Could Weedon Station reopen?

[Bald Rick]

Weedon to Euston would be around 40-45 minutes. Long Buckby to Euston is (when I looked at NRE) 80+.

It may well be that, on balance, there isn't a commercial case but it seems a much sounder idea than many floated on here.

I’m not sure what your definition of ‘sound idea’ is, but if you think this is one I think you need to re-evaluate. Leaving commercial (ie £££) out of it, this would have a negative social case, ie even if it cost nothing, more people would be worse off (collectively) than benefit from it.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I’m not sure what your definition of ‘sound idea’ is, but if you think this is one I think you need to re-evaluate. Leaving commercial (ie £££) out of it, this would have a negative social case, ie even if it cost nothing, more people would be worse off (collectively) than benefit from it.

I agree.

 

[6Gman]

I’m not sure what your definition of ‘sound idea’ is, but if you think this is one I think you need to re-evaluate. Leaving commercial (ie £££) out of it, this would have a negative social case, ie even if it cost nothing, more people would be worse off (collectively) than benefit from it.

I used the comparative not the absolute.

 

[Bald Rick]

I used the comparative not the absolute.

Ah yes, true.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Hopefully no.

Next.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Weedon to Euston would be around 40-45 minutes. Long Buckby to Euston is (when I looked at NRE) 80+.

What stopping pattern and rolling stock assumptions were you making (for Weedon) here, please?

 

[Merle Haggard]

No, the A45 didn't take any of the Peterborough line alignment.

At Northampton it crossed under the A45 then ran south of the A45 alignment all the way to Wellingborough - south of Billing Aquadrome and Great Doddington.

At Wellingborough the A45 crossed the line's formation at roughly Whitworth's mill - the line was heading north into Wellingborough, the A45 is East West.

From Wellingborough the line's formation is north of the A45 running north of the lakes initially and then through the middle of what is now Stanwick Lakes Country park. It then headed north of Ringstead and into Thrapston.

The A 605 which is the Thrapston - Peterborough road did take some at Barnwell and I think around Oundle.

You can check all of this using current OS maps.



Again - a very limited amount. The only bit used was from the bridge under the M1 at what is now Junc 15A to somewhere around Blisworth so about 1 mile.

From Blisworth the SMJ ran north of the current A43 formation skirting north of Tiffield. Having passed through Towcester the railway formation crosses the A43 at right angles on the Towcester by-pass section, just after that the SMJ split with a line which headed north and on through Moreton Pinkney and Byfield to Fenny Compton. The southward route headed to Banbury joining the LNW branch from Buckingham at Cockley Brake Junction, but the SMJ route to that point ran well to the north of the path of the A43 all the way to Banbury. The railway ran north of Abthorpe and Wappenham, through Helmdon and south of Greatworth. In fact the SMJ ran north of Brackley where the current A43 heads south-west to join the M40.


And the reason why Northampton - Peterborough isn't comparable to Bedford - Cambridge, is because Bedford - Cambridge is actually about linking Oxford and Milton Keynes to Cambridge. Bedford-Cambridge is simply the missing link on a route which is otherwise complete. Northampton - Peterborough has completely gone and you're making (what I believe to be an incorrect) assumption that there is a traffic demand between Northampton and Peterborough which the rail network could tap into. The reason the A45 / A605 is busy isn't people travelling between Northampton and Peterborough - it's people connecting onto the A1 - the number of lorries on that bit of road is a giveaway to that. Peterborough relatively speaking is not a key destination for people from Northampton nor vice versa.

