And i've certainly never found the Voyagers to be juddery although i admit that you can hear the engines when accelerating! And god do they accelerate well! As an aside, what watch did you wear? It must have been a damn good one.

Cross Country is exactly that! The very nature of the route means that it will stop at a lot of places. Bristol to Newcastle would be much quicker if you ignored Bristol Parkway, Birmingham, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds and York but i dare say a lot of people would be peeved by this. People eh?

All I'm saying is I found the mark 2's a much quieter and comfortable ride. Yes the voyagers do accelerate well but even with the stops you have suggested, there still is no excuse (not XC's fault though) for a 5 hour journey over that distance. When you get a map of Europe you see just how small (relatively speaking) such a journey is and for it to take 5 hours is terrible when you compare it to the east or west coast main lines.

XC is an Intercity route and I still see little merit in some of the places it stops at I have to say. Long journeys make the choice simple, I'll drive instead of be squashed as well as the journey being slow! In the 21st century it's not satisfactory.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't know what Mark 2's you remember but I find them quite nice.

I remember the shocking noise when the driver applied the brakes. And the draughts. And the hassle when it came to opening the doors. And the frequent train cancelations. Other than that they were world beaters.

 

[Hydro]

I've not experienced any draughts or brake noise on our Mk2F's, then again we run on B5 disc braked bogies.

 

[RichmondCommu]

All I'm saying is I found the mark 2's a much quieter and comfortable ride. Yes the voyagers do accelerate well but even with the stops you have suggested, there still is no excuse (not XC's fault though) for a 5 hour journey over that distance. When you get a map of Europe you see just how small (relatively speaking) such a journey is and for it to take 5 hours is terrible when you compare it to the east or west coast main lines.

XC is an Intercity route and I still see little merit in some of the places it stops at I have to say. Long journeys make the choice simple, I'll drive instead of be squashed as well as the journey being slow! In the 21st century it's not satisfactory.

Trains stop because people wish to use the service and the towns are not exactly small with perhaps the exception of Burton! Given the size of Birmingham NS and Leeds stations, services need to stop for a few minutes to ensure that all passengers make their connection. XC serves a great deal more conurbations than the West or East coast routes do. Surely you can see that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've not experienced any draughts or brake noise on our Mk2F's, then again we run on B5 disc braked bogies.

There was certainly a draught when you passed through the corrider connection! And the door with the window down!

 

[yorkie]

I remember the shocking noise when the driver applied the brakes. And the draughts. And the hassle when it came to opening the doors. And the frequent train cancelations. Other than that they were world beaters.

Nothing wrong with the (mostly ex-Virgin I believe) Mk2s that Cargo-D use for railtours. A far better passenger environment than the awful Voyagers. Early Mk2s are quite different to later Mk2s, the newer ones have aircon and do not have draughts!

Mk2s with disc brakes do not have the noise you describe either. On the other hand Voyagers are very loud, making awful engine noises and they rattle a lot.

As for acceleration, shorten a HST to 5 cars and you'll get the same acceleration. 2+7 HSTs match Voyager timings easily, and when they hired in sets from EC, even 2+9 HSTs matched Voyager timings. Voyagers have an incredibly wasteful power : passenger ratio.

 

[jamesr]

All things equal, I'd much rather travel by train from anywhere up north to the South West, but at the end of the day, I can either pay a lot of money and stand in a doorway for four hours until a seat become available at Exeter, or travel by air, have a seat, and enjoy the chance to have a cup of tea or whatever, while paying a lower price.

XC's problem, for me, is summed up by the fact the trolley on trains to Penzance seems to close somewhere in mid-Devon, around two and a half hours from the destination. The amount of time the catering people need for "staff changeover" at Plymouth is roughly the turnaround time of a space shuttle...

 

[tbtc]

Its a shame that this thread has become another "lets criticise Voyagers" one (who didn't know that they get crowded?).

