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Comment piece in Passenger Transport - "The railway risks becoming irrelevant"

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GoneSouth

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Probably more that it's (effectively) unlimited in quantity and free. Few people want to spend a whole day at such places (other than potentially very large ones like the Trafford Centre with significant leisure facilities), three hours is probably a sweet spot for some shopping and a coffee.
Not sure 3 hours would cover a bit of shopping, something to eat and a movie.

Personally I think these places should be forced to charge for parking so we have a level playing field with town and city centres. Let’s call it a city regeneration tax. Not sure I’m going to find many friends with that opinion 8-)
 
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yorksrob

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In my experience these people will get taken there in a car by someone when they need to go. There is usually some sort of bus service to these places anyway.

That doesn't fit with my experience, but all households are inevitably different !
 

miklcct

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You are once again reminded that there are 33 million cars in the UK and the vast majority of people have access to one.
The people I know in my sport club, apart from an American (!) who moved recently to Bournemouth, all have a car, however, all of my close friends who moved from Hong Kong don't have one and use 26-30 Railcards for train travel.
 

ar10642

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Not sure 3 hours would cover a bit of shopping, something to eat and a movie.

Personally I think these places should be forced to charge for parking so we have a level playing field with town and city centres. Let’s call it a city regeneration tax. Not sure I’m going to find many friends with that opinion 8-)
To be honest I can't stand retail parks and would rather pay more to go to a town centre but that might be a minority opinion.
 

Kite159

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Not sure 3 hours would cover a bit of shopping, something to eat and a movie.

Personally I think these places should be forced to charge for parking so we have a level playing field with town and city centres. Let’s call it a city regeneration tax. Not sure I’m going to find many friends with that opinion 8-)
And that will simply push people to shop online where they don't have to worry about paying for parking. Amazon loves your idea :lol: .

Make town centre parking expensive and people will only stay for the bare minimum, to do the jobs they need to do before going away. Make it cheaper or even free and they could stay for longer. In Andover free parking kicks in at 4pm and there is normally a queue to get into one of the car parks just before 4pm so visitors don't pay.

Back on topic, there are a couple people at work who are heading up to Newcastle in the next few weeks, they are glad they decided to use easyJet rather than trusting the train, even though the costs are broadly the same (taking into account airport parking charges for the car).

Some guards don't help themselves when they hide away in the middle/back cabs, not even making announcements, ie London Northwestern/Southeastern.
 

stuu

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Do all members of those households have equal access to the car ? Some members might really on public transport.
I was replying to the assertion that " retail parks are deliberating limiting themselves to a small subset of potential customers if they are designed only for car access".

When the reality is that the enormous majority of the potential customers of retail parks have cars. How many people in households with cars do you think in all honesty can't get driven to them at some point during a week? Serious question
 

bramling

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To be honest I can't stand retail parks and would rather pay more to go to a town centre but that might be a minority opinion.

The problem with that is that some town centres are nowadays pretty lacking when it comes to useful shops. My town centre has become heavily dominated by coffee bars and barber shops, the only useful places are Wilkinson, Boots, a small hardware store, an independent newsagent, and a couple of banks (albeit for the latter their opening hours post-Covid are so restricted as to be almost useless).

I do agree with the sentiment though, I can’t stand retail parks either, and can’t really see why they’re such a popular “day out” destination. They clearly are, though.
 

DC1989

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I cannot believe that this is a railway forum and there are members here against rail and for cars. Are we in America?

Next - why all nursery school teachers should have automatic weapons? . This is a complete nonsense, surely we can all see that?

The reason people go to out of town shopping centres is not because people 'like them' it's because we have Fostered a car dependent culture. Come on people!

There's a reason why 2/3 Britons are overweight and it isn't because of parking charges in city centres
 
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HSTEd

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I cannot believe that this is a railway forum and there are members here against rail and for cars. Are we in America?
One can be sympathetic to rail without becoming an unthinking zealot?

In addition, retail moving closer to the major road system is a good thing - it reduces lorry mileage in urban areas and saves fuel, lorry drivers time and probably lives.

Town centres are ultimately dying as significant retail areas, especially with the trend to online leaving the UK with a huuuge oversupply of retail space.

If rail and public transport generally want a place in our new world they have to be better than they are.

Faster, cheaper and more convenient.
 

stuu

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I cannot believe that this is a railway forum and there are members here against rail and for cars. Are we in America?

Next - why all nursery school teachers should have automatic weapons? . This is a complete nonsense, surely we can all see that?

