Could Norfolk be better connected?

[DarloRich]

does this beg the question that Norwich is poorly connected?

To which century

 

[edwin_m]

Norwich and Norfolk do pretty well for train service compared with Lincoln and Lincolnshire.

 

[Class 170101]

There is an argument that the Norwich to Liverpool service shouldn't serve local flows eg Alfreton.

If infrastructure was no problem I would have a Norwich to Birmingham service via Peterborough and Leicester and a Cambridge to the North West Service via Grantham and Sheffield in addition to what we have today.

In the interim better connections at Ely between the service groups could give 'two' trains per hour between Norwich and Peterborough.

 

[eastdyke]

Norwich and Norfolk do pretty well for train service compared with Lincoln and Lincolnshire.

To which century

Time was Norwich (and Lincoln for that matter) built walls to keep people OUT.

 

[306024]

Norwich and Norfolk do pretty well for train service compared with Lincoln and Lincolnshire.

Very much so. It wasn't always like that though. Pro-active thinking has seen the (re)introduction of the Norwich-Cambridge service and increased use of the Sheringham line. The London service every 30 minutes is fine when the infrastructure holds up, given the capacity constraints on the GEML. Add the improvements in Suffolk and Cambridgeshire which now sees hourly East Suffolk Line trains thanks to Beccles loop (a simple scheme on paper but which took a lot of hard work) and hourly Ipswich - Cambridge services, and East Anglia is well served by its train service.

 

[PrinceBishop]

Here's a new timetable for Norfolk, Cambridgeshire and Leicestershire:

Current frequency: Norwich, Thetford, Ely, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham, Ilkeston, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Sheffield (operated by Crosscountry)
Current frequency: Sheffield, Dore, Chinley, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Irlam, Birchwood, Warrington Central, Widnes, Hough Green, Hunt's Cross, Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Lime Street (operated by Northern Railway)

There may be an argument for splitting the Norwich - Liverpool service and I believe it is an argument that has been had in other threads so I won't get into it here. However, if it was to be split, it would have to be at Nottingham, not Sheffield. If you split the service at Sheffield you would lose the only direct rail service between the North West and the East Midlands. These two regions are already badly connected by road and rail, making those connections worse would go down very badly with passengers and local politicians alike.

I note you've added several stops into the Sheffield to Liverpool service, meaning Sheffield to Liverpool would effectively be downgraded to a local stopping service and Manchester loses one of its 'fast' services to both Liverpool and Sheffield.

 

[pitdiver]

There is, Britvic own the Robinsons brand and it is essentially a soft drinks plant at Carrow (Norwich). The plant was state of the art/ground breaking when it went in, must be around 30 years ago now as 'Project Apollo'.
But once made soft drinks are basically a distribution business and as pointed out up/down thread Norwich is in a nicely isolated part of the country roads wise.
Soft drink production will be transferred to other 'Britvic' sites at Beckton, Rugby and Leeds which are all, in theory, better road connected sites.

Subject to what happens with any remaining Colmans production, it is likely that the substantial brownfield site will be re-developed with flats/homes which would at least be better placed with respect to the Station than all the current development of the Norwich periphery.

There is probably more to Britvic than meets the eye, I cant remember the last time I bought one of their own drinks / mixers or any of the other licensed ones listed on their wikipedia page with the exception of the odd Pepsi - they're old fashioned and not very good. Consumer tastes and choice are changing.

j20 is made by Britvic, take it from me they are extremely popular. ( I work in a large supermarket and we sell plenty of them)

 

[ashworth]

I musty agree here, having done Sheffield - Norwich, it takes ages, stopping at several unnecessary places like Alfreton and cannot be described as 'tolerable' speed-wise, for while no individual section is slow, it is an intercity- length route without intercity speeds. Rail to Norwich is like the roads, slow, flat, long and dull (and don't get me started on the A17!)

I know that many on here would probably disagree but I don’t consider a stop at Alfreton as being unnecessary. Although the station is situated outside of the town it has a very wide catchment area of quite sizeable towns on the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire border. Whenever I have used the Norwich to Liverpool train there have always been quite a significant number of passengers getting on and off the train at Alfreton. You only have to look at the number of cars in the car park to see how well the station is used in addition to its good bus links. I suppose you could also say that the stops at Widnes or even Thetrford are also unnecessary.

It’s a difficult route with slow journey times as it crosses a number of major routes and has to negotiate slow routes through major cities. It does crawl through Manchester, progress from Stockport to Hazel Grove can be very slow, reversal in Shefffield puts a good 15+ minutes onto timings, slow speeds through Nottingham and on to Grantham plus reversal at Ely all make it a slow route. Also speeds restrictions on the Hope Valley and between Ely and Norwich would not allow 185’s or 222’s to keep even to the 158 timings.

