Could Weedon Station reopen?

[RT4038]

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out but it's easy to do Long Buckby to London in less than 1h 10.

Compared to a journey on the direct line of about 0h50?

 

[The Planner]

After HS2 has been built, I think it highly unlikely that trains will be running on the existing line via Weedon at such a frequency.


Post HS2 opening, I would expect the train frequency on the existing line via Weedon to be halved, and only perhaps three of those trains per hour to be 'express'. A stop at Weedon would easily be accommodated in this scenario. I would expect the Weedon stop to be inserted in trains that are already stopping at Rugby and Milton Keynes.

From 10tph to 5tph? I like your optimism!

 

[RT4038]

From 10tph to 5tph? I like your optimism!

At more than 5tph I like yours!

 

[43096]

Given that Polesworth (population >8000) doesn’t justify reinstatement of its footbridge and hence station, I’m struggling to see how Weedon (population three rather mangy cows, a Dachshund named Colin and a small hen in its late 40s) is going to justify a brand new station on the West Coast fast line, regardless of HS2. Just not going to happen.

 

[RT4038]

Given that Polesworth (population >8000) doesn’t justify reinstatement of its footbridge and hence station, I’m struggling to see how Weedon (population three rather mangy cows, a Dachshund named Colin and a small hen in its late 40s) is going to justify a brand new station on the West Coast fast line, regardless of HS2. Just not going to happen.

I think any justification would be on the size of the town of Daventry (approx 25,000) approx 4 miles distant, rather than Weedon Village itself.

After HS2 the West Coast fast line will likely no longer be the major express artery that it currently is - a secondary main line at best.

 

[43096]

I think any justification would be on the size of the town of Daventry (approx 25,000) approx 4 miles distant, rather than Weedon Village itself.

After HS2 the West Coast fast line will likely no longer be the major express artery that it currently is - a secondary main line at best.

If it’s really about Daventry, Mr Google says 10mins Daventry to Weedon, 10mins Daventry to Long Buckby and 18mins Daventry to Rugby.

How do you propose all these users in Daventry get to the station? Drive? Bus? In which case if you want a fast train drive/bus to Rugby.

If you think the West Coast fast lines will be a secondary line after HS2, you are deluded. The case for a station at Weedon is still zero regardless.

 

[SargeNpton]

If there's thought to be suitable demand from these towns and villages, I would suggest lobbying the government to require West Midlands Trains to set up a trial service of bus link to Long Buckby. A handful of extra stops there may even be a possibility. Buses could serve 'virtual' stations in the villages. A two year trial and the fitment of some signs and ticket machines onto bus stops, plus finding suitable vehicles would be achievable within months if you can get the subsidy (only a few hundred thousand pounds I should think) agreed.

And we all know how long such bus feeder services are guaranteed to stay in place.

 

[RT4038]

If it’s really about Daventry, Mr Google says 10mins Daventry to Weedon, 10mins Daventry to Long Buckby and 18mins Daventry to Rugby.

How do you propose all these users in Daventry get to the station? Drive? Bus? In which case if you want a fast train drive/bus to Rugby.

If you think the West Coast fast lines will be a secondary line after HS2, you are deluded. The case for a station at Weedon is still zero regardless.

I might be deluded, but I just look at all that spare capacity on those French 'classic' lines after the TGV lines were built.......

 

[43096]

I might be deluded, but I just look at all that spare capacity on those French 'classic' lines after the TGV lines were built.......

That’s France. Not England. They are totally different countries in terms of travel patterns, population spread etc etc. Any comparison of the impact of a high speed line is meaningless.

 

[CW2]

I might be deluded, but I just look at all that spare capacity on those French 'classic' lines after the TGV lines were built.......

(As 43096 replied since I started typing) I'm not convinced that is a valid comparison, given the very different population density, and the service pattern on the densely populated WCML.
Maybe a read of the various papers produced by HS2, Midlands Connect and others on the potential uses of released capacity would be a better starting point than anecdotes from France?

 

[Bald Rick]

Post HS2 opening, I would expect the train frequency on the existing line via Weedon to be halved, and only perhaps three of those trains per hour to be 'express'. A stop at Weedon would easily be accommodated in this scenario. I would expect the Weedon stop to be inserted in trains that are already stopping at Rugby and Milton Keynes.

No doubt frequency on the old line will be reduced, but that doesn’t mean that headways will. Flighting will still be necessary out of Euston because of stopping patterns; I’d expect 3 minute headways to still be the norm. You don’t just look at a particular location in isolation, you have to take it at a route wide perspective.

I might be deluded, but I just look at all that spare capacity on those French 'classic' lines after the TGV lines were built.......