The reason people go to out of town shopping centres is not because people 'like them' it's because we have Fostered a car dependent culture. Come on people!
Unless you live in one of the biggest cities, it is, for many people, impossible to use rail to get into your local town or city centre. Even large cities like Leeds and Bristol have next to no local services for most of the urban area. That's the reality. We should be doing much more to promote active travel, and improving local bus services. But the rail network in most places doesn't support those sort of journeys and never will
 

uvarvu

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I’m sat on a train and I overheard a passenger say that it’s cheaper for him to travel home by train instead of by car for the first time due to fuel prices going up. I’m sure he’s not the only one thinking that.
 

wobman

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Unless you live in one of the biggest cities, it is, for many people, impossible to use rail to get into your local town or city centre. Even large cities like Leeds and Bristol have next to no local services for most of the urban area. That's the reality. We should be doing much more to promote active travel, and improving local bus services. But the rail network in most places doesn't support those sort of journeys and never will
I know tfw are working towards an integrated public transport for Wales, they are building bus stops at rural stations with ticketing that flows from bus journeys onwards to the train journey.

It's about integrating public transport to make it work and relevant for the public, this all takes investment and cooperation to make it work.
The price of petrol & diesel will drive people onto public transport, so making it work for the travelling public is the way to go.
 

johncrossley

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Why do people talk so much about shopping trips? Nobody talks about trips to friends and family but they are also significant.

In 2019, average number of trips (trip rates) per person per year by trip purpose in England

Commuting140
Business28
Education68
Escort education58
Shopping181
Other escort83
Personal business88
Visiting friends at private home82
Visiting friends elsewhere48
Entertainment / public activity59
Sport: participate13
Holiday: base13
Day trip32
Other including just walk61


 

ainsworth74

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I’m sat on a train and I overheard a passenger say that it’s cheaper for him to travel home by train instead of by car for the first time due to fuel prices going up. I’m sure he’s not the only one thinking that.
Yes that's an interesting one, especially, I suspect in the North.

My weekly season that I buy is around £20/25. A weeks worth of petrol for my commute done by road is coming in at around £35/40 at the moment and add parking on top, around £3 per day so another £15, and you talking over £50 per week. The train is considerably cheaper at this point than driving! I've had a few strange looks from friends (of the non-rail variety!) and neighbours when I say I'm using the train rather than driving as round here the default is to drive. But they soon change their tune when I point out the price difference!

I actually think that Northern could make some hay by pointing out, where relevant, the price of a weekly season compared to a tank of fuel and parking every week.

Of course I fully expect that the Treasury will see the above and rather than think about growing the market and revenue that way they'll decide the season ticket is too cheap and must immediately be doubled in price :rolleyes:
 

Taunton

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I was replying to the assertion that " retail parks are deliberating limiting themselves to a small subset of potential customers if they are designed only for car access".

When the reality is that the enormous majority of the potential customers of retail parks have cars. How many people in households with cars do you think in all honesty can't get driven to them at some point during a week? Serious question
Certainly the bulk of those who out-of-town retail parks wish to come have cars. These are the people with money to spend there.

Manager of Lakeside, Essex, told me that although they organise and subsidise bus services there, this is only because they had to for planning permission. They don't carry many, and of those who do they are their poorest spenders; the other principal group they bring in are teenagers, who are a confounded nuisance to their security staff. He said that frankly he wished they could abandon them.
 

ar10642

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Yes that's an interesting one, especially, I suspect in the North.

My weekly season that I buy is around £20/25. A weeks worth of petrol for my commute done by road is coming in at around £35/40 at the moment and add parking on top, around £3 per day so another £15, and you talking over £50 per week. The train is considerably cheaper at this point than driving! I've had a few strange looks from friends (of the non-rail variety!) and neighbours when I say I'm using the train rather than driving as round here the default is to drive. But they soon change their tune when I point out the price difference!

I actually think that Northern could make some hay by pointing out, where relevant, the price of a weekly season compared to a tank of fuel and parking every week.

Of course I fully expect that the Treasury will see the above and rather than think about growing the market and revenue that way they'll decide the season ticket is too cheap and must immediately be doubled in price :rolleyes:
Still doesn't work in my area. If I pick a typical short(ish) commute I used to actually do 4 years ago, Haywards Heath to Lewes 5 days a week, fuel assuming 37mpg (in practice I'd get 50mpg+ for that now) and £1.91 a litre comes to £2.88 each way. x2 then x20 for typical 4 week month comes to £115.20.