 

[eastdyke]

j20 is made by Britvic, take it from me they are extremely popular. ( I work in a large supermarket and we sell plenty of them)

I don't think that I said that Britvic do not make popular products.
Further I think you will find that j2O is not 'made' at Carrow (Norwich).

 

[chubs]

I said that Britvic do not make popular products.

I wasn't aware they made j20 but thought that was quite old fashioned as well, it was sold in pubs for non drinkers wasn't it? I cant see the appeal in a supermarket, there are much better soft drinks and fruit based drinks to be had there.

Reversal at Ely and Sheffield can be as quick as 5 mins if everything is running smoothly and to time (they wait a bit longer if early). Splitting / joining at Nottingham takes longer.

 

[backontrack]

I note you've added several stops into the Sheffield to Liverpool service, meaning Sheffield to Liverpool would effectively be downgraded to a local stopping service and Manchester loses one of its 'fast' services to both Liverpool and Sheffield.

Those stops are already served by some EMT services, but not all. That frequency would remain the same.

You're right about Nottingham-Manchester. Could you, however, CrossCountry the entire thing from Liverpool to Norwich and still make a difference to speed? It's already quicker to drive than it is to get the train.

 

[backontrack]

Norwich and Norfolk do pretty well for train service compared with Lincoln and Lincolnshire.

All of Lincolnshire's rail stations are connected to either Nottingham, Doncaster or Peterborough (well, except for the Barton Line stations). The problem is low frequency.

But maybe this is a question for another thread...

 

[Starmill]

This doesn't fit the enthusiasts narrative on here whenever this route gets discussed, but it's the truth

So that makes the train 'fast' does it? Because it's well used? What does that have to do with it? Are you claiming that this means that the catering is great too? As I said, it is reasonably well used for cross-Nottignham journeys because it's direct. If Norfolk to Northern England were the main market it would be quicker via Doncaster than via Nottingham. The time saved going via London or via Doncaster can be significant. It's anything but fast.

 

[bspahh]

One issue for the connections from East Anglia through Peterborough are the ticket prices, particularly off peak.

I live in Ely. To travel on a Sunday to March (16 minutes) costs £9.70 for an off peak day return. Advanced singles today are £4.60 each way. Instead I could go to Cambridge, which is a similar journey distance and journey time, but it costs £3 for a day return, or £2 with a Network card.

For £18.50, I can get an Anglia Plus Day Ranger for a day's unlimited travel to Cambridge, Norwich, Ipswich, Felixstowe, Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth and Sheringham.

For £17.55 with a Network card, I can go to London and have a Zone 1-6 Travel card.

Going West, £17.80 gets me a day return to Stamford, 3 stops and 50 minutes down the line.

 

[eastdyke]

One issue for the connections from East Anglia through Peterborough are the ticket prices, particularly off peak.
I live in Ely. To travel on a Sunday to March (16 minutes) costs £9.70 for an off peak day return. Advanced singles today are £4.60 each way. Instead I could go to Cambridge, which is a similar journey distance and journey time, but it costs £3 for a day return, or £2 with a Network card.
For £18.50, I can get an Anglia Plus Day Ranger for a day's unlimited travel to Cambridge, Norwich, Ipswich, Felixstowe, Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth and Sheringham.
For £17.55 with a Network card, I can go to London and have a Zone 1-6 Travel card.
Going West, £17.80 gets me a day return to Stamford, 3 stops and 50 minutes down the line.

I agree that the Ely-March fare is well OTT.
Strangely (historically I guess) the fare setter is GA. GA offer no advance fares for that (or on any trains to Peterborough, not even Ipswich-Peterborough) and only runs to Peterborough every 2 hours . The advance fares to March are only on XC.
Now if only that Anglia Plus was 'Plus Peterborough' .....

 

[70014IronDuke]

Norwich as a whole does, I think, have good services to quite a variety of places. The problem can lie in reaching more than one small part of the city and its surroundings by rail. There are quite considerable stretches of suburbia as well as the city centre and office developments which are not convenient for Norwich station, and there could be a much better focus on integrated transport, if more stations prove unable to open (or be reopened).

Has there ever been, or would today's geographic/population justify, a SW Norwich 'parkway' station somewhere in the region of Cringleford-Keswick, or near the Holiday Inn/Ipswich Rd crosses the Breckland Line?

 

[chubs]

So that makes the train 'fast' does it? Because it's well used? What does that have to do with it? Are you claiming that this means that the catering is great too? As I said, it is reasonably well used for cross-Nottignham journeys because it's direct. If Norfolk to Northern England were the main market it would be quicker via Doncaster than via Nottingham. The time saved going via London or via Doncaster can be significant. It's anything but fast.