There are a lot of other issues with Cross Country (the balance between long distance/local passengers, the complications of running across so many TOCs, the balance between serving lots of places and having a stable "core" network) which we could discuss instead.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Its a shame that this thread has become another "lets criticise Voyagers" one (who didn't know that they get crowded?).

There are a lot of other issues with Cross Country (the balance between long distance/local passengers, the complications of running across so many TOCs, the balance between serving lots of places and having a stable "core" network) which we could discuss instead.

agreed last night i came up with some topics where we dont criticise stuff gonna post em later

 

[The Planner]

As for acceleration, shorten a HST to 5 cars and you'll get the same acceleration. 2+7 HSTs match Voyager timings easily, and when they hired in sets from EC, even 2+9 HSTs matched Voyager timings. Voyagers have an incredibly wasteful power : passenger ratio.

A 2+5 might, the rest won't, we've sat in the cabs often enough of both HSTs and Voyagers to know that you can't do it.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I have only been skimming this thread so apologies if this has already been asked/answered, but what are the absolute worst areas for "local" passengers jumping on XC services? I would presume there are plenty around Birmingham, but does anybody have specific examples?

 

[142094]

I have only been skimming this thread so apologies if this has already been asked/answered, but what are the absolute worst areas for "local" passengers jumping on XC services? I would presume there are plenty around Birmingham, but does anybody have specific examples?

Some out of Leeds can be packed during the peaks - mainly York, Wakefield Westgate and Sheffield. Same goes for EC between Leeds and Wakefield.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Nothing wrong with the (mostly ex-Virgin I believe) Mk2s that Cargo-D use for railtours. A far better passenger environment than the awful Voyagers. Early Mk2s are quite different to later Mk2s, the newer ones have aircon and do not have draughts!

Mk2s with disc brakes do not have the noise you describe either. On the other hand Voyagers are very loud, making awful engine noises and they rattle a lot.

As for acceleration, shorten a HST to 5 cars and you'll get the same acceleration. 2+7 HSTs match Voyager timings easily, and when they hired in sets from EC, even 2+9 HSTs matched Voyager timings. Voyagers have an incredibly wasteful power : passenger ratio.

I'm more than aware of the differences between the earlier and latter versions of the mk2's. Even with the later variants there was certainly a draught when you walked into the vestibule area. Mk2's might be good enough for rail tours but not for intercity use.

Do you have any figures to back up your fanciful HST claims? There is no way that a 2+7 HST can keep up with a Voyager, let alone a 2+9 HST! HST's have been wonderful servants to the intercity brand but on XC services Voyagers are far better!

 

[mumrar]

As for acceleration, shorten a HST to 5 cars and you'll get the same acceleration. 2+7 HSTs match Voyager timings easily, and when they hired in sets from EC, even 2+9 HSTs matched Voyager timings. Voyagers have an incredibly wasteful power : passenger ratio.

If power to passenger ratio was so important we should just run 31/4s and Class 20s then, nice and low power.

I would also like to see some concrete proof of your claimed acceleration claims for the HSTs. A 2+9 EC HST set from 30-70mph cannot keep up with the awful acceleration of an XC Turbostar (and the /1s are shagged out!) as I've tested many times with parallel departures from Peterborough towards Birmingham, so they wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance of seeing which way a Voyager went! Matching the timings is one things, matching the real world performance is something totally different. If the XC services didn't interface with so many major hubs and junctions and interchange stations then it the timings would be more realistic to the performance of the Voyagers.

 

[tbtc]

I have only been skimming this thread so apologies if this has already been asked/answered, but what are the absolute worst areas for "local" passengers jumping on XC services? I would presume there are plenty around Birmingham, but does anybody have specific examples?

XC have said that the hourly service between Sheffield and Leeds is, but that was in a document where they were bidding to get more paths through Leeds (diverting half of the Doncaster services that way instead)

Birmingham does get busy, but at least there are more frequent services there. However one of the problems with running the XC franchise is that there are lots of busy flows, meaning its hard to align (supply of) stock with demand.

