Could Norfolk be better connected?

[anti-pacer]

Given Britvic are now pulling out of Norwich, does this beg the question that Norwich is poorly connected? I think road-wise it definitely is, but as this is a rail forum, let's concentrate on rail.

I appreciate there is a GA thread, but rolling stock aside, do Norwich and Norfolk need better links to London, the Midlands, and the North?

 

[chubs]

I don't think rail wise it is that poorly connected. 30 minute frequent to London of peak.

60 minute frequency to Liverpool via Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Peterborough etc. These trains are packed as well, with many people travelling as far as Manchester.

60 minute frequency to Cambridge via Ely (for Birmingham and Stansted).

I feel it's served pretty well for a city of it's size.

The new Stansted direct services will be a very welcome addition.

OK these are all from Norwich, but the smaller towns just don't have the demand to justify direct services and the change at Norwich is very easy.

I don't feel the road is that bad either now the final section of the A11 is sorted out, although admittedly the other routes can get jammed.

 

[chubs]

There is probably more to Britvic than meets the eye, I cant remember the last time I bought one of their own drinks / mixers or any of the other licensed ones listed on their wikipedia page with the exception of the odd Pepsi - they're old fashioned and not very good. Consumer tastes and choice are changing.

 

[anti-pacer]

I don't think rail wise it is that poorly connected. 30 minute frequent to London of peak.

60 minute frequency to Liverpool via Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Peterborough etc. These trains are packed as well, with many people travelling as far as Manchester.

60 minute frequency to Cambridge via Ely (for Birmingham and Stansted).

I feel it's served pretty well for a city of it's size.

The new Stansted direct services will be a very welcome addition.

OK these are all from Norwich, but the smaller towns just don't have the demand to justify direct services and the change at Norwich is very easy.

I don't feel the road is that bad either now the final section of the A11 is sorted out, although admittedly the other routes can get jammed.

I believe the London services will be increased to every 20 minutes which I find surprising, given far bigger cities have a lower frequency (e.g. Liverpool, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bristol, Cardiff).

Roads aren't great though unless you're heading towards Cambridge, Stansted and London. Getting to the the North is a pain, and even to Ipswich.

 

[6Gman]

Given Britvic are now pulling out of Norwich, does this beg the question that Norwich is poorly connected? I think road-wise it definitely is, but as this is a rail forum, let's concentrate on rail.

I appreciate there is a GA thread, but rolling stock aside, do Norwich and Norfolk need better links to London, the Midlands, and the North?

A direct, fast, and spacious service to Birmingham would be helpful - but unlikely.

(Incidentally, no question is being begged. One of the English language's most misused expressions.)

 

[anti-pacer]

A direct, fast, and spacious service to Birmingham would be helpful - but unlikely.

(Incidentally, no question is being begged. One of the English language's most misused expressions.)

I suppose in an ideal world, a service running as follows would be good, although I'm sure capacity would prohibit such a suggestion;

Norwich-Thetford-Ely-Peterborough-Leicester-Nuneaton-Birmingham NS-Cheltenham-Bristol Parkway-Bristol TM (2 hourly)
Norwich-Thetford-Ely-Peterborough-Leicester-Nuneaton-Birmingham NS-Cheltenham-Gloucester-Newport-Cardiff Central (2 hourly)

 

[tsr]

Norwich as a whole does, I think, have good services to quite a variety of places. The problem can lie in reaching more than one small part of the city and its surroundings by rail. There are quite considerable stretches of suburbia as well as the city centre and office developments which are not convenient for Norwich station, and there could be a much better focus on integrated transport, if more stations prove unable to open (or be reopened).

 

[anti-pacer]

Norwich as a whole does, I think, have good services to quite a variety of places. The problem can lie in reaching more than one small part of the city and its surroundings by rail. There are quite considerable stretches of suburbia as well as the city centre and office developments which are not convenient for Norwich station, and there could be a much better focus on integrated transport, if more stations prove unable to open (or be reopened).

