Clitheroe to Hellifield

[Guilty Clouds]

Does anyone know if there are any plans in the (mid to distant) future to reinstate a service other than the seasonal Sundays only Dalesrail between these 2 places?
It seems stupid that seeing as trains have been reinstated between Blackburn and Clitheroe, not to have a few of them connect at Hellifield into Leeds-Carlisle/Carlisle-Leeds trains. It's ridiculous that anyone in the North-West has to go to Leeds to access the Western Yorkshire Dales. It may not be a major commuter route, but after all, the various reopenings of stations along the S&C was not just for the benefit of local residents, to also to bring tourism.

 

[Welshman]

I travelled that way on a Voyager on a diverted Preston-Carlisle service last weekend.
The line seems to have been recently relaid between Clitheroe and Hellifield, and it does seem strange it sees no regular passenger service. It would provide a good way from Manchester into the Yorkshire dales, with Blackburn-Hellifield taking only 30 minutes or so, and possibly opening-up a new commuter route also.

 

[blackfive460]

Two question; which TOC do you think would want to run, say a Manchester - Carlisle service this way and; where would they get the extra stock from?
I think the latter is the main stumbling block at the moment.

 

[Welshman]

I wasn't thinking of a regular Manchester-Carlisle service as such. Simply that perhaps some of Northern's existing Manchester-Clitheroe services could be extended to Hellifield to connect with existing Northern Leeds-Carlisle services, and there might even be a new peak-hour train from Skipton in the morning and returning from Manchester in the evening, reversing at Hellifield. Although the journey time would be longer than envisaged were the Skipton-Colne section ever to be reopened, it would at least go some way towards meeting the need in the meanwhile.

 

[Invincibles]

There seem to be trains to Carlisle from Hellifield at:

1137
1340
1537
2015 (Ribblehead)

Trains from Manchester arrive in Clitheroe at xx17 and depart at xx40

I have been trying to play with this one and come up with the following:

Clitheroe.. a 10:17 11:17 12:17 13:17 14:17 15:17 16:17 17:17 18:17 19:17
Clitheroe.. d ----- 11:20 ----- ----- 14:17 15:17 ----- ----- 18:20 19:20
Hellifield..a ----- 11:44 LLLLL LLLLL 14:39 15:39 ----- ----- 18:44 19:44
Hellifield..d ----- 11:44 11:47 13:47 AAAA  15:43 ----- -----  AAAA AAAA
Settle......a ----- 11:53 11:56 13:53 ----  15:53 ----- ----- ----- ----
Ribblehead..a ----- 12:10 12:12 14:10 ----  16:09 ----- ----- ----- ----


Ribblehead  d  13:14 13:45  15:23 ----- 17:42 17:50
Settle......d  13:29 14:00  15:39 ----- 17:57 18:05
Hellifield..a  13:37 14:08  15:48 AAAA  18:06 18:12  AAAA  AAAA
Hellifield..d  LLLLL 14:10  LLLLL 16:10 LLLLL 18:15 19:07 20:10
Clitheroe   a  ----- 14:34  ----- 16:34 ----- 18:37 19:30 20:35
Clitheroe   d  ----- 14:40* 15:40 16:40 17:40 18:40 19:40 20:40

The 06:40 could start at Hellifield or Settle running there ECS.

This timetable works by having a unit that was on maintainance run to Clitheroe DIT on the 11:17 arrival where it would be detached. One unit then runs through to Hellifield and Ribblehead (which I think is the easiest station for the train to terminate at) The other unit goes back as the 11:40

The 12:17 arrival stays in clitheroe and goes back as the 12:40
The 13:17 arrival stays in clitheroe and goes back as the 13:40

The train that has gone to ribblehead comes back following the Carlisle to Leeds train and is then in time to form the 14:40

This leaves the 14:17 arrival clear to continue to Hellifield where it is terminated, running into the watering point for steam trains.

The 15:17 arrival brings another DIT to drop at Clitheroe (which can have had mainatainance in the morning) to form the 15:40 while the rest continues on to join the 15:38 at Hellifield to Carlisle. This is then dropped off at Ribblehead. (could be run 3 minutes different like the earlier one)

The 16:17 arrival moves as normal to the Manchester platform where it is joined by the train back in from Hellifield (This has come from Hellifield watering point and then back behind the Leeds train at 15:48 - departure from Hellifield could be 16:10) where it goes into Manchester to provide extra capacity.

The 17:17 arrival goes back as the 17:40

The unit at Ribblehead comes back as a 17:50 from Ribblehead arriving into Clitheroe in time to form the 18:40

The 18:17 arrival is therefore free to run through to Hellifield where it would be in plenty of time to connect with the 18:55 S&C. The arrival from Carlisle is 20:01 and I do not think the unit would wait around for that so it would come back to form the 19:40.

The 19:17 arrival then runs to Hellifield and terminates. It does not have a connection north but could then wait in the northbound platform for the 20:01 arrival from Carlisle. It then runs to Clitheroe to form the 20:40

The 20:17 arrival from Manchester goes over to the Manchester bound platform and is attached DIT to the arrival from Hellifield. It then runs to Manchester as the 20:40

This set of diagrams are a bit wasteful in having the hour at Ribblehead for two units. They need two additional units for 3 hours each (one between 10:00 and 13:00 and one between 14:00 and 17:00), this can be done with maintainance rejigging and out of the units that are not used off peak. 5 trains are provided between Clitheroe and Hellifield with potentially 2 more running in the morning peak (northbound ECS).

A pretty good service I think and it would test if there is any demand for trains on the section. Creating turning facilities north of Ribblehead would allow better use of the units that are timed to sit at Ribblehead, but they can not reach Appleby so I suppose Ribblehead is as good as anywhere.

 

[Whistler40145]

I would alternate the current Morecambe-Leeds service with a Manchester-Clitheroe-Carnforth-Morecambe service.

 

[Nonsense]

I would alternate the current Morecambe-Leeds service with a Manchester-Clitheroe-Carnforth-Morecambe service.

Manchester - Morecambe

 

[Whistler40145]

What does Nonsense think?

 

[Nonsense]

What does Nonsense think?

Couldn't find a 'thumbs up' icon so its a Big Smilie face in response to a Direct Morecambe - Manchester link. I'd never use it, but the town has been left to rot by its Lancastrian masters. Any connectivity with the outside world is a step in the right direction.

 

[Whistler40145]

Nonsense, I know what you mean about Morecambe, it's a bit naff & only decent building is the Midland Hotel!

Mind you, Blackpool isn't much better & I leave on the outskirts!

 

[Invincibles]

Surely Manchester to Morecambe is better routed via Bolton as an extension of the Preston terminator? (Although I would be sending that to Blackpool South rather than Morecambe)

Because I took the Hellifield - Ribblehead times from the Settle and Carlisle website I did not think about Morecambe trains. Maybe my service would get in the way?

One possibility would be to send the 11:44 that I moved up to Ribblehead forewards as:

Hellifield..... 11:39 15:39
Giggleswick. 11:49 15:49
...
Carnforth....12:24 16:24

Carnforth....13:10 17:30
...
Hellifield......14:00 18:15

These would add to trains already using the route and give more trains to the WCML from Hellifield. However they obviously do not have connections with the incoming train from Leeds.

Option B - bidi

Hellifield 11:39 11:44
Hellifield ---->. 11:44 11:49
Carnforth..................12:34

Carnforth to Clitheroe not reworked as there is a Morecambe - Leeds train 30 minutes ahead of the Carlisle - Leeds train so no connection would be needed.

Hellifield 15:39 15:44
Hellifield ---->. 15:44 15:49
Carnforth................ 16:34

Carnforth 17:15
Hellifield...18:00 18:06
Hellifield .......... 18:08 18:10

This one I have retimed as it would provide a useful connection. If this could be extended to Lancaster following the 16:59 from Preston to London (which presumably passes Carnforth around 16:35) then it would arrive arround 16:50 in time for a 17:00 departure (ahead of the Glasgow Pendolino and the Scotland Voyager that have left Preston at 16:44 and 16:54 respectively) I do not know if that then fits with a diagram to Morcambe allowing the units to swap.

If it could be worked that the platforms at Hellifield are vice versa then you could move things a little bit to allow connections there as well. Just need to have the platforms being bi-di

The rest of the diagrams and times on the line would work as I set out in my earlier post.

 

[Tomnick]

Not sure the platforms at Hellifield are able to be worked permissively, and certain the platforms at Clitheroe can't be - so, without some resignalling, you wouldn't be able to run an arrival on top of a unit to join. You might get away with shunting the empty unit on the back, but that'd put quite a bit of time into the job.

Obviously reversible platforms at Hellifield would be a complete resignalling job!

 

[Whistler40145]

Tomnick, my idea was a bit outrageous!

 

[Tomnick]

Tomnick, my idea was a bit outrageous!

...and wouldn't require any form of splitting/joining en-route, so would work with the existing signalling, if nothing else!

 

[Invincibles]

Not sure the platforms at Hellifield are able to be worked permissively, and certain the platforms at Clitheroe can't be - so, without some resignalling, you wouldn't be able to run an arrival on top of a unit to join. You might get away with shunting the empty unit on the back, but that'd put quite a bit of time into the job.

Obviously reversible platforms at Hellifield would be a complete resignalling job!

Ah well, surely worth it for all these lovely connections with so few extra units

I was just trying to find a way of actually fitting onward working into the timetable, it does not seem very easy without a recast of something or the sort of signalling changes that would be needed to make that bi-di