For example, if you are a London based commuter TOC then you need to make sure your longest trains are serving the main London terminus at morning/afternoon rush hours - no argument there. Whilst there is some demand from Cambridge/ Brighton/ Ipswich/ Basingstoke back towards London in the evening, you'd obviously put your twelve coach trains on the journeys into/out of the capital. On XC, where do you allocate your longer trains (doubled up Voyagers, HSTs)?

 

[mumrar]

The stock problems are made worse by having to diagram units for multiple runs. 170s mainly work two diagrams - bhm-not-cdf-not-bhm, and bhm-lei-bhm-ssd-bhm. The Stansted route has three key flows of passengers, bhm-lei, lei-pbo and pbo-cbg/ssd (lots of people from the north and north east for ssd joining at pbo). It's a nightmare getting the balance right, if you have a train which never has people standing, that means for 70% of the time it'll be half empty or less.

 

[lm321412]

I have only been skimming this thread so apologies if this has already been asked/answered, but what are the absolute worst areas for "local" passengers jumping on XC services? I would presume there are plenty around Birmingham, but does anybody have specific examples?

Well Burton-On-Trent and Tamworth only have XC as their "local to Birmingham" so it is fairly necessary for "local" passengers to jump onto XC services.

Wolverhampton - Birmingham and Birmingham - Coventry flows can be busy but their are so many trains between them two flows that people just jump on the first train.

Would be hard to compare Birmingham considering south of Birmingham the first stop is Cheltenham Spa on a lot of trains.

For me, I reckon it is either Leeds - Sheffield or possibly Edinburgh - Glasgow but I might be barking up the wrong tree there!

 

[MCR247]

The stock problems are made worse by having to diagram units for multiple runs. 170s mainly work two diagrams - bhm-not-cdf-not-bhm, and bhm-lei-bhm-ssd-bhm. The Stansted route has three key flows of passengers, bhm-lei, lei-pbo and pbo-cbg/ssd (lots of people from the north and north east for ssd joining at pbo). It's a nightmare getting the balance right, if you have a train which never has people standing, that means for 70% of the time it'll be half empty or less.

The thing with 170s on NOT-CDF and BHM is that the diagrams are:

NOT - BHM - CDF - BHM - NOT - BHM - NOT etc so that you get 2 can't even diagram 3 cars to Cardiff and 2 cars to BHM

 

[tbtc]

The thing with 170s on NOT-CDF and BHM is that the diagrams are:

NOT - BHM - CDF - BHM - NOT - BHM - NOT etc so that you get 2 can't even diagram 3 cars to Cardiff and 2 cars to BHM

Just my opinion, but I reckon 168s would be great for that service. Four coach DMUs on a route which doesn't need to go over 100mph...

The "ex Central Trains" part of XC seem to get ignored in enthusiast discussions, with people only ever talking about the "ex Virgin" part of XC

 

[junglejames]

HST's have been wonderful servants to the intercity brand but on XC services Voyagers are far better!

LOL. Good joke.
Sorry, you werent being serious were you?!!!

 

[mumrar]

Just my opinion, but I reckon 168s would be great for that service. Four coach DMUs on a route which doesn't need to go over 100mph...

The "ex Central Trains" part of XC seem to get ignored in enthusiast discussions, with people only ever talking about the "ex Virgin" part of XC

4-cars would be excessive, save for commuter times you'd struggle to fill a single vehicle anywhere between New Street and Cardiff. Where 168s are needed for 4-cars would be on the Stansted route.

 

[tbtc]

LOL. Good joke.
Sorry, you werent being serious were you?!!!

HSTs are suited to routes like the ECML, where you can go non stop for 200 miles/ 125 mph for long sections. Try doing that on XC (where you are stopping at a lot of "local" stations)... how many stops are there in 200 miles of an XC service?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

4-cars would be excessive, save for commuter times you'd struggle to fill a single vehicle anywhere between New Street and Cardiff. Where 168s are needed for 4-cars would be on the Stansted route.

Stansteds are busier than the Cardiff - Nottinghams?