And look at all the new stations they built on the classic lines serving small villages...

 

[The Planner]

At more than 5tph I like yours!

Don't see why, you will likely still have 2tph Birmingham, Trent Valley LNWR style isn't going to stay at 1tph, there will still be an Avanti style train to the North West, possibly 2 and add a couple of Class 4 freights you are up to 7tph easily.

 

[RT4038]

No doubt frequency on the old line will be reduced, but that doesn’t mean that headways will. Flighting will still be necessary out of Euston because of stopping patterns; I’d expect 3 minute headways to still be the norm. You don’t just look at a particular location in isolation, you have to take it at a route wide perspective.



And look at all the new stations they built on the classic lines serving small villages...

Not doubting there may be 3 minute headways, but not every path taken by a long way. On the East Coast line, the station stops at Welwyn North get made in spite of the fast trans (more frequent than likely through Weedon post HS2) along that section.
I don't think the French needed to build any new stations along the classic lines because they had not closed the original ones in the first place (at 'commuting' distance from Paris)

 

[RT4038]

(As 43096 replied since I started typing) I'm not convinced that is a valid comparison, given the very different population density, and the service pattern on the densely populated WCML.
Maybe a read of the various papers produced by HS2, Midlands Connect and others on the potential uses of released capacity would be a better starting point than anecdotes from France?

'Potential' uses of released capacity, quite optimistic. Weedon Station could be one such potential.

 

[andrewgs]

There is an infrequent bus to Long Buckby, but the connections to trains are often poor. IIRC it used to be more frequent, but I suspect the frequency was reduced due to low loading. The few times I've taken it there's been only a handful of people on it, or I've been the only person. Taking a bus to Northampton gets you onto the same train southwards as you'd the train from Long Buckby waits at Northampton for a while. This bus goes round the houses in south Daventry and could have 5 mins cut off its 40 min journey. I'd think it could be better timed to trains too, or ideally have the frequency upped to half hourly.

The station planned near DIRFT could work well going northwards as it's a large employer, so there's fairly frequent buses between Rugby / DIRFT / Daventry.

Weedon would still be a bus/car ride away, so wouldn't be much better than the current options. I'd

 

[RT4038]

Don't see why, you will likely still have 2tph Birmingham, Trent Valley LNWR style isn't going to stay at 1tph, there will still be an Avanti style train to the North West, possibly 2 and add a couple of Class 4 freights you are up to 7tph easily.

Could be, or could be less - we shall see, in due course! Even at 7tph a stop at Weedon per hour could be fitted in.

 

[Starmill]

And we all know how long such bus feeder services are guaranteed to stay in place.

Two years in my proposal. One or three could also work. This is how it's possible to get trial funding.

 

[43096]

Weedon would still be a bus/car ride away, so wouldn't be much better than the current options.

That's the point isn't it?

RT4038 keeps telling us it's about Daventry rather than Weedon, yet it is still a car or bus ride away of 10-20 minutes - the same as it is to Rugby which already has a fast service to Euston. With three stations in a reasonable distance (Rugby, Long Buckby and Northampton) there's no justification for another and any new station would be primarily abstractive from those existing stations.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I'm not sure what would be achieved by re-opening Weedon.
It would give Daventry residents the possibility of travelling by rail - but, as has been pointed out, there are existing railheads at a similar distance. Weedon is less than 3 miles from M1 J15
An objective said to be achieved by re-opening rail lines and stations is economic benefit. Unfortunately for rail, Northamptonshire shows empirically that not only are the two not positively linked they may anecdotally have a negative one.
Northampton (pop about 200,000) has a very poor service Northwards - even the Birmingham service is an all stations one. Wellingborough (pop about 80,000 incl. nearby towns) is shortly having its service to the North limited to Kettering and Corby; travel further North than Leicester will generally require two changes. Corby (61,000) had no railway station for about 50 years; now, it's service to the North is extremely limited.
The other two stations in the County are King's Sutton (who knew that?) and Kettering.
However, for much of the present century, towns in Northamptonshire and the County itself have been places with the biggest increases in population in the country; indeed, there have been years when Northampton's population has increased more than Milton Keynes new City.
South Northamptonshire appears on those Sunday papers' lists of 'best places to live'. It has no railway stations.
So how does this work?
I personally think that rail is the best way to travel for a number of reasons, but I don't know the answer. Is the poor service due to lack of demand, or does it stifle demand in a self-fulfilling prophecy? Does a reasonably affluent area want to use rail? Daventry and Weedon stations closed pre-Beeching around 60 years ago; they've managed fine, it seems; what would induce the residents to even consider using rail?