It isn't fast at all, its downright slow. I didn't know it had catering, It's always been too full for a trolley to reach me after Peterborough. I don't really care about on train catering either, as a whole (not just on this route) I think it is an outdated product when you can get much higher quality catering at stations. Maybe some people like a nasty instant coffee or poorly made tea on a long journey like that, but I suspect many don't either and it seems to be backed up by the continued decline of catering on trains.

But a lot of people from Norwich do use it to go direct to Manchester / Sheffield / Nottingham, as when I do it myself I personally see them doing it too.

Norwich to Manchester wouldn't be that much quicker via London, and for the sake of an extra 30-60 minutes it's quite nice to just get a good advance and travel direct knowing you have a booked seat and don't have to lug bags across the underground. Obviously the route serves a lot of stations, and in some cases there are much quicker options.

 

[eastdyke]

Has there ever been, or would today's geographic/population justify, a SW Norwich 'parkway' station somewhere in the region of Cringleford-Keswick, or near the Holiday Inn/Ipswich Rd crosses the Breckland Line?

Somewhere here?
(The geography, courtesy the valleys of Rivers Yare and Tas, gives rise to some 'challenges'.)
© Copyright Evelyn Simak and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
The Harford Rail Viaduct viewed from Stoke Road
The Harford rail viaduct carries the Norwich to London (Liverpool Street) mainline over the Ely line (seen in the foreground) and the River Yare. It has six brick arches and was constructed in 1848-49.

 

[fowler9]

How would people serve Norwich better and why would it deserve it?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Somewhere here?
(The geography, courtesy the valleys of Rivers Yare and Tas, gives rise to some 'challenges'.)
© Copyright Evelyn Simak and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
The Harford Rail Viaduct viewed from Stoke Road
The Harford rail viaduct carries the Norwich to London (Liverpool Street) mainline over the Ely line (seen in the foreground) and the River Yare. It has six brick arches and was constructed in 1848-49.
View attachment 40592

Nice piccie - but no. Further west by about half a mile - somewhere near where the Ipswich Rd corsses the line, or (more likely) another mile or so further west, towards where the A47 ring road crosses the line.
I'm only posing the question - I don't know the area.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I know that many on here would probably disagree but I don’t consider a stop at Alfreton as being unnecessary. Although the station is situated outside of the town it has a very wide catchment area of quite sizeable towns on the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire border. Whenever I have used the Norwich to Liverpool train there have always been quite a significant number of passengers getting on and off the train at Alfreton. You only have to look at the number of cars in the car park to see how well the station is used in addition to its good bus links. I suppose you could also say that the stops at Widnes or even Thetrford are also unnecessary....

I agree. Alfreton is probably not of any interest to 99% of passengers leavng Norwich on an EMT train. But there again, Thetford will not be of interest to 99.9% of people on the train from Liverpool or even Man Picc. Nor March, nor even Ely. The line is made up of smaller towns (and even villages) between a bunch of major cities and towns. But all those smaller towns are important in their local area. And Alfreton is pretty important to local folks wanting to go to Nottingham, Chesterfield/Sheffield and Manchester. It's kind of an accident that BR then decided to create a Liverpool-Norwich service by combining all these routes into one service.

 

[Class 170101]

One thing to remember that prior to the Norwich to Cambridge service operating, Central Trains called at Wymondham, Attleborough and Thetford and occasionally at the other stations between Norwich and Ely.

I would argue that the train should only stop at Ely, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Warrington Central, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. However certain trains provide other functions dependant upon the time of day of operation.

 

[eastdyke]

Nice piccie - but no. Further west by about half a mile - somewhere near where the Ipswich Rd corsses the line, or (more likely) another mile or so further west, towards where the A47 ring road crosses the line.
I'm only posing the question - I don't know the area.

Ah - sorry I thought you were suggesting a Parkway station for the Ipswich/London route for longer distance travellers.
There are already bus based P&R's, near to where you suggest, at both Harford - Ipswich Road junction A140 and at Thickthorn junction A11 both with A47 Norwich Southern Bypass, direct to the City Centre. I don't see how a train based P&R would be any better when Norwich station is half mile plus from the City Centre. At peak times already full trains would become impossible. I am not a proponent of trains for short distance P&R situations

 

[anti-pacer]

Given there seems to be a reasonable amount of traffic between Norfolk and the North West, how about the following, in addition to the current Norwich-Liverpool service?