Personally I don't think Norwich is big enough to have a LRT system, but yes, the Bitterne Line could have a suburban station, and maybe one on the Breckland Line to the south west.

 

[MG11]

I think the Norwich to Liverpool service is a great asset, running at high speeds, with catering and now even USB ports. I really hope that Norwich remains on the route, because it gives Norfolk a great connection to other parts of the country.
In an ideal world, there would also be a direct service to Birmingham and the south west, but these are only one change away and served by express services, so Norfolk doesn't do bad.

 

[30907]

Norwich as a whole does, I think, have good services to quite a variety of places. The problem can lie in reaching more than one small part of the city and its surroundings by rail. There are quite considerable stretches of suburbia as well as the city centre and office developments which are not convenient for Norwich station, and there could be a much better focus on integrated transport, if more stations prove unable to open (or be reopened).

The basic problem is surely one of geography? Apart from Felixstowe for international container traffic, Cambridge for hi-tech and of course London, everywhere of commercial significance is too far away. The A1 by road or Peterborough by rail is a couple of hours - and Peterborough (apologies to my wife who hails from there) is only the start.

As others have already said, the train service is pretty decent for frequency and tolerable for speed.

 

[MG11]

I believe the London services will be increased to every 20 minutes which I find surprising, given far bigger cities have a lower frequency (e.g. Liverpool, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bristol, Cardiff).

Roads aren't great though unless you're heading towards Cambridge, Stansted and London. Getting to the the North is a pain, and even to Ipswich.

The main reason such a high frequency wouldn't be possible elsewhere is pathing. Virgin London services intertwine with equally high-priority CrossCountry and TransPennine Express services, Leeds services along the ECML also have to share the track with express Scotland and North East services, so there isn't room (and probably rolling stock) to increase capacity there. Norwich to London on the otherhand, doesn't have to compete with as many high-priority services for paths. There are just the EMT expresses on the approach to Norwich, then it's mainly just commuter services along the line in to London.

 

[tsr]

The basic problem is surely one of geography? Apart from Felixstowe for international container traffic, Cambridge for hi-tech and of course London, everywhere of commercial significance is too far away. The A1 by road or Peterborough by rail is a couple of hours - and Peterborough (apologies to my wife who hails from there) is only the start.

As others have already said, the train service is pretty decent for frequency and tolerable for speed.

I understand your point, but faster links into the whole of the Norwich urban / suburban area would make it much more attractive for longer-distance rail passengers to make their way to the city, in much the same way that many long-distance trains to (say) London, Birmingham or Edinburgh serve multiple stations within the city after a longer non-stop run from outside its confines, in order to allow people to disperse to whichever area they want.

Norwich's current single terminus is not the only solution which has ever been deemed necessary over the course of railway history; the city itself has had various tram and railway systems which could do with a serious look at being reinstated if the city is to grow much larger. I think investment might be hard to justify without some expansion - but my gut feeling is that this is preferable to expanding other towns in the area.

 

[TheEdge]

Norwich as a whole does, I think, have good services to quite a variety of places. The problem can lie in reaching more than one small part of the city and its surroundings by rail. There are quite considerable stretches of suburbia as well as the city centre and office developments which are not convenient for Norwich station, and there could be a much better focus on integrated transport, if more stations prove unable to open (or be reopened).

The issue there is there is no real solution. Norwich station is located outside of the city centre, the Cambridge and London lines skirt south of the city and head into the countryside with no real suitable place for a new station, Trowse being pretty pointless. The only real easy ways of making anywhere in Norwich better rail connected would be reopening Whitlingham, a station at Poswick or possibly Dussindale.

The site of Norwich Victoria isn't a great closer to the city centre than Thorpe is.

 

[route101]

Has there ever been an Intercity service from Norwich apart from the London Services ?

 

[eastdyke]

There is probably more to Britvic than meets the eye, I cant remember the last time I bought one of their own drinks / mixers or any of the other licensed ones listed on their wikipedia page with the exception of the odd Pepsi - they're old fashioned and not very good. Consumer tastes and choice are changing.

