Could Norfolk be better connected?

[anti-pacer]

What about running all the Liverpool services via the existing route to Nottingham, then via Derby, Stoke and Crewe, then have another Norwich service branching off at Nottingham to Sheffield, Leeds and Bradford, and a Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Hull service to pick up that flow?

That would unfortunately leave Nottingham and Manchester without a direct link.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Unfortunately, our crazy franchise system likes everything in nice, relatively simple packages, and deters innovation or sensible changes. I think one idea would be for Norwich services to run alternately to Liverpool and to Birmingham, coupled with similar services from Stansted/Cambridge. In addition, timings should involve good connections at Ely (or even combine portions between Ely & Peterbotough.). Trains should all be longer - 3 coaches minimum.

That would provide through services to more destinations, albeit every 2 hours, and plus simple connections on the alternate hours.

Which is, of course, what a unified BR did - only not with such frequent services - in the past (as I'm certain you know). They could do this because, as you say, they didn't need or want to package everything up so a franchise operator had a 'cheap' and easy option in terms of the route knowledge needed at the various depots - which were also packaged up.

 

[306024]

How about leaving it alone? Seems the crayons are out with no real knowledge of the business, only guesswork and supposition. The two car at the Norwich end can be busy, but at the end if the day it is a two car. That’s not that many bums on seats to justify doubling the service (and the cost), even if it could be timetabled.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Ah - sorry I thought you were suggesting a Parkway station for the Ipswich/London route for longer distance travellers.
There are already bus based P&R's, near to where you suggest, at both Harford - Ipswich Road junction A140 and at Thickthorn junction A11 both with A47 Norwich Southern Bypass, direct to the City Centre. I don't see how a train based P&R would be any better when Norwich station is half mile plus from the City Centre. At peak times already full trains would become impossible. I am not a proponent of trains for short distance P&R situations

heh heh heh! No, you've still got me wrong - or I've not made myself clear enough. I'm not proposing an outer station to attract traffic into Norwich - not a park and ride. I said a "parkway". I'm positing that such a station might make train more accessible and attractive to people within parts of Norwich that want to get OUT! And would find such a station more useful than Norwich (central).

 

[anti-pacer]

How about leaving it alone? Seems the crayons are out with no real knowledge of the business, only guesswork and supposition. The two car at the Norwich end can be busy, but at the end if the day it is a two car. That’s not that many bums on seats to justify doubling the service (and the cost), even if it could be timetabled.

Because the line is too slow.

 

[backontrack]

That would unfortunately leave Nottingham and Manchester without a direct link.

What's the problem with that? One's in Lancashire...and as for the other, I will leave you with the words of Milton Jones:

I was walking through town the other day, and I saw a woman with a sash which read 'MISS NOTTINGHAM'. I thought: 'That's a good idea.'

 

[eastdyke]

heh heh heh! No, you've still got me wrong - or I've not made myself clear enough. I'm not proposing an outer station to attract traffic into Norwich - not a park and ride. I said a "parkway". I'm positing that such a station might make train more accessible and attractive to people within parts of Norwich that want to get OUT! And would find such a station more useful than Norwich (central).

Which is why you would need the 'Parkway' on the Ipswich/Colchester/London route, rather then the Ely/Peterborough line?
Geography (of which my earlier picture was at the extreme end) does not make that either 'easy' or easily affordable.
Perhaps in 20-30 years time .....

 

[anti-pacer]

What's the problem with that? One's in Lancashire...and as for the other, I will leave you with the words of Milton Jones:

I was walking through town the other day, and I saw a woman with a sash which read 'MISS NOTTINGHAM'. I thought: 'That's a good idea.'

As an ex-resident of Liverpool, Manchester, Nottingham, and Great Yarmouth, I have used that line more times than I care to remember. The busiest part by far is the section between Manchester and Nottingham, with a lot of journeys starting and ending in either.

As for Manchester being in Lancashire, well that's another debate.

 

[TheEdge]

A Norwich Parkway would be pointless. Due to the layout of Norwich and the lines you would see no benefit, the areas that could be served by a parkway are all on the same side of the city and relatively easy to get to the existing station. If there was the possibility of a line north of the city and a parkway near the airport then perhaps, sadly the M&GN is long gone.

In an unlimited money situation the best rail project for Norfolk would be the Norfolk Orbital, Wymondham - Dereham - Fakenham - Melton Constable - Holt - Sheringham. On that thread I don't really understand why no serious consideration has been given to running a timetabled service Norwich - Wymondham - Dereham.

