Could there be a National Minimum Standards for First Class?

[BestWestern]

The OP asked us to discuss intercity services, not commuter ones.

Well, the thread title says "National minimum standards for First Class", so I gathered we were referring to all services.

 

[6Gman]

if people want First Class to include full hot meals and other facilities on each service then you can probably forget about it on services under a hundred metres long,

Unless it's a very slow train I'd find it hard to eat a meal that quickly ...

 

[Mikey C]

The attractiveness of 1st class to me also depends on the the level of attractiveness of Standard on the same train!

For example, I'm not a big fan of the VTWC interior in Standard, but really like the 1st class carriages, with their big comfy seats,better legroom AND proper window alignment. You can usually get some decent Advance tickets prices as well off peak, the free drinks, snack and Wifi are an added incentive which helps narrow the cost difference

 

[Essexman]

I choose first class (if I can justify the extra cost) for the extra space & quieter environment. I'd prefer no free food but a better standard and choice from menu available to be paid for. FGW Travelling Chef & East Coast at seat dining were ideal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The attractiveness of 1st class to me also depends on the the level of attractiveness of Standard on the same train!

I would pay extra to sit in Standard on a 350/1 or /3. It's more comfortable.

 

[whhistle]

Everything else above that is why its called complimentary and if the DfT was to set standards for TOCs to follow then say goodbye to any sort of good value 1st advances as they look to recoup those costs.

Perhaps, but at the same time, someone in charge is telling the train companies they must provide WiFi on board trains, free, for everyone. So someone can dictate standards, to a degree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to insist that anything being *called* First Class had a minimum standard, which to me would be:-

1. Mean seat spacing (back to base) is superior to Standard in that multiple unit (or for LHCS whole train).
2. There is one fewer seat across the width of the coach than in Standard. Where Standard has multiple layouts like on Southern Electrostars, it must be one fewer seat than the Standard layout with the fewest seats across in any coach of the multiple unit (or in the case of LHCS, whole train) concerned, excluding "odd" areas like that around the disabled toilet. (You could define this as something like "except where there are fewer than 12 seats per coach in the superior Standard layout, except side-facing seating, and except where the area of Standard concerned is a temporarily or permanently declassified area of First Class").

The TOCs would be at liberty to provide enhanced areas that were not that, but would have to call them something else other than First Class, e.g. business class, premium standard or whatever.

 

[Hellfire]

I have often seen people with standard class tickets turfed out of the first-class vestibules so first-class passengers can stand there instead.

If you have a Standard Class ticket you are not supposed to be in the First Class vestibules anyway.

 

[al78]

I always read any screen that anyone chooses to use in public.

A few years back, an HR "Partner" was having a long and detailed conversation about a forthcoming disciplinary of a member of her company's staff on an East Coast service to Edinburgh. I minuted the extensive conversation, and was able to identify the individual and his contact details from her screen.

He was quite intrigued when I phoned the individual that evening and had a chat about the conversation I overheard.

Likewise, two members of staff from a firm that were touting for our business were having a long and detailed chat about costings in the business lounge at Heathrow. I was sitting right behind them with my mobile recording the audio. When you know the margins, it's so much easier to negotiate.

Do you carry a dictaphone around in public and record the conversations of everyone around you?

I would question whether there is theoretically any legal ramifications about recording other peoples correspondence, written or spoken, without their permission.

 

[Darandio]

Do you carry a dictaphone around in public and record the conversations of everyone around you?

I would question whether there is theoretically any legal ramifications about recording other peoples correspondence, written or spoken, without their permission.

For me it's that there is more of a creepy vibe about it all.

 

[Amy Worrall]

I'd have something like this:

• Economy: same as standard class is now.
• Premium economy: no particular standards required, just segregated accommodation. So it could just be a carriage with the same seat size but reserved for premium economy passengers. Like what London Midland offer for first class.
• Business class: each seat has a power socket, a table big enough for using a 15" laptop, wifi, and complementary tea/coffee. (You may have to walk to the buffet for the tea/coffee.)
• First class: at-seat service of complementary food and drink. (Could be sandwiches, could be hot food, but has to be more than snacks/biscuits.) Seats have a minimum width and legroom. Guaranteed seat, or you get a partial refund.

On the timetable, each service would advertise which classes it contained. If the minimum provisions were not made (e.g. hot drinks were unavailable on a business class section), then it'd be considered premium economy and anyone with a premium economy ticket could use it. And anyone with a business class ticket would get a refund of the difference. (You'd only get the refund if the train was advertised as having a certain class, then unexpectedly didn't — if you just get on a random local train with a first class ticket, that's your call!)

It'd be possible to advertise "first class available for journeys over 30 minutes" or something, so that people can't expect a full meal when they're only going one stop.

