Could there be a National Minimum Standards for First Class?

[Bletchleyite]

This.

The food is almost always better quality and better presented when there’s a bill to be placed in front of you at the end.

Complimentary offers are usually pretty weak.

The best short haul food selection in the air at the moment has to be Ryanair, and the coffee is excellent. When you get it inclusive it's usually mediocre, and you're paying for it whether you want it or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although Silver Standard back in the days of Intercity wasn't ever very well taken up.

Silver Standard had it the wrong way round - it was Standard seating with First Class service. What I want (and Eurostar seems to be doing fairly well with) is First Class seating with Standard service, i.e. simply to be able to pay a reasonable uplift for more space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First and foremost your 1st class ticket is just to travel in a better seat with better leg room and better ambiance than standard.

Everything else above that is why its called complimentary and if the DfT was to set standards for TOCs to follow then say goodbye to any sort of good value 1st advances as they look to recoup those costs.

I'm not entirely clear why a TOC is allowed to promote food as part of their offering then call it "complimentary" and not partially refund for non-provision if it is absent (though IME VT do throw RTVs at you if you complain of missing 1st food). True complimentary items should be omitted from the advertising. Time for a law on the matter perhaps?

But if we were going for a national minimum standard, I'd say "no less seat spacing[1], on average, than Standard in the same train, and one fewer seat across the width of the train than in Standard" as a reasonable definition. That'd get rid of the sham 1st provided by the likes of GTR (Southern/GatEx), Southeastern and LNR.

[1] Not pitch, backrest to back/backrest to centre of table distance. LNR's so called 1st has less legroom than Std because the spacing is the same but the seats are thicker.

 

[BluePenguin]

I'm not entirely clear why a TOC is allowed to promote food as part of their offering then call it "complimentary" and not partially refund for non-provision if it is absent (though IME VT do throw RTVs at you if you complain of missing 1st food). True complimentary items should be omitted from the advertising. Time for a law on the matter perhaps?

But if we were going for a national minimum standard, I'd say "no less seat spacing[1], on average, than Standard in the same train, and one fewer seat across the width of the train than in Standard" as a reasonable definition. That'd get rid of the sham 1st provided by the likes of GTR (Southern/GatEx), Southeastern and LNR.

[1] Not pitch, backrest to back/backrest to centre of table distance. LNR's so called 1st has less legroom than Std because the spacing is the same but the seats are thicker.

It certainly is a mystery I agree with you. It is very sneaky of a TOC to use high definition photos of professionally prepared food in their advertising to encourage people to buy first class tickets. Not only will they probably not get any food, if they do the meal will look nowhere near as good as the one advertised. This definitely needs changing to rid this outrageous mis-advertising!

This whole sham first class needs putting a stop to. It costs TOCs absolutely nothing yet they rake in a huge profit from it.

Say I have a meeting and have an early morning train to catch. To save time getting ready I choose first class and expect to have breakfast on the train....but nobody comes round. Can I complain that I was left feeling hungry?

 

[richa2002]

For most of the history of UK railways, food and drink in First Class was chargeable - the benefit was more personal space, and a better chance of a seat on busy trains. Even GNER (often praised as one of the best privatised TOCs) charged for food in First Class, and plenty of people used it.

Bang on. By far the best way of doing it too as what you received in the past when charged for it was far superior and actually worth having compared to today's complimentaries. Would rather have choice and higher quality than the "be grateful for what you get" attitude of complimentaries.

 

[Tetchytyke]

his.

The food is almost always better quality and better presented when there’s a bill to be placed in front of you at the end.

Complimentary offers are usually pretty weak.

It depends on what market you're trying to attract, really.

If you're just wanting to fill up excess capacity because you over-specified first class (hi Virgin West Coast) and price it accordingly then yes, a bigger seat and a mug of coffee will be enough of a temptation.

If you're wanting to sell a premium product and charge premium prices then, no, good quality complimentaries need to be part of the offer. Even BA offer free food and drink, as well as access to the Heathrow lounge with all its goodies, on domestic business class tickets. These are usually priced competitively with first class train travel.

A big part of the problem is that TOCs don't know what they want first class to be.

 

[All Line Rover]

I'm not entirely clear why a TOC is allowed to promote food as part of their offering then call it "complimentary" and not partially refund for non-provision if it is absent (though IME VT do throw RTVs at you if you complain of missing 1st food). True complimentary items should be omitted from the advertising. Time for a law on the matter perhaps?

The food is complimentary in the sense that it is not charged for at the point of provision. Just as on-board toilets are 'complimentary'.

The advertised food still forms part of the overall package that is being purchased when buying a first class ticket.

 

[All Line Rover]

Can I complain that I was left feeling hungry?

Of course you can complain. Bill the TOC for the cost of a breakfast at your destination and the time you wasted having to eat it.