I stand corrected about the re-use of trackbeds (and, as an aside, the bit of the A43 that goes under the M1 is on the trackbed of the, briefly electrified, Northampton- London route via Blisworth; my mention of the SMJ was in response to an earlier post). It is the case, however, that the A45, like the railway, follows the river Nene and the road and rail are certainly close enough to achieve similar travel opportunities and I was certainly misled, near Stanwick, by what I thought was an old lineside structure.
My mention of Northampton - Peterborough related to correcting the suggestion earlier that populations along the route east of Wellingborough are insignificant. I wasn't arguing for its re-opening and I'm sorry if I gave that impression - I personally travelled on the line but I have no wish to re-create my youthful adventures on the railways - time moves on and I think the car is far more convenient. The County is just as populous and economically successful as its neighbours but most of its population don't even consider the possibility of using rail, for reasons I tried to explore.
Perhaps I was being too obscure but I was trying to develop the argument that there was as good as, or better, a case based on population and connections for re- opening this line than the others being considered and, bearing in mind in the real world it was a no-hoper (a suggestion you seem to support) where did that leave the others?
My comparison with Bedford-Cambridge was part of this logical argument. By the way, I don't see that this section is the missing link between Oxford and Cambridge - last time I looked over a bridge parapet near Verney Jct there's something around missing there, too!

 

[A0]

By the way, I don't see that this section is the missing link between Oxford and Cambridge - last time I looked over a bridge parapet near Verney Jct there's something around missing there, too!

The formation between Swanbourne and Claydon is intact and technically I don't think the railway there ever closed? Yes there is track missing, probably due to a visit from the metal fairies, but the formation still exists for rail use.

Whereas that's absolutely not the case with Bedford - Sandy - Cambridge.

 

[6Gman]

What stopping pattern and rolling stock assumptions were you making (for Weedon) here, please?

Weedon, MKC, Euston. As for rolling stock, something comparable to Desiro/ Voyager. Since this would need to be post-HS2 things may be different.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Weedon, MKC, Euston. As for rolling stock, something comparable to Desiro/ Voyager. Since this would need to be post-HS2 things may be different.

Voyagers are going from the WCML. LNWR is more likely to stop no chance of Avanti

 

[A0]

Voyagers are going from the WCML. LNWR is more likely to stop no chance of Avanti

And the only reason LNWR are going to stop there is if somebody pulls the communications cord......

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

And the only reason LNWR are going to stop there is if somebody pulls the communications cord......

I can't see LNWR services stopping there

it would have to stop the Crewe to London service via the Trent Valley and they run as 8-car formations.

 

[6Gman]

Voyagers are going from the WCML. LNWR is more likely to stop no chance of Avanti

Which is why I wrote "comparable to".

 

[6Gman]

I can't see LNWR services stopping there

it would have to stop the Crewe to London service via the Trent Valley and they run as 8-car formations.

Well, if it was built (and remember this is the speculative section of this Forum), somebody would stop, or it would be a remarkable waste of money!

 

[Silverlinky]

There were plans for a reopened station at Blisworth as mentioned above, plus too a reopened Roade station, even a Northampton South Parkway at the south end of Hunsbury Hill Tunnel.
None of those plans went anywhere, and any passenger capacity that there may be pre and post HS2 will be swallowed up by the rail distribution depots which are now planned in that area.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There were plans for a reopened station at Blisworth as mentioned above, plus too a reopened Roade station, even a Northampton South Parkway at the south end of Hunsbury Hill Tunnel.
None of those plans went anywhere, and any passenger capacity that there may be pre and post HS2 will be swallowed up by the rail distribution depots which are now planned in that area.

To amplify - a very large housing development between Milton and Blisworth was planned a few years ago and a condition attached to this was the construction of a station (South Parkway). This idea was replaced by the current plans, in the same area, for a rail freight depot which still awaits a decision.
The other proposed freight depot has already received planning authorisation and this will be to the South-east of M1 Junction 15 between the M1 and A508. It presumably involves connections on the up side south of Hunsbury Hill tunnel. Both are very large indeed, but take advantage of Northampton's excellent road connections N-S and E-W
It seems the case that both the main WCML and the Northampton loop are, at the moment, 'full' This might mean, as you suggest, that any surplus capacity on the WCML created by transfer to HS2 would be swallowed by freight traffic to these depots, rather than improved passenger services to Northampton.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

To amplify - a very large housing development between Milton and Blisworth was planned a few years ago and a condition attached to this was the construction of a station (South Parkway). This idea was replaced by the current plans, in the same area, for a rail freight depot which still awaits a decision.
The other proposed freight depot has already received planning authorisation and this will be to the South-east of M1 Junction 15 between the M1 and A508. It presumably involves connections on the up side south of Hunsbury Hill tunnel. Both are very large indeed, but take advantage of Northampton's excellent road connections N-S and E-W
It seems the case that both the main WCML and the Northampton loop are, at the moment, 'full' This might mean, as you suggest, that any surplus capacity on the WCML created by transfer to HS2 would be swallowed by freight traffic to these depots, rather than improved passenger services to Northampton.