(populations given are from the 2011 census so an understatement).

P.S. I'm intrigued by a Long Buckby - London time of 1h 10; is this via Rugby and Avanti ? Platform 1 <> 5 is quite a walk...

 

[Bevan Price]

That's the point isn't it?

RT4038 keeps telling us it's about Daventry rather than Weedon, yet it is still a car or bus ride away of 10-20 minutes - the same as it is to Rugby which already has a fast service to Euston. With three stations in a reasonable distance (Rugby, Long Buckby and Northampton) there's no justification for another and any new station would be primarily abstractive from those existing stations.

If Daventry continues to grow, might it be feasible to reinstate the former Weedon to Leamington branch as far as Daventry (maybe with some realignment to avoid any obstructions on the old trackbed) ? No need for a station at Weedon - just extend some Euston - Milton Keynes services to Daventry .....

 

[RT4038]

If Daventry continues to grow, might it be feasible to reinstate the former Weedon to Leamington branch as far as Daventry (maybe with some realignment to avoid any obstructions on the old trackbed) ? No need for a station at Weedon - just extend some Euston - Milton Keynes services to Daventry .....

This seems rather more expensive than an additional station on a (post HS2) secondary main line.

It is counter intuitive for Daventry residents to travel 20 minutes to the North West (Rugby) in order to board a fast train travelling south which will then 10 minutes later pass a point 10 minutes travel from Daventry.

So, to answer the OP's question 'Could Weedon Station re-open' the answer is:

1. Before HS2 is built, there would be no capacity on the line to stop trains at a reopened station. Post HS2 there is unlikely to be any operational reason as to why Weedon station could not be re-opened, or additional infrastructure expense (except the actual station)
2. Funding the construction of a new station, bearing in mind the closeness of other stations in the area, is unlikely to be a national priority. Therefore the funding is likely to have to come from local sources, such as a major development expanding Daventry or Weedon (or both) and/or some other greenfield site close by.

 

[A0]

Northampton (pop about 200,000) has a very poor service Northwards - even the Birmingham service is an all stations one. Wellingborough (pop about 80,000 incl. nearby towns) is shortly having its service to the North limited to Kettering and Corby; travel further North than Leicester will generally require two changes. Corby (61,000) had no railway station for about 50 years; now, it's service to the North is extremely limited.

Not quite on either the Northampton - Birmingham or Wellingboro / Kettering.

On the first it's all stations to Marston Green then non stop to New Street. Though it is inferior to how it was under Silverlink when it was Long Buckby, Rugby, Cov, International and New Street.

On the MML one it will be 1 change from Wellingborough, or direct from Kettering to Nottingham with a change at Leicester for Derby or Sheffield - which in Kettering's case is as today, Wellingborough though is losing out.

 

[Bald Rick]

Before HS2 is built, there would be no capacity on the line to stop trains at a reopened station.

Is correct.

Post HS2 there is unlikely to be any operational reason as to why Weedon station could not be re-opened

Is an assumption, and that needs testing. I can think of several reasons that are likely, including the issues arising from building new platforms on relatively tight curves with maximum levels of cant applied.


There is also a third point, which is that the social economic case for opening a station at Weedon needs testing. Just because something can be built doesn’t mean it should.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not quite on either the Northampton - Birmingham or Wellingboro / Kettering.

On the first it's all stations to Marston Green then non stop to New Street. Though it is inferior to how it was under Silverlink when it was Long Buckby, Rugby, Cov, International and New Street.

On the MML one it will be 1 change from Wellingborough, or direct from Kettering to Nottingham with a change at Leicester for Derby or Sheffield - which in Kettering's case is as today, Wellingborough though is losing out.

Yes, I agree I should have said 'almost every station to New St'. However, the number of calls obviously increases the journey time and this was observation; to cover the 48 1/2 miles takes between 60 and 65 minutes Monday - Friday, an average speed of from 44.77 to 48.5 m.p.h. Bearing in mind the closeness of Northampton to the M1, it's just not competitive with road (A45/M1/M6).

From Wellingborough, Nottingham is perhaps not a great traffic objective; Derby, providing XC connections to the North, is more important - by saying 'generally' I had the latter in mind and hadn't ignored the former. Of course, since the Derby service from Wellingborough ceased, travel to stations in the North served by XC have required 2 changes; in the future, it will require 3.

 

[Bevan Price]

This seems rather more expensive than an additional station on a (post HS2) secondary main line.

It is counter intuitive for Daventry residents to travel 20 minutes to the North West (Rugby) in order to board a fast train travelling south which will then 10 minutes later pass a point 10 minutes travel from Daventry.