The railway want £159 a month for that journey now, assuming that will be going up loads in January too.
 

ainsworth74

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Still doesn't work in my area. If I pick a typical short(ish) commute I used to actually do 4 years ago, Haywards Heath to Lewes 5 days a week, fuel assuming 37mpg (in practice I'd get 50mpg+ for that now) and £1.91 a litre comes to £2.88 each way. x2 then x20 for typical 4 week month comes to £115.20.

The railway want £159 a month for that journey now, assuming that will be going up loads in January too.
Of course the calculation is very different in the South East due to the general absurdity of all flexible rail fares down there. I think this is a situation which only really the likes of Northern (and even then, not everywhere) could capitalise on.
 

takno

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Manager of Lakeside, Essex, told me that although they organise and subsidise bus services there, this is only because they had to for planning permission. They don't carry many, and of those who do they are their poorest spenders; the other principal group they bring in are teenagers, who are a confounded nuisance to their security staff. He said that frankly he wished they could abandon them.
This of course is one of the most significant problems with the privatisation of public space. The low spenders and teenagers have a right to exist and participate in their communities. Out of town centres see it as their right, and sometimes even obligation, to prevent this from happening.
 

Peter Sarf

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As a general point I see that a lot of comments on this thread are non rail related. This reflects the amount society depends on the car. So how does rail get to be more relevant or essential ?.

I would say we need to look at public transport as a whole. Rail should be part of an integrated public transport network. To think otherwise and treat each mode in isolation is er isolationist !.

Thinking about my journeys.
Walk where I can (and further than the younger generation would).
Bus to beyond the town centre.
Car to retail that is mainly out of town (including fo big DIY things).
Central London by Bus (to slightly beyond town centre) then train.
Car to things like my favourite music festival - a venue I would not visit if I had no car.
Cardiff from Croydon by Bus, Train * (Victoria) Coach to Cardiff, Lift (the coach and busses no longer connect by Cardiff Central station).

* = As I have an over 60s (free) Oyster the fare from East Croydon to Victoria is zero - otherwise it would often cost more then the coach from Victoria to Cardiff which is a ridiculous difference.

Meanwhile :-
Yes I lived in Hong Kong. Car ownership is low because parking is unaffordable in general except in rural villages. Also the fuel cost plus tunnel cost is generally more expensive than bus fare as well.

Town centre is by definition where the market is. Therefore it's where everyone wants to go so buses operate there. Also as town centre parking is at a premium people won't want to use a car to go there.
In the case of London many decades age (1960s iirc ?) people were encouraged to move out of central London and commute in by train. They own a car but it is impractical to use it into central London. However most other large connurbations have not changed in the same way.
Not sure 3 hours would cover a bit of shopping, something to eat and a movie.

Personally I think these places should be forced to charge for parking so we have a level playing field with town and city centres. Let’s call it a city regeneration tax. Not sure I’m going to find many friends with that opinion 8-)
Fingers crossed the march of ecology will cover that.
The people I know in my sport club, apart from an American (!) who moved recently to Bournemouth, all have a car, however, all of my close friends who moved from Hong Kong don't have one and use 26-30 Railcards for train travel.
Age demographic at play there I suspect.
I cannot believe that this is a railway forum and there are members here against rail and for cars. Are we in America?

Next - why all nursery school teachers should have automatic weapons? . This is a complete nonsense, surely we can all see that?

The reason people go to out of town shopping centres is not because people 'like them' it's because we have Fostered a car dependent culture. Come on people!

There's a reason why 2/3 Britons are overweight and it isn't because of parking charges in city centres
Reality is reality. Sometimes the truth hurts and needs to be heard.

I agree about the rise of car dependent culture. And then the councils and government capitalise on the investment.
One can be sympathetic to rail without becoming an unthinking zealot?

In addition, retail moving closer to the major road system is a good thing - it reduces lorry mileage in urban areas and saves fuel, lorry drivers time and probably lives.

Town centres are ultimately dying as significant retail areas, especially with the trend to online leaving the UK with a huuuge oversupply of retail space.

If rail and public transport generally want a place in our new world they have to be better than they are.

Faster, cheaper and more convenient.
But I fear the nodes that public transport can focus on are being spread out too thinly by replacing town centres with more than one out of town area. And often no where near a railway line.
I’m sat on a train and I overheard a passenger say that it’s cheaper for him to travel home by train instead of by car for the first time due to fuel prices going up. I’m sure he’s not the only one thinking that.
So the rail industry must capitalise on advantage that by being RELIABLE.
I know tfw are working towards an integrated public transport for Wales, they are building bus stops at rural stations with ticketing that flows from bus journeys onwards to the train journey.