 

[306024]

The bus between Norwich and Dereham appears to run half hourly, and costs £4.30 return. Can’t see a train competing with that.

As for the route being slow, good luck with speeding up a service across the fens. It costs a fortune to maintain the track as it is.

 

[backontrack]

As an ex-resident of Liverpool, Manchester, Nottingham, and Great Yarmouth, I have used that line more times than I care to remember. The busiest part by far is the section between Manchester and Nottingham, with a lot of journeys starting and ending in either.

As for Manchester being in Lancashire, well that's another debate.

Well, that was tongue-in-cheek.

 

[anti-pacer]

Well, that was tongue-in-cheek.

I know.

 

[nottsnurse]

What's the problem with that?

Whilst you may plead trying to be funny, the Liverpool to Nottingham portion of the Liverpool to Norwich service currently connects the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th largest metropolitan areas in the UK, with a not insignificant combined population of approximately 8 million people.

As for the the point of this thread, is there really the need for a city with a comparatively small population having more stations provided? I'd suggest Norwich is extremely well-served with the overall public transport available.

Whilst I understand this is a rail forum (and thus may attract many who have an unrealistic expectation regarding railway provision levels), railways are not always the best answer for public transport.

 

[Wivenswold]

A bit of work on the track of the Wherry Lines to speed up journey times and electrification between Norwich and Cambridge/ECML. That's all that is needed in Norfolk.

 

[nottsnurse]

Direct trains to Loughborough (a university town), EM Parkway (for the airport)...

Sorry, just noticed this. Apologies for sounding harsh but that is as fine a slice of RF-standard crayon scribbling (that completely fails to acknowledge the realities on the ground) as you'll ever see.

East Midland Parkway has never been (and will likely never be) the preferred option for travelling to East Midlands Airport. The current airport link from EM Parkway (http://www.emarailink.co.uk) is laughably poor compared to links from Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.

Rerouting a service onto the congested slows of the Midland Mainline, to kick passengers out for an hourly, 6-seater transport link to the airport?

Baffling!

 

[Altfish]

I think the Norwich to Liverpool service is a great asset, running at high speeds, with catering and now even USB ports. I really hope that Norwich remains on the route, because it gives Norfolk a great connection to other parts of the country.
In an ideal world, there would also be a direct service to Birmingham and the south west, but these are only one change away and served by express services, so Norfolk doesn't do bad.

It is a good regular service BUT painfully slow, it also involves two reverses.
I regularly use it from Manchester to Nottingham; and less often to Peterborough. To Nottingham from Manchester, which is about 70-miles, it takes 1 hour 50-minutes; I can be in London, 200-miles away, in just over 2 hours.
I find that if I am going to Peterborough it is often quicker to go to Doncaster and change to an ECML service.

 

[MG11]

It is a good regular service BUT painfully slow, it also involves two reverses.
I regularly use it from Manchester to Nottingham; and less often to Peterborough. To Nottingham from Manchester, which is about 70-miles, it takes 1 hour 50-minutes; I can be in London, 200-miles away, in just over 2 hours.
I find that if I am going to Peterborough it is often quicker to go to Doncaster and change to an ECML service.

If you went from Manchester to Doncaster though, I'm assuming with TPE, then it would take a considerale amount of time to get between Manchester and Sheffield, as those services often run below line speed. EM 'Connect' services are about 10 minutes faster AFAIK.

I think for some customers, especially students, who may feel nervous about travelling alone, the service gives peace of mind. Back to topic, if someone wants to go from Norwich to Sheffield, then a direct service, even if longer in time, may seem more appealing than lugging suitcases around stations on the ECML and hoping they time their connections right.

 

[Altfish]

If you went from Manchester to Doncaster though, I'm assuming with TPE, then it would take a considerale amount of time to get between Manchester and Sheffield, as those services often run below line speed. EM 'Connect' services are about 10 minutes faster AFAIK.

I think for some customers, especially students, who may feel nervous about travelling alone, the service gives peace of mind. Back to topic, if someone wants to go from Norwich to Sheffield, then a direct service, even if longer in time, may seem more appealing than lugging suitcases around stations on the ECML and hoping they time their connections right.

Wouldn't disagree about not wanting to change.
BUT I think you are wrong about timings on Manchester to Sheffield, TPE and EMT are very similar times, TPE being slightly quicker at 48mins c/w 51 for EMT.