Why would they go to/via Rugby?
Yes, there was a branch from Rugby to Leamington, but it was joined by the branch from Weedon - via Daventry.

 

[A0]

Yes, I agree I should have said 'almost every station to New St'. However, the number of calls obviously increases the journey time and this was observation; to cover the 48 1/2 miles takes between 60 and 65 minutes Monday - Friday, an average speed of from 44.77 to 48.5 m.p.h. Bearing in mind the closeness of Northampton to the M1, it's just not competitive with road (A45/M1/M6).

You'll struggle to do Northampton to central Birmingham by road in 60 mins. You can get to the airport / NEC in that time.

The shortest route (A45) is 60mph from Dunchurch and less through Coventry.

Google Maps reckons upwards of an hour by road and that matches my experience.

Where the train loses in terms of competitiveness is you have to get to Northampton station - which depending on where you live in the town can be up to 5 miles away and pay extortionate parking fees to park at the station.

 

[Bald Rick]

You'll struggle to do Northampton to central Birmingham by road in 60 mins. You can get to the airport / NEC in that time.

At peak times I agree with you. At quieter times (and there’s a lot more of them now), I can drive Hertfordshire to Central Birmingham in well under a hour and a half, so Northampton to Central Birmingham woudl be well under an hour.

 

[A0]

At peak times I agree with you. At quieter times (and there’s a lot more of them now), I can drive Hertfordshire to Central Birmingham in well under a hour and a half, so Northampton to Central Birmingham woudl be well under an hour.

You're either lucky or have a heavy right foot ! Google maps reckons St Albans to Birmingham is 1h 50m and that's 95 miles - if you're doing it in sub 90 mins, you're running an average speed of over 60mph and that's pushing it a bit.

 

[Merle Haggard]

My post generated an interesting debate about whether the Northampton-Birmingham rail service is competitive with a car, and it seems that, for a journey to Birmingham city centre it might be (although I allow myself 20 minutes to drive to Northampton station against 10 minutes to the M1 - and I live East of the station).

However, perhaps what's been lost is that I made the point that Birmingham is the only large town or city destination to the North of Northampton that has anything like a competitive service.

To travel to Liverpool, Manchester, the North Wales coast (and, for most time of the day, anywhere north of Warrington) starts with a journey to Milton Keynes to join an Avanti service, and around half an hour after leaving Northampton one can catch a glimpse of the town's landmarks again, as you finally start to head towards your destination. Of course, this extra travelling doesn't come free; ticket prices for all these destinations are the same as, or slightly more expensive than, one fro Milton Keynes.

Even more bizarre is that, at some times of the day in the normal timetable (and, I think, once an hour in the Covid one) NRES
suggest travel via Rugby ('separate tickets may be needed').

Perhaps proposals to build new railway lines around here should be placed on hold until an acceptable service is provided on the ones that already exist (and which have not been starved of investment, apparently).

 

[A0]

My post generated an interesting debate about whether the Northampton-Birmingham rail service is competitive with a car, and it seems that, for a journey to Birmingham city centre it might be (although I allow myself 20 minutes to drive to Northampton station against 10 minutes to the M1 - and I live East of the station).

However, perhaps what's been lost is that I made the point that Birmingham is the only large town or city destination to the North of Northampton that has anything like a competitive service.

To travel to Liverpool, Manchester, the North Wales coast (and, for most time of the day, anywhere north of Warrington) starts with a journey to Milton Keynes to join an Avanti service, and around half an hour after leaving Northampton one can catch a glimpse of the town's landmarks again, as you finally start to head towards your destination. Of course, this extra travelling doesn't come free; ticket prices for all these destinations are the same as, or slightly more expensive than, one fro Milton Keynes.

Even more bizarre is that, at some times of the day in the normal timetable (and, I think, once an hour in the Covid one) NRES
suggest travel via Rugby ('separate tickets may be needed').

Perhaps proposals to build new railway lines around here should be placed on hold until an acceptable service is provided on the ones that already exist (and which have not been starved of investment, apparently).

Snap! Also live east of the town centre and like you, 20 mins to the station but 10 to the M1. I can actually get to Wellingborough station more quickly !

The northbound connectivity for Northampton is poor because of the 'double back' to MK which adds at least 20 mins to journeys to places like Manchester. You can add in that ticket prices are much higher than 'via Long Buckby' ones as well. It wasn't so bad when the Crewe services ran via Northampton, but London Midland in their wisdom decided to reduce Northampton's northbound service provision by 25% (was 4 trains, now 3) and the destinations by 50% - Birmingham only.