 

[tbtc]

that's what happens when you fragment a national system.

...whereas BR presumably had exactly the same level of free food/ First Class lounges/ drinks and other perks on every service with First Class (at any time of the day/ week), with the same quality of seats too...

...this is a great thread since we now get to argue about privatisation and the purely subjective preferences for seating plus some snobbery/class stuff about the rights and wrongs of better provision for people who can afford to pay more - everyone can join in!

(personally speaking, if First Class pays for itself then keep it on existing services and consider introducing it to new ones, there can be different levels of First Class for different people, but if people want First Class to include full hot meals and other facilities on each service then you can probably forget about it on services under a hundred metres long, and if you insist on First Class passengers having access to a First Class lounge then you can probably forget about it on most routes that don't serve London)

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're wanting to sell a premium product and charge premium prices then, no, good quality complimentaries need to be part of the offer. Even BA offer free food and drink, as well as access to the Heathrow lounge with all its goodies, on domestic business class tickets. These are usually priced competitively with first class train travel.

For clarity, those complimentaries are the ONLY benefits of domestic business class; the aircraft themselves are single-class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A big part of the problem is that TOCs don't know what they want first class to be.

It's interesting looking at the "from scratch" class systems on things like LEO Express and Italo. UK TOCs I suspect have First and Standard because you just have First and Standard, and any real thinking about why probably took place 100 years ago or so.

 

[BluePenguin]

Of course you can complain. Bill the TOC for the cost of a breakfast at your destination and the time you wasted having to eat it.

They can look forward to an invoice of £7.99 for the breakfast plus £1 per minute it took me eat it all.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For clarity, those complimentaries are the ONLY benefits of domestic business class; the aircraft themselves are single-class.

Not quite: the middle seat is blocked on business class rows, which are at the front of the plane. So you get more space and you get to sit at the front, as well as the freebies.

 

[Mojo]

For clarity, those complimentaries are the ONLY benefits of domestic business class; the aircraft themselves are single-class.

There are plenty of other benefits such as first to board and first to alight, lounge access (except LCY non-New York flights), blocked middle seat (except LCY flights), hold baggage allowance, premium security, hot towel, etc...

 

[twpsaesneg]

Very much depends on your level in the business and the advantages of working on the move. My hourly rate means it's worth sending me 1st as I can work on the train, which normally mostly offsets the cost (certainly on anything over 90mins). There isn't the room to spread out laptop, papers etc in standard, so it ends up as dead paid time.

Less fussed about food to be honest, although free tea/coffee is OK.

Your're lucky... I'm expected to work whilst travelling in Standard class, as is everyone else at all levels in the large international consultancy I work for. My peers in other similar companies all have the same policies on 1st class travel.

Maybe I should get a bigger laptop!

 

[anti-pacer]

When I did my 1st Class ALR last year, I was amazed at the difference in First Class complimentary offerings on different TOC's.

VTEC were by far the best. Attentive service, alcohol included after 11am weekdays, and even the weekend service was plentiful, from my experience. VTWC was good too, although I only did one run with them, from Holyhead to London on a breakfast service. Couldn't complain.

GWR was, well, OK, as was XC but nowhere near as good as the above. Seats on GWR were great though. The worst by far was AGA. Shocking! It didn't even look like First Class and the offerings were minimal - a can of Coke for example was a drink they didn't include.

As for the TOC's on routes in the South East. Pointless! Southern for example, the seats on one train I travelled were no different in First than the ones in Standard, save for whatever you call those headrest cloth things. I didn't travel on TPE at all, and the only Scotrail services I used were Standard Class only, and my one journey on EMT in First Class, purposely to have their breakfast, didn't go to plan as their kitchen had a fault.

A real treat was the ATW "Gerald" train. 3 course meal with a glass of orange (alcohol extra). The food was nice, and well presented, and the staff were great. The sleeper services weren't bad either, with Serco having the edge.

I would welcome the level of service I experienced on VTEC on ALL 'InterCity' TOC's, and it being scrapped completely on South East TOC's.

 

[Alan2603]

First and foremost your 1st class ticket is just to travel in a better seat with better leg room and better ambiance than standard.

Surely the First-Class ticket only authorises one to travel in 'First Class Accommodation' – not the right to a seat (First Class or otherwise) unless one has a reservation. Try travelling on a VTEC leaving Kings Cross on a Friday afternoon/evening and unless one has a booked seat, one could well be standing (with ones First Class ticket in hand).

I have often seen people with standard class tickets turfed out of the first-class vestibules so first-class passengers can stand there instead.