There is, Britvic own the Robinsons brand and it is essentially a soft drinks plant at Carrow (Norwich). The plant was state of the art/ground breaking when it went in, must be around 30 years ago now as 'Project Apollo'.
But once made soft drinks are basically a distribution business and as pointed out up/down thread Norwich is in a nicely isolated part of the country roads wise.
Soft drink production will be transferred to other 'Britvic' sites at Beckton, Rugby and Leeds which are all, in theory, better road connected sites.

Subject to what happens with any remaining Colmans production, it is likely that the substantial brownfield site will be re-developed with flats/homes which would at least be better placed with respect to the Station than all the current development of the Norwich periphery.

 

[eastdyke]

The basic problem is surely one of geography? Apart from Felixstowe for international container traffic, Cambridge for hi-tech and of course London, everywhere of commercial significance is too far away. The A1 by road or Peterborough by rail is a couple of hours - and Peterborough (apologies to my wife who hails from there) is only the start.

As others have already said, the train service is pretty decent for frequency and tolerable for speed.

Norwich - Peterborough is 90 minutes (plus or minus 2/3 mins). Of that around 15 minutes is spent getting in and out of Ely.
When Network Rail and all the other 'stakeholders' get Ely area and the junctions/level crossings/signalling/freight route sorted out there is the opportunity for Ely to be missed by EMT when GA are able to run 2 tph Norwich to Cambridge (hopefully with one extended to Stansted).
But of course that is seemingly rather a long way into the future.
With a less constricted Ely there would be the possibility of running bi-modes Norwich - London via Ely too. Continued development of Wymondham/Attleborough/Thetford/Brandon will create the demand.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I could have been someone
Well so could anyone

...what does one want from one's provincial backwaters ? Connectivity ? Splendid Isolation ? Sometimes that improved connectivity destroys the tranquil remoteness that people often crave. If it's happy the way it is leave it alone.

 

[Busaholic]

Apologies in advance, but couldn't resist the thought that Britvic might be a suitable name for a new political party led by Jacob Rees-Mogg.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Apologies in advance, but couldn't resist the thought that Britvic might be a suitable name for a new political party led by Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Most people's Moggs are happy to sit contented in front of the fire

 

[Starmill]

I think the Norwich to Liverpool service is a great asset, running at high speeds, with catering and now even USB ports.

High speeds? What gives you that idea? The stock is limited to 90mph. It's quicker to travel via London for journeys from Norwich to Manchester or Liverpool. It's often quicker to change at Peterborough and Doncaster or York to reach West and South Yorkshire from Norwich. While there are a miltitude of cross-Nottingham journeys, I am skeptical about the number that are to and from Norwich. Some people may value a direct train over a quicker journey though - but this is not 'running at high speeds'. The catering is also not at all special. It's expensive and limited in range. TransPennine Express and Scotrail have achieved far better results with onboard catering based from a trolley.

 

[Hadders]

In a former job I was a field based employee and one of the areas I covered was Norfolk. Getting to Norwich itself was generally ok, the A11 is reasonable now it's dual carriageway. The problem is east of Norwich, doesn't matter if you drive or take the train it's pretty painful.

North Norfolk's also problematic, decent rail service to Kings Lynn but driving's a nightmare, particularly getting past the Hardwick Roundabout (which was where a site I frequently had to visit was located). Rail's no good if you need to get to Hunstanton, Fakenham or Wells-next-the-Sea and the roads are painful.

 

[lordbusiness]

The EMT services always seem pretty well patronised leaving and arriving NRW although how many actually make the full journey I wouldn't know. It' very popular for connections to the ECML being the only direct NRW-PBO service.
I'e always wondered why EMT haven' tried to run into CBG and lose the NRW stretch as I would suspect CBG to the northwest would be more lucrative with the Universities, can only guess it's paths into CBG? This would then allow GA to run NRW-PBO?
It will also be interesting to see what effect the introduction of the NRW-SSD services have on CrossCountry trains as these always seem busy and a lot of passengers going NRW-SSD change at Ely/CBG to pick these up.