 

[route:oxford]

Do you carry a dictaphone around in public and record the conversations of everyone around you?

Of course not. I've got a mobile telephone - most people aren't even worth listening to.

I would question whether there is theoretically any legal ramifications about recording other peoples correspondence, written or spoken, without their permission.

*Giggles*

"Legal ramifications" - a term used by the clueless. Detail the law that stops anyone from listening, making an audio recording or taking notes in a public space. With the exception of areas relating to national security such as airport screening, you won't find one.

People often make stupid lifestyle choices. I know that the HR drone was subsequently dismissed for gross misconduct for the content of her conversation and the individual's union negotiated an apology and compensation.

 

[Class83]

I don't think a national standard is appropriate, not least as I think first class is a waste of space on non Intercity routes which are <90 mins in duration.

However, there should be some simple rules applied.

On seating 2+1, min35" legroom (essentially what BA call world traveller plus or AA/DL/UA domestic first)

Provide the service advertised. VTWC advertise Evening Meals, however these only apply if the train originates between 5-7pm, however, passengers joining a train at Crewe or Preston at 6pm to/from Glasgow/Euston are unlikely to receive a meal and instead get a sandwich.

Bank Holiday/Weekend Service. As highlighted by the recent VTEC twittergate the service provided on weekends and bank holidays is significantly degraded from that advertised. Better clarity is needed, particularly with regard to the non bank holiday or weekend days between Christmas and new year being designated as such as the operator can't be bothered.

Drinks Service: East Coast are generally good here, but VTWC service is beyond stingy. I'd rather they took £5 off the ticket and had a reasonably priced paid drinks trolley in 1st every 30 mins than the current 'free but hourly if you're lucky' attitude to service on the WC that we get.

 

[Frontera2]

I'm so pleased this thread has been created as this has been a bug bear of mine for years.

Under InterCity, the actual product was the same ( with some exceptions e.g. CrossCountry ) regardless of which route you were on. Whilst the physical trains were sometimes different, what the passenger got for their money generally wasn't.

The "base" InterCity 1st class product, on weekdays, was in most cases;

- comfortable / bigger seat
- Access to 1st class lounges ( where available )
- Steward service
- Complimentary Tea and Coffee

Over and above a tea / coffee and a biscuit any catering above that was chargeable, but of normally decent quality - especially in the restaurant cars.

Personally I would ditch the "free" food on the East and West Coast as the quality isn't great and let's be honest, how many people actually eat it just because it's there rather than actually really wanting a meal.

Then I'd reintroduce paid for restaurant quality meals like GNER offered and so did Anglia in their early days. That way you are offering customers a real choice, and high quality food where it's wanted.

Back in 2006 I was travelling up and down the ECML to Doncaster quite frequently and I occasionally would treat a colleague to a full meal on the way home which was always delicious and well presented and worth every penny.

The current situation for long distance routes is crazy. Let's say I'm a London based business traveller who has to go all over the country for a week.. This would be the experience:

Monday: I'm off to Norwich, I'll get a free cup of tea / coffee and may well have to get it myself from the buffets Wifi generally available.

Tuesday: York beckons and I go up in the early morning with a full English breakfast and free wifi and newspapers, and have a hot meal on the way home.

Wednesday: Sheffield is my destination and given the experience I've had the previous day I skip Breakfast thinking I'll get given one on the train. I get a decent seat and free wifi / tea and coffee but if I want breakfast then I'll have to pay and, on the train I'm on, it's more sausage sandwich than full English. On the way home I'm hungry but again have to pay for my meal as no complimentary food offered.

Thursday: Liverpool here I come, which is the same experience as Tuesday. I'm
Getting confused now as the product offering has been so inconsistent but relaxing on the train on the way home with a complimentary glass of red I forget about it.

Friday: Finishing my week in Plymouth. Nice leather seat ( on an HST at least ) free tea, coffee and very light nibbles and wifi. But what's this? My train has the Pullman so I can treat myself to a really nice meal onboard.

See what I mean? The current situation is crazy so yes absolutely there should be a consistent standard in 1st. Not least because for most of the time the long distance TOCs aren't competing against one another so why does one need to be different?

 

[Abpj17]

A national minimum standard would conflict with the idea that the services should be competing with each other. (Which of course misses the point there is often only one TOC per major route)

I wouldn't set minimum standards per se, but do from the perspective of - if you don't include x, you can't advertise as 1st class etc. But then it gets into whether it's a good or bad thing to have a simple 1st vs. standard class service, or an airline like of business vs. premium economy vs. true 1st class. That can actually just be really confusing.