Business Case of HS2 phase 1 assumes 4 freight trains in the off peak an hour and these will be used by passenger services in the peak.

 

[cr767055]

I just thought I'd comment to give an update on this thread. I'm taking this up further with the county council as I think this could really benefit the community in Weedon/Daventry etc. Let me know if there's anything I should mention in an email/white paper document. Thanks everyone.

 

[CW2]

Dealing in generalities, the issue you face is to find the correct balance between stopping sufficient trains to makw the station commercially attrctive and financially viable, bearing in mind that every train you stop will effectively prevent another train from running. (The planning headway on this route is 3 minutes, i.e. trains are timed to run a minimum of 3 minutes apart. If you decelerate from maximum speed to zero, stop at the station for under a minute, and accelerate back up to maximum speed you take up two train paths). So the localised benefit of stopping trains at a new Weedon station must be balanced by the extended journey times resulting for passengers already on those trains, and the capacity consumed which prevents other trains from running.
Unfortunately you may find upon further examination that there is no "right" answer. At that point politics intervenes, and it then be comes a judgment call as to whether providing a service at Weedon outweighs the contrary factors. Certainly before HS2 there is no chance of a Weedon station, but selling a new Weedon station as a benefit to Buckinghamshire resulting from the construction of HS2 (releasing capacity on the WCML) might be a winning tactic.

 

[A0]

I just thought I'd comment to give an update on this thread. I'm taking this up further with the county council as I think this could really benefit the community in Weedon/Daventry etc. Let me know if there's anything I should mention in an email/white paper document. Thanks everyone.

Given NCC will no longer exist in the next couple of years, I respectfully suggest you're wasting your time.

They've got enough significant problems to be dealing with - such as being marked as 'special measures' for social work, that theoretical ideas about stations in villages really won't be given any time.

 

[Bald Rick]

I just thought I'd comment to give an update on this thread. I'm taking this up further with the county council as I think this could really benefit the community in Weedon/Daventry etc. Let me know if there's anything I should mention in an email/white paper document. Thanks everyone.

It possibly could benefit the community of Weedon / Daventry, but to the severe detriment to other users of the line. If you do contact Northants, you should point that out, and invite them to find a way around it; as it stands it has no chance of being built.

 

[hst43102]

I don't see any use whatsoever for a station at Weedon, unless the WCML gains slow lines, which is impossible due to the Watford Gap.

To improve rail connectivity in Northamptonshire, how about - rather than reopening old lines - a new line from Roade to Towcester, using the old SMJR trackbed, then Towcester-Aynho Junction, to enable Marylebone - Northampton / Birmingham services via the (much larger than Weedon) towns of Brackley and Towcester? This could also be used for special services to Silverstone on F1 days. Very far-fetched idea, but it would make more sense than Weedon, or Northampton-Peterborough!

 

[RT4038]

It possibly could benefit the community of Weedon / Daventry, but to the severe detriment to other users of the line. If you do contact Northants, you should point that out, and invite them to find a way around it; as it stands it has no chance of being built.

Why would it be to the 'severe detriment' to other users of the line? I accept it would be now, but with HS2 open and a reduction in service on the existing lines, surely it would be possible to schedule an hourly stop on an existing train without 'severe detriment'? This phrase seems hyperbole.
Any additional stop would be of some detriment to longer distance passengers, and this would have to 'traded off' against the possible convenience for the population of Daventry (and of Weedon and surrounding villages). It may well not be justified financially. But hardly the collapse of the railway as you are suggesting.

 

[Hadders]

As @CW2 explained further upthread a call at Weedon would not just slow down that train, it would mean that the following two trains would need to be removed from the timetable. This is because the trains on this section of line are spaced 3 minutes apart, a call at Weedon would cost at least 5 minutes meaning that fewer trains could run, unless you also provide a way for these following trains to overtake (as was done at Milton Keynes around 2006 when the station was remodelled).