Also, if you put Manchester to Peterborough into Trainline or equivalent the results are all over the place.
The direct train comes in at over 3-hours; but you are given options via Doncaster (2hr 24min); via Leeds (2h 41m), via Nuneaton (2h 38m) and via Sheffield and Retford (2h 44m)

 

[70014IronDuke]

Which is why you would need the 'Parkway' on the Ipswich/Colchester/London route, rather then the Ely/Peterborough line?
Geography (of which my earlier picture was at the extreme end) does not make that either 'easy' or easily affordable.
Perhaps in 20-30 years time .....

That is why I wasn't suggesting it on the direct line to Liverpool Street. It would need a major station (in terms of platform length) and I know that there has been all this talk for years about Norwich in 90 - adding an extra stop would not help that.

But a smaller station, on the SW edge of the city would be much cheaper, allow access from the ring road, and would be a local station for those nearby. Whether it would be popular enough is still another matter, I agree.

 

[backontrack]

Whilst you may plead trying to be funny, the Liverpool to Nottingham portion of the Liverpool to Norwich service currently connects the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th largest metropolitan areas in the UK, with a not insignificant combined population of approximately 8 million people.

I know that. Do you honestly think I'm suggesting we cut off the direct link between Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield?

 

[anti-pacer]

Sorry, just noticed this. Apologies for sounding harsh but that is as fine a slice of RF-standard crayon scribbling (that completely fails to acknowledge the realities on the ground) as you'll ever see.

East Midland Parkway has never been (and will likely never be) the preferred option for travelling to East Midlands Airport. The current airport link from EM Parkway (http://www.emarailink.co.uk) is laughably poor compared to links from Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.

Rerouting a service onto the congested slows of the Midland Mainline, to kick passengers out for an hourly, 6-seater transport link to the airport?

Baffling!

OK, let's scrap the EM Parkway idea. However, I think the rest of my suggestion was good and would provide faster links not just from the North West, but across the middle of the country too.

 

[nottsnurse]

OK, let's scrap the EM Parkway idea. However, I think the rest of my suggestion was good and would provide faster links not just from the North West, but across the middle of the country too.

I'm still not convinced about the 'via Loughborough' bit either.

Whilst it's true Loughborough is a "uni town" I'm not so sure that this alone calls for a rerouting of services onto the, as already mentioned, congested Midland Mainline slows.

Is there really an identifiable flow that needs addressing by augmenting/changing what is already in place or is this purely an "ignoring potential pinch points, it'd be nice to have" idea?

It needs to be bourne in mind that Loughborough Station itself is one of those pinch points, with its single platform face on the down slow line already having to contest with Ivanhoe Line services in both directions and a fair amount of freight traffic.

 

[eastdyke]

I'm still not convinced about the 'via Loughborough' bit either.

Whilst it's true Loughborough is a "uni town" I'm not so sure that this alone calls for a rerouting of services onto the, as already mentioned, congested Midland Mainline slows.

Is there really an identifiable flow that needs addressing by augmenting/changing what is already in place or is this purely an "ignoring potential pinch points, it'd be nice to have" idea?

It needs to be bourne in mind that Loughborough Station itself is one of those pinch points, with its single platform face on the down slow line already having to contest with Ivanhoe Line services in both directions and a fair amount of freight traffic.

You can get to Loughborough easily enough from Norfolk (bearing in mind the thread), via Peterborough/Leicester. OK not very quickly but it wouldn't be commuting as such. Time is not so much of the essence for leisure travel or for students a couple of times a term.

 

[eastdyke]

ry quickly

That is why I wasn't suggesting it on the direct line to Liverpool Street. It would need a major station (in terms of platform length) and I know that there has been all this talk for years about Norwich in 90 - adding an extra stop would not help that.
But a smaller station, on the SW edge of the city would be much cheaper, allow access from the ring road, and would be a local station for those nearby. Whether it would be popular enough is still another matter, I agree.

OK, I think I now (at last - my bad) understand your point. But as a local station just where are the passengers going to go?
Wymondham/Attleborough/Thetford? You are already next to the A11 - quicker and more convenient to keep in the car and drive.
Cambridge? Possibly, but as above with the rider that Cambridge is pretty much unfriendly for cars when getting there so perhaps a few takers for leisure travel. Commuting possible and may be increasing, but how many Norwich dwellers as a whole commute to Cambridge just now?
Peterborough? Perhaps a few but for most Peterborough is an interchange rather than a destination.

You are then getting beyond the arc of daily travel (apart from Ipswich/Colchester/London for which this station would not help) so getting to and from Norwich Station would not be a major issue for most.
I am not yet motivated to do any sums!