 

[daodao]

The EMT services always seem pretty well patronised leaving and arriving NRW although how many actually make the full journey I wouldn't know. It' very popular for connections to the ECML being the only direct NRW-PBO service.
I'e always wondered why EMT haven' tried to run into CBG and lose the NRW stretch as I would suspect CBG to the northwest would be more lucrative with the Universities, can only guess it's paths into CBG? This would then allow GA to run NRW-PBO?
It will also be interesting to see what effect the introduction of the NRW-SSD services have on CrossCountry trains as these always seem busy and a lot of passengers going NRW-SSD change at Ely/CBG to pick these up.

The Stansted-Birmingham route should be transferred to EMT (from XC), along with the Cleethorpes-M/c route (from TPE). It would simplify interworking and permit a greater variety of destinations from the places served, including restoration of through trains from Norwich to Birmingham.

 

[306024]

I'e always wondered why EMT haven' tried to run into CBG and lose the NRW stretch as I would suspect CBG to the northwest would be more lucrative with the Universities, can only guess it's paths into CBG? This would then allow GA to run NRW-PBO?

This was suggested by the DfT a few years ago and some investigations were made both commercially and operationally. Nothing came of it, obviously. More paths through Ely North Jn wouldn’t have helped the cause.

When the last part of the A11 was made a dual carriageway Norwich became easier to access from the West, but the A140 between the A14 junction near Stowmarket and Norwich is single carriageway for the most part (short dual carriageway near Diss), and limited to 50 mph max through the whole of Suffolk. Not a road you want to be stuck behind a tractor on.

 

[DanTrain]

High speeds? What gives you that idea? The stock is limited to 90mph. It's quicker to travel via London for journeys from Norwich to Manchester or Liverpool. It's often quicker to change at Peterborough and Doncaster or York to reach West and South Yorkshire from Norwich. While there are a miltitude of cross-Nottingham journeys, I am skeptical about the number that are to and from Norwich. Some people may value a direct train over a quicker journey though - but this is not 'running at high speeds'. The catering is also not at all special. It's expensive and limited in range. TransPennine Express and Scotrail have achieved far better results with onboard catering based from a trolley.

I musty agree here, having done Sheffield - Norwich, it takes ages, stopping at several unnecessary places like Alfreton and cannot be described as 'tolerable' speed-wise, for while no individual section is slow, it is an intercity- length route without intercity speeds. Rail to Norwich is like the roads, slow, flat, long and dull (and don't get me started on the A17!)

 

[chubs]

High speeds? It's quicker to travel via London for journeys from Norwich to Manchester or Liverpool.

I am skeptical about the number that are to and from Norwich.

Marginally. 2 hours to London, then across London, then out again.

I have used the direct service from Norwich to Manchester a number of times, the train is always packed, I've often alighted in Manchester with a number of people I boarded in Norwich with.

This doesn't fit the enthusiasts narrative on here whenever this route gets discussed, but it's the truth.

 

[chubs]

The EMT services always seem pretty well patronised leaving and arriving NRW although how many actually make the full journey I wouldn't know. It' very popular for connections to the ECML being the only direct NRW-PBO service.
I'e always wondered why EMT haven' tried to run into CBG and lose the NRW stretch as I would suspect CBG to the northwest would be more lucrative with the Universities, can only guess it's paths into CBG? This would then allow GA to run NRW-PBO?
It will also be interesting to see what effect the introduction of the NRW-SSD services have on CrossCountry trains as these always seem busy and a lot of passengers going NRW-SSD change at Ely/CBG to pick these up.

The Stansted-Birmingham route should be transferred to EMT (from XC), along with the Cleethorpes-M/c route (from TPE). It would simplify interworking and permit a greater variety of destinations from the places served, including restoration of through trains from Norwich to Birmingham.

Trains do very well when leaving Norwich. I hope they don't take it away and make it a Cambridge service.

To be honest I'm fine with the current routes as they are now, a change at Ely isn't the end of the world and keeps things streamlined rather than having both routes interworked and swapping end points. They are prone to delays as it is, with the extensive routes they cover across so many different parts of the network. The only significant improvement I want ASAP is the direct Stansted service.

 

[Ianno87]

Marginally. 2 hours to London, then across London, then out again.

I have used the direct service from Norwich to Manchester a number of times, the train is always packed, I've often alighted in Manchester with a number of people I boarded in Norwich with.

This doesn't fit the enthusiasts narrative on here whenever this route gets discussed, but it's the truth.

"Marginally" can be up to around an hour or so, particularly if you just miss the hourly service.

I live in Cambridge and often head to the North West, so the Norwich-Liverpool ought to be my service of choice, but it seldom is due to other routes being faster (either via Euston, or via VTEC and Donny/Leeds), and/or offering a better Advance fare. And there's the fact that 3 and a half hours is a looooong time to sit on a 158. I sometimes prefer the change of train and leg stretch via another route (though the 158 is great for getting work done - if my laptop battery holds out!).

I do believe the L-N service ideally needs something of a reinvention to get the end to end journey time down, and potentially serve Cambridge again due to the recent growth there.

Post-HS2, I'd also image there'd be an appetite for taking a portion of one of the King's Cross-Cambridge-Ely fasts through to Norwich, to give a fast direct-ish link onto HS2 at Euston from Norwich, potentially far, far quicker between Norwich and the North West than any direct service ever could be.

 

[backontrack]

Here's a new timetable for Norfolk, Cambridgeshire and Leicestershire:

1tph: Leicester, South Wigston, Narborough, Hinckley, Nuneaton, Coleshill Pkwy, Birmingham (operated by WMR)
1tph: Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, Ely, Cambridge, Audley End, Stansted Airport (operated by EMT)*
1tph: Norwich, Wymondham, Attleborough, Thetford, Brandon, Ely, March, Whittlesea, Peterborough, Leicester, Hinckley, Nuneaton, Coleshill Pkwy, Birmingham New Street (operated by CrossCountry)

Current frequency: Norwich, Thetford, Ely, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Dore, Chinley, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Birchwood, Warrington Central, Widnes, Liverpool South Pkwy, Liverpool Lime St (operated by...I'll leave you lot to fight over this one)

*If Peterborough-Ely can't do 3tph in each direction (especially if you want to reopen to Wisbech), then there's always the newly-reopened Varsity Line for services to be diverted down...riiiiiiiight?

 

[Alfie1014]

I believe the London services will be increased to every 20 minutes which I find surprising, given far bigger cities have a lower frequency (e.g. Liverpool, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bristol, Cardiff).

The obligation is for three trains per hour London to Norwich by May 2019. The third therefore is almost certainly to be an extension of the current Ipswich terminator, as a twenty minute frequency is difficult to path for a number of reasons on the GEML; the frieght paths between Stratford and Ipswich are in the main roughly 30 mins apart and whilst the Southend Vic service is roughly every twenty minutes now the requirement from May 2019 is for this to go to four per hour. The reality is that services have to to be flighted to make use of a very busy stretch of track and to accomodate the mix of traffic. From May 2020 four trains an hour are required between London and Ipswich (back to FGE and Anglia railways days) and this with the almost hourly Colchester to Pboro service (see below) means there will be two extra passenger services each hour between Colchester and Ipswich.

The third commited train per hour between Ely and Pboro will be the Colchester to Peterboro service which from May 2020 becomes hourly, though only 13 out of 16 per weekday are required to run south of Ipswich. There is no obligation for two trains per hour Norwich to Cambridge, only hourly Norwich to Stansted Airport, though again by 2019 all will be a minimum of 3 (or 4 cars).