It might be that fewer trains can run after HS2 is open however there will be times of the day when all the available paths will need to be used, and that's before you account for any future growth)

I really can't see a station at Weedon being viable.

 

[Bald Rick]

I accept it would be now, but with HS2 open and a reduction in service on the existing lines,

Ok, perhaps ‘severe’ was a bit much. But there won’t be much a reduction in service on the existing lines post HS2. Even if only one train is affected each hour, that is putting 5 minutes into the journey of perhaps 400 people, and that means a lot of people would need to use Weedon, and save a lot of time each, in order to offset that.

Presumably the people using this station don’t all want to go to London, so that suggests the stop would have to go into trains that also call at Milton Keynes and Rugby, if the timetable fits. That is putting a to of time into some journeys.

 

[The Planner]

Where do people from Daventry and Weedon to a much lesser extent want to go? Presumably Northampton/MK/Birmingham at a push? Long Buckby is 8 minutes or 5 miles according to Google, Weedon is the same. Id focus on Long Buckby if it were me.

 

[RT4038]

After HS2 has been built, I think it highly unlikely that trains will be running on the existing line via Weedon at such a frequency.

Ok, perhaps ‘severe’ was a bit much. But there won’t be much a reduction in service on the existing lines post HS2. Even if only one train is affected each hour, that is putting 5 minutes into the journey of perhaps 400 people, and that means a lot of people would need to use Weedon, and save a lot of time each, in order to offset that.

Presumably the people using this station don’t all want to go to London, so that suggests the stop would have to go into trains that also call at Milton Keynes and Rugby, if the timetable fits. That is putting a to of time into some journeys.

Post HS2 opening, I would expect the train frequency on the existing line via Weedon to be halved, and only perhaps three of those trains per hour to be 'express'. A stop at Weedon would easily be accommodated in this scenario. I would expect the Weedon stop to be inserted in trains that are already stopping at Rugby and Milton Keynes.

Just look at what has happened to the 'classic' lines in France once the TGV services have been implemented - capacity galore available. There may well be future growth as parts of Warwckshire, Leicestershire and Staffordshire become increasingly 'commuterland'. However I see no reason why the Weedon/Daventry area cannot be part of this growth too and get a more convenient station than now.

HS 2 will change the landscape of railway use on the line; other factors such as the Covid-19 crisis have also shown that previous traffic forecasts may not be that applicable to the future . Maybe those in the rail industry now need to be considering that current patterns of services may be very different, rather than just poking fun. Even in Northamptonshire County Council's parlous financial state, I am sure the phrase ' When HS2 opens and services on the existing line are reduced....' could be used to answer your question.

 

[Starmill]

If there's thought to be suitable demand from these towns and villages, I would suggest lobbying the government to require West Midlands Trains to set up a trial service of bus link to Long Buckby. A handful of extra stops there may even be a possibility. Buses could serve 'virtual' stations in the villages. A two year trial and the fitment of some signs and ticket machines onto bus stops, plus finding suitable vehicles would be achievable within months if you can get the subsidy (only a few hundred thousand pounds I should think) agreed.

 

[RT4038]

If there's thought to be suitable demand from these towns and villages, I would suggest lobbying the government to require West Midlands Trains to set up a trial service of bus link to Long Buckby. A handful of extra stops there may even be a possibility. Buses could serve 'virtual' stations in the villages. A two year trial and the fitment of some signs and ticket machines onto bus stops, plus finding suitable vehicles would be achievable within months if you can get the subsidy (only a few hundred thousand pounds I should think) agreed.

Indeed. I would expect this, and various other ideas, to form part of a financial assessment.

It may well be that the station building project does not stack up financially. However, contrary to the knee jerk reactions of those on here 'protecting' the existing railway, post HS2, there would not likely be any operational reasons against building a station there, or any additional infrastructure spending requirements (except the actual station, obviously).

 

[Starmill]

Long Buckby to Euston is (when I looked at NRE) 80+.

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out but it's easy to do Long Buckby to London in less than 1h 10.