 

[MrCub]

I've been a very regular customer of Intercity first class over the last 15 or so years. I've seen the standards go up, down, sideways, disappear altogether... I understand the need to squish as many seats on trains as possible now (and the current 'fun size' trains we have on many routes don't help). However my preference is to have 'Standard Class' as it is, 'First Class' in which hot drinks are chucked in, and an on board 'bistro' service which serves decent quality food in decent sized servings, for which you pay. This should be open to all passengers. The CS lounge car is the closest I can currently think of.

The GWR pullman restaurant is lovely but if they 'flattened' it out a little to make it less upmarket, that would be an ideal model. I used to like the GWR Travelling Chef menu; that was excellent quality food and very reasonable prices but it wasn't advertised sufficiently and many passengers probably didn't know it existed.

 

[Mathew S]

Of course not. I've got a mobile telephone - most people aren't even worth listening to.



*Giggles*

"Legal ramifications" - a term used by the clueless. Detail the law that stops anyone from listening, making an audio recording or taking notes in a public space. With the exception of areas relating to national security such as airport screening, you won't find one.

People often make stupid lifestyle choices. I know that the HR drone was subsequently dismissed for gross misconduct for the content of her conversation and the individual's union negotiated an apology and compensation.

This is off topic, but I'll post it because it's important, and there is a lot of rubbish talked around the area of recording in public.

It is (mostly) correct that there is no law stopping you making a recording. However, if the person you are recording can be identified from the recording, or if any other person can, then you risk being caught by data protection legislation. This would likely include even if they could only be identified from the sound of their voice by people who know them.

Finally, whilst you can (again, mostly) record anything you want, to do so in any situation where there is a 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is illegal. So if you are sat opposite two people on a train there's no expectation of privacy, because they can see you and are clearly aware you are there. If, however, you were not visible to them, and they were say in a quiet corner talking quietly to themselves, then the legal situation is far less clear cut.

As a rule of thumb, for your own protection more than anything else, any recording in a public place should be notified to anyone who may be included (why there are signs at Paddington when they're filming there, for example) and if any person or persons are the focus of that filming you should get their explicit permission.

There are, as I've hinted, some exceptions to this to do with national security, and also recording for journalistic purposes of you can show that there's a strong public interest reason for secret recording, but neither of those apply here.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hmm.
Best: Virgin Trains Class 390
Worst: Anything out of London Victoria

 

[GatwickDepress]

Hmm.
Best: Virgin Trains Class 390

Whenever somebody mentions first class on the Pendolinos, I'm always reminded of this very... ambitious early concept drawing. All it needs is a roaring fire (passing 442 perhaps?).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Whenever somebody mentions first class on the Pendolinos, I'm always reminded of this very... ambitious early concept drawing. All it needs is a roaring fire (passing 442 perhaps?).

And a decently sized table. Seriously though that’s awesome! Could a seating layout be possible or would there be too little seats?

 

[cambsy]

I think the first class in the pic is the ill fated intercity 250 project which BR touted in the mid 90s, was planned to do a lot of re alignment of the WCML, use non tilting brand new high speed trains, hence the space in the carriage, think in the end it was deemed too expensive an idea as massive re alignment would have been needed to achieve the desired speeds, back to topic, First Class should have certain standards wider seats, more legroom, quieter, look smarter and more luxurious, complimentary food is good but not essential, I think its a shame that a lot of the new units, Electrostars, 700’s have very little between first and standard, which makes first not worth paying for, unless it means one gets a seat in the peak.

In my opinion, my favourite first class is VTEC, as their leather seats look stylish and make first class stand out from standard a lot more, the Pendo’s dont have quite the same wow factor in first class as the seat material is the same, still nice though, its a bit more nearer to standard, also the complimentary food on both Virgin routes is a big plus, especially when doing a 7 day 1st class ALR as saves a lot of money on food and drink one purchased the ticket, and though the portions may not be much, over the course of a day they fill one up nicely, and I plan my rover mainly round Virgin as there offering is the best.

 

[jayah]

First and foremost your 1st class ticket is just to travel in a better seat with better leg room and better ambiance than standard.

Everything else above that is why its called complimentary and if the DfT was to set standards for TOCs to follow then say goodbye to any sort of good value 1st advances as they look to recoup those costs.

First Class is one area you couldn't really argue it wasn't better when the DfT ran it. Before and after DOR, East Coast has been a sorry affair.

 

[jayah]

Perhaps, but at the same time, someone in charge is telling the train companies they must provide WiFi on board trains, free, for everyone. So someone can dictate standards, to a degree.

Most people have phones. DfT should provide a signal but why should they provide WiFi? Free?

 

[SS4]

Most people have phones. DfT should provide a signal but why should they provide WiFi? Free?

Why shouldn't they? Unlimited data plans are being curtailed and/or hiked in price (the plan I'm on has increased by £20 since I signed up) and data services are becoming more important as they're being used in lieu of calls or texts in many cases. Walk into pretty much any high street store and you have "free" Wifi (free as in beer at least, the cost is signing up with your personal details to be spammed - see an extract from O2's Wifi terms below and note how you may only opt out by snail mail and it's unclear if you may use the service if you use this provision.

https://www.o2wifi.co.uk/about/terms

The Service is only available to users who register with a valid mobile phone number in selected locations...You can continue to use the Service for free as long as you accept our Terms. By accepting these Terms, you shall be enrolled into our marketing programme, and will receive marketing materials from us and carefully selected third parties. Your information is treated in accordance with our our Privacy Policy which can be found at https://www.o2wifi.co.uk/about/privacy. You can opt out these direct marketing communications from us at any time, by writing to The Data Controller, Telefónica UK Limited, 260 Bath Road, Slough, SL1 4DX stating your full name, address, account number and mobile phone number. You can also opt out of marketing communications from a third party, by following instructions which will be specified if and when you receive such communications.

But I digress, I do not believe there could be a national standard for first class because the types of services are too different. You may get away with two - one for intercity journeys and one for commuter style journeys.

Food and drink (except water) not required
Water must be available on request and given out when the temperature is expected to be above 20C
Leg room ought to be at least 1m
At least 50% of seats should have access to a table
All seats should have access to a power socket and a USB port.

The biggest one for me though is a fully enforced quiet zone where the carriage noise level should not exceed 50dB (or around a fridge hum)

 

[TBirdFrank]

Frontera - spot on - The travel has historically been paid for as standard or other class. The level of optional service was always chargeable as an extra until the airline managers got into the railway world and destroyed any sense of ambience along the journey.

Gatwick - interesting - had the designers ever seen a train?? especially one with a "tilt" profile. The best coach I have travelled on in recent years was the lounge car on the way to Fort William but that was twenty years ago now. Interesting that the "best" trains quoted throughout this thread are the now coming thirty year old and more final offerings of our much lamented unified railway.

For me as a class - the second incarnation of the MkIII was the high point. I clearly recall coming home from Kidlington auction one Saturday night and discovering that Mrs TBF was on the following train. I disembarked my stinking uncomfortable Vomiter at Stoke and in from the darkness came Vulcan Heritage and its train all in raspberry ripple, and when I opened the carriage door into the grey subdued hues of a MkIII with those comfortable reclining seats, I wished that Manchester was a lot further away!

 

[jayah]

Why shouldn't they? Unlimited data plans are being curtailed and/or hiked in price (the plan I'm on has increased by £20 since I signed up)....

Just to clarify for "whhistle" and anyone else who seems to have read my thoughts negatively in a way that wasn't my intention - my thoughts on this are only mine and there isn't a right answer or a wrong one. I also think that minimum First Class standards are a good idea:

As most people already have phone and data packages in these austere times I really would question why the taxpayer is giving away probably £m in free WiFi data every year?

From my experience the bundled free data goes up by a factor of 3x every couple of years if you shop round and if people want to stream TV or Youtube onto the train I think they should pay for their own data. Without some serious access restrictions you will inevitably find a tiny minority of people are using a lot of data - you probably wouldn't tolerate such imbalances in the amount of free food consumed!

Various download services are offered e.g. West Coast already - with hospitals full of patients waiting on trolleys it doesn't seem to best use of taxpayers money. Granted unfortunately there is an arms race atm with everybody falling over each other to give away more and more free data but the usage in shopping centres and on buses is probably minimal compared to a long distance train.

 

[AlterEgo]

if people want to stream TV or Youtube onto the train I think they should pay for their own data. Without some serious access restrictions you will inevitably find a tiny minority of people are using a lot of data

But most TOCs do restrict streaming sites, download mirrors and Youtube.

Various download services are offered e.g. West Coast already - with hospitals full of patients waiting on trolleys it doesn't seem to best use of taxpayers money

How much taxpayer money do you think is being spent on providing free WiFi?

Who is paying for the upgrades to train WiFi? Is it the DfT, or is it the franchised TOC?

 

[Andy1066]

I agree VT are great.
Cross country are great but depends what route it varies dramatically .

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree VT are great.
Cross country are great but depends what route it varies dramatically .

Not the term I would use to describe XC. It's lackadaisical in the extreme. A third rate regional express with a severe rolling stock shortage.

 

[Andy1066]

I enjoy xc BristolTemple Meads to Birmingham NS always great service .
However cardiff - Nottingham I would actually say , some cases standard class is cleaner and has working sockets and exactly the same service.