Norwich-Thetford-Ely-Peterborough-Grantham-Nottingham-Alfreton-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Stockport-Man Picc-Man Ox R-Warrington C-LSP-Liverpool Lime Street (hourly)

Norwich-Ely-Peterborough-Loughborough-EM Parkway-Derby-Stoke-Crewe-Runcorn-Liverpool Lime Street (hourly)

The advantages:

* Half-hourly service between Norwich-Peterborough, providing better connections to the ECML and points north.
* A more 'Express' service end to end
* Direct trains to Loughborough (a university town), EM Parkway (for the airport), Derby, Stoke and Crewe (for the WCML and North Wales services)
* Faster journey times to Peterborough, ideal for passengers travelling to Yorkshire, the North East and Scotland
* Faster journey times to Manchester, with one same platform change in Stoke.
* Faster journey times to Liverpool from the East of England
* Thetford and Alfreton retaining their service
* Better connectivity between Derby, Stoke, Crewe and Liverpool
* Eases pressure on existing services

Of course this is only an idea, and no doubt has capacity restraints, which is why I would run it to Liverpool after Stoke rather than Manchester as I'm sure the line through Macclesfield is probably running at capacity anyway.

 

[Bevan Price]

Unfortunately, our crazy franchise system likes everything in nice, relatively simple packages, and deters innovation or sensible changes. I think one idea would be for Norwich services to run alternately to Liverpool and to Birmingham, coupled with similar services from Stansted/Cambridge. In addition, timings should involve good connections at Ely (or even combine portions between Ely & Peterbotough.). Trains should all be longer - 3 coaches minimum.

That would provide through services to more destinations, albeit every 2 hours, and plus simple connections on the alternate hours.

 

[fowler9]

That would be great. Take a service from a busy part of Liverpool to improve things in a busy village in Norfolk.

 

[anti-pacer]

Unfortunately, our crazy franchise system likes everything in nice, relatively simple packages, and deters innovation or sensible changes. I think one idea would be for Norwich services to run alternately to Liverpool and to Birmingham, coupled with similar services from Stansted/Cambridge. In addition, timings should involve good connections at Ely (or even combine portions between Ely & Peterbotough.). Trains should all be longer - 3 coaches minimum.

That would provide through services to more destinations, albeit every 2 hours, and plus simple connections on the alternate hours.

I suppose one idea could be to combine my idea with a Birmingham service, splitting at Peterborough. The Liverpool via Derby service could leave first as it would be non-stop to Loughborough, then have the Birmingham portion running the same pattern after Peterborough as the ex-Stansted service.

 

[anti-pacer]

That would be great. Take a service from a busy part of Liverpool to improve things in a busy village in Norfolk.

I'm not sure if that was referring to me, but my idea would double your frequency and additionally give you a through service to Stoke, Derby, EM Parkway and Loughborough.

 

[B&I]

Given there seems to be a reasonable amount of traffic between Norfolk and the North West, how about the following, in addition to the current Norwich-Liverpool service?

Norwich-Thetford-Ely-Peterborough-Grantham-Nottingham-Alfreton-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Stockport-Man Picc-Man Ox R-Warrington C-LSP-Liverpool Lime Street (hourly)

Norwich-Ely-Peterborough-Loughborough-EM Parkway-Derby-Stoke-Crewe-Runcorn-Liverpool Lime Street (hourly)

The advantages:

* Half-hourly service between Norwich-Peterborough, providing better connections to the ECML and points north.
* A more 'Express' service end to end
* Direct trains to Loughborough (a university town), EM Parkway (for the airport), Derby, Stoke and Crewe (for the WCML and North Wales services)
* Faster journey times to Peterborough, ideal for passengers travelling to Yorkshire, the North East and Scotland
* Faster journey times to Manchester, with one same platform change in Stoke.
* Faster journey times to Liverpool from the East of England
* Thetford and Alfreton retaining their service
* Better connectivity between Derby, Stoke, Crewe and Liverpool
* Eases pressure on existing services

Of course this is only an idea, and no doubt has capacity restraints, which is why I would run it to Liverpool after Stoke rather than Manchester as I'm sure the line through Macclesfield is probably running at capacity anyway.

What about running all the Liverpool services via the existing route to Nottingham, then via Derby, Stoke and Crewe (supplementing, not absorbing, the EM Derby-Crewe stopper, with maybe a stop at Uttoxeter). If space allowed, 2 of the 4 cars could detach at Stoke for Manchester.

Then have another Norwich service branching off at Nottingham to Sheffield, Leeds and Bradford (again supplementing, rather than replacing, stoppers over the same route(s)). And a Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Hull service to pick up that flow?

 

[eastdyke]

That would be great. Take a service from a busy part of Liverpool to improve things in a busy village in Norfolk.

Turning that around, even the (River) Amazon has to start somewhere.
Actually the river analogy is quite good, it has been said that the water in the Thames has been through a number of people before reaching the sea. Each seat on a Norwich-Liverpool will have had a number of users along the way. Very few passengers actually travel anything like the full distance (source ex MD EMT), but it is very very well used at times and in parts - anything from rammed to sparse. The fact that most are 2 car Norwich-Nottingham then 4 car Nottingham-Liverpool reflects usage, but that usage would be much less without the smaller places along the way.