 

[ag51ruk]

It was Virgin West Coast. Yes hot meals are advertised on the website as one of the many perks of buying a first class ticket. Paying £30 - £70 extra is enough to buy a 3 course meal for a few people in a restaurant

You mentioned in your original post that you travelled during the weekend. This is the page from the VT website that describes the complimentary service, it doesn't mention a hot meal

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/experience/first-class/weekend-travel

 

[BluePenguin]

You mentioned in your original post that you travelled during the weekend. This is the page from the VT website that describes the complimentary service, it doesn't mention a hot meal

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/experience/first-class/weekend-travel

I wasn't expecting a hot meal at the weekend. The £2 extra I paid reflected that and I wasn't too bothered really. What I was trying to say was had I been travelling on a week day and paid £30 - £70 extra instead then I would have been disappointed not to have had a meal as the website does mention one being available.

 

[mpthomson]

Your're lucky... I'm expected to work whilst travelling in Standard class, as is everyone else at all levels in the large international consultancy I work for. My peers in other similar companies all have the same policies on 1st class travel.

Maybe I should get a bigger laptop!

The nature of my work means that some of our emails contain confidential information relating to individuals, so standard class isn't an option. Even in 1st there are times when it's not possible to use laptops due to this, but we're expected to use common sense and vastly increases the chance of us being able to do something.

 

[swaldman]

But who wants to pay double the price or more for a different seat layout that is slightly more comfortable to sit on and then buy over priced food?

Me. I mean, obviously I wouldn't buy the food, I'd take my own. But my main reason for paying for first class (on the few occasions that it's affordable, and on long enough trips that I care) is the guarantee of a table seat and enough room to work. Standard at half occupancy is just fine, and one can spend 4-7 hours on a train being productive or relaxing. Standard, when full, turns that time into a wasted day.

 

[BestWestern]

If a standard were to be set, I would have:-
Larger, reclining seats
A minimum of two FC Hosts per service
2+1 seating
First Class Lounges at major stations i.e. King's Cross, Birmingham New Street
Soft refreshments, including hot drinks and snacks, served at seat by a dedicated Host
WiFi Internet
Hot meals available, either at a charge to the customer or complementary

Even on a GTR Electrostar with about 8 First Class seats?!

 

[BestWestern]

It certainly is a mystery I agree with you. It is very sneaky of a TOC to use high definition photos of professionally prepared food in their advertising to encourage people to buy first class tickets. Not only will they probably not get any food, if they do the meal will look nowhere near as good as the one advertised. This definitely needs changing to rid this outrageous mis-advertising!

This whole sham first class needs putting a stop to. It costs TOCs absolutely nothing yet they rake in a huge profit from it.

Say I have a meeting and have an early morning train to catch. To save time getting ready I choose first class and expect to have breakfast on the train....but nobody comes round. Can I complain that I was left feeling hungry?

Isn't it precisely this sort of issue that the Consumer Rights Act or whatever it's called is moving to address on the railway? Along with missed arrival times, broken wifi and so on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even on a GTR Electrostar with about 8 First Class seats?!

Applying a proper standard would at least mean that sham First Class like that (and on 350s) could be abolished.

 

[route:oxford]

The nature of my work means that some of our emails contain confidential information relating to individuals, so standard class isn't an option. Even in 1st there are times when it's not possible to use laptops due to this, but we're expected to use common sense and vastly increases the chance of us being able to do something.

I always read any screen that anyone chooses to use in public.

A few years back, an HR "Partner" was having a long and detailed conversation about a forthcoming disciplinary of a member of her company's staff on an East Coast service to Edinburgh. I minuted the extensive conversation, and was able to identify the individual and his contact details from her screen.

He was quite intrigued when I phoned the individual that evening and had a chat about the conversation I overheard.

Likewise, two members of staff from a firm that were touting for our business were having a long and detailed chat about costings in the business lounge at Heathrow. I was sitting right behind them with my mobile recording the audio. When you know the margins, it's so much easier to negotiate.

 

[route:oxford]

A minimum of two FC Hosts per service.

There are fewer than 16 First Class seats on many services - isn't 2 hosts a bit excessive?

 

[sheff1]

The thread title asks "Could there be National Minimum Standards for First Class ?" Of course there could.

Should there be National Minimum Standards for First Class ? In my view, yes.

Will such standards ever be set ? No chance.

 

[MG11]

Even on a GTR Electrostar with about 8 First Class seats?!

The OP asked us to discuss intercity services, not commuter ones.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think we should adopt the Austrian first class. Where you pay 50% of the cost of the ticket, you get 2+1 leather seats and a first class host.
The trains have a chef onboard, and anyone can buy the food, in first class the food is served by the host.

 

[yorkie]

They can look forward to an invoice of £7.99 for the breakfast plus £1 per minute it took me eat it all.

The first cost may well be reasonable (see also: Now that consumer law applies, what happens if complimentary catering is unavailable?), but the latter is less likely (especially not at a rate of £60 per hour, which equates to a salary of over £100k)