It's about integrating public transport to make it work and relevant for the public, this all takes investment and cooperation to make it work.
The price of petrol & diesel will drive people onto public transport, so making it work for the travelling public is the way to go.
This is progress but I was disappointed to see the bus interchange area by Cardiff Central station get replaced by office blocks. Bang goes a major public interchange.
Yes that's an interesting one, especially, I suspect in the North.

My weekly season that I buy is around £20/25. A weeks worth of petrol for my commute done by road is coming in at around £35/40 at the moment and add parking on top, around £3 per day so another £15, and you talking over £50 per week. The train is considerably cheaper at this point than driving! I've had a few strange looks from friends (of the non-rail variety!) and neighbours when I say I'm using the train rather than driving as round here the default is to drive. But they soon change their tune when I point out the price difference!

I actually think that Northern could make some hay by pointing out, where relevant, the price of a weekly season compared to a tank of fuel and parking every week.

Of course I fully expect that the Treasury will see the above and rather than think about growing the market and revenue that way they'll decide the season ticket is too cheap and must immediately be doubled in price :rolleyes:
That is the risk. And a nationalised rail industry might be more likely to get hamstrung like that - assuming the state can get more control than it currently already has !.
 
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JonathanH

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This is progress but I was disappointed to see the bus interchange area by Cardiff Central station get replaced by office blocks. Bang goes a major public interchange.
At the same time, putting office blocks next to a station should encourage use of the railway.

How much use was made of the ability to interchange between bus and train at Cardiff? There is a tendency to place greater importance on interchange between bus and train than the needs of pure bus users on this forum.
 

Peter Sarf

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At the same time, putting office blocks next to a station should encourage use of the railway.

How much use was made of the ability to interchange between bus and train at Cardiff? There is a tendency to place greater importance on interchange between bus and train than the needs of pure bus users on this forum.
You have a point about rail. For me it was the loss of interchange between Coach and Bus. Generally I would say it was the town centre location for people going to work by bus that has been degraded.
 

wobman

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At the same time, putting office blocks next to a station should encourage use of the railway.

How much use was made of the ability to interchange between bus and train at Cardiff? There is a tendency to place greater importance on interchange between bus and train than the needs of pure bus users on this forum.
Isn't an integrated public transport system better for everyone, there are multiple stops on bus routes so passengers cab alight before the interchange if need be.

Better public transport helps us all in the end, especially with higher fuel prices for cars etc
 

Goldfish62

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You are once again reminded that there are 33 million cars in the UK and the vast majority of people have access to one.
Indeed. Only in Greater London do the majority of households not have access to a car.
 

Taunton

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This of course is one of the most significant problems with the privatisation of public space. The low spenders and teenagers have a right to exist and participate in their communities. Out of town centres see it as their right, and sometimes even obligation, to prevent this from happening.
"Participation in their communities" presumably includes shoplifting?

The shoppoing centre is a commercial organisation. It's not their job to support such social "participation", though actually of course they do, for the mainstream majority of their customers, who find the experience far more pleasant than the faded glory of onetime high streets.
 

AlterEgo

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The people I know in my sport club, apart from an American (!) who moved recently to Bournemouth, all have a car, however, all of my close friends who moved from Hong Kong don't have one and use 26-30 Railcards for train travel.
Yes and your experience is not something that can be mapped to the entire country, as we keep finding.
 

Peter Sarf

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Well yes, the National Express coach terminal in Cardiff is in a crazy location for onward travel and interchange.
You are correct there, ironically the National Express stops (Sophia Gardens) are now more suitable for connection to car transport !. The Megabus stop is however a harder area to park near. Both operators are biased to the North side of central Cardiff making walking less tempting than it was to the South.
 

Watershed

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I've been doing the job for years and I'm yet to find out what important tasks a guard can be doing in the back that will take up an entire hour long plus journey
Watching Netflix, of course ;)
 

Peter Sarf

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"Participation in their communities" presumably includes shoplifting?

The shoppoing centre is a commercial organisation. It's not their job to support such social "participation", though actually of course they do, for the mainstream majority of their customers, who find the experience far more pleasant than the faded glory of onetime high streets.
My bold.

However, only yesterday, I was reminded how very pleasant the shopping centre in Cardiff is compared to Croydon town centre. Yes there are people I would sweep off to somewhere else in both cases (maybe more so in Croydon). In Cardiff I can walk (25mins) North up the Taff to the centre or South (20mins) to the out of town shopping.

Makes me think - To bolster @JonathanH 's point (recently above) it is quite likely there is more employment in Central Cardiff then Croydon. So perhaps I should be comparing Cardiff to central London.
 
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