 

[lordbusiness]

If you think the current EMT service is slow you should have tried the Norwich to Birmingham services in the 80's. DMU or 31 and mk1's!
Happy Days!

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't most of Norfolk already connected by blood and marriage?

(Coat please).

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I musty agree here, having done Sheffield - Norwich, it takes ages, stopping at several unnecessary places like Alfreton and cannot be described as 'tolerable' speed-wise, for while no individual section is slow, it is an intercity- length route without intercity speeds. Rail to Norwich is like the roads, slow, flat, long and dull (and don't get me started on the A17!)

Having recently travelled from Liverpool to Alfreton to watch Bradford defeat the Town 3-1, I found the eponymous station exceedingly useful. It is also the best way to get to Mansfield from the north as county boundaries & politics seem to stop Robin Hood line services continuing to Sheffield. Connections at Worksop are poor.

Having said that rather tongue in cheek, EMT are not my favourite franchise. I find their services are often seriously overcrowded with trains on the busy Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield corridor typically weakened to two carriages, particularly in the evenings. The useful Crewe - Nottingham (- Skegness) service was curtailed at Derby a few years ago and the connections at Derby are not that brilliant. I even remember a single car 153 operating a Leicester - Birmingham train. Add to that lousy connections at Kettering.

My other gripe is that they want all their units to return to Derby & Nottingham meaning that EMT services between Crewe and Derby and between Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool stop much earlier in the evening than passengers would like. And we keep hearing rumours that the powers that be would love to split the Liverpool - Norwich service at Nottingham which would inconvenience many people, particularly those travelling from Norwich.

 

[misterredmist]

60 minute frequency to Liverpool via Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Peterborough etc. These trains are packed as well, with many people travelling as far as Manchester.

Those trains are rammed... I have seen them arrive at Peterborough, 2 carriage sets, and witnessed the bun fights to get on just to stand !

an absolute disgrace for such a long journey, hardly an incentive to travel to those destinations by train.

 

[70014IronDuke]

ry quickly

OK, I think I now (at last - my bad) understand your point. But as a local station just where are the passengers going to go?
Wymondham/Attleborough/Thetford? You are already next to the A11 - quicker and more convenient to keep in the car and drive.
Cambridge? Possibly, but as above with the rider that Cambridge is pretty much unfriendly for cars when getting there so perhaps a few takers for leisure travel. Commuting possible and may be increasing, but how many Norwich dwellers as a whole commute to Cambridge just now?
Peterborough? Perhaps a few but for most Peterborough is an interchange rather than a destination.

You are then getting beyond the arc of daily travel (apart from Ipswich/Colchester/London for which this station would not help) so getting to and from Norwich Station would not be a major issue for most.
I am not yet motivated to do any sums!

Hmmm. Obviously this is a lesson in my (in)ability to compose crystal clear, unambiguous text here

By 'small station' I meant one with platforms built to suit the local service - which I assume would not need to be larger than 4 (or 5?) 30m carriages. (And therefore much cheaper than one built on the main line to London.)

When I wrote "as a local station for those nearby" I meant that a station at or near either a) at or near the A140 Ipswich Rd or b)
Keswick Low Rd or c) Intwood Rd (the latter two both on the SW extremities of Norwich, but still inside the ring road, would have a local population/catchment area within walking distance of the location. So none of these sites would rely 100% on pure 'parkway' type demand.

My guess is this would be especially true of the Ipswich Rd site, which has a college and Holiday Inn close by. That site, however, would not appear to be so attractive to folks in north-west Norwich, who I guess would have to travel further round the ring road. (so they might as well just get themselves into central Norwich for the current station.)

If a station were built by the side of the A11, just outside the ring road (let's call that site d) it would surely be more attractive to folks in NW and north north Norwich, but would appear to have no local population to speak of within walking distance of the station.

Certainly, I can see that, as parkway stations, none of these sites would attract many pax to or from Thetford (as you say, for most folks, once in the car, let's drive all the way). No doubt some would be dropped off for Ely/Cambridge on a regular basis, however - depending on what train service were to be provided. And a station at Ipswich Rd would, I assume, attract some inward traffic to the college and maybe Holiday Inn.

However, the passengers I thought any such station could attract would be folks going on more "strategic" journeys - so you might say anyone going beyond Cambridge or March who were not commuting on a daily basis - and who would find the 'parkway' station far more accessible than the current set up.

Again, I am speculating. I feel sure any one of these station sites - had they been inherited - would be useful for passengers today. Whether there is space at any of these sites for a new station, or whether it makes economic sense today to build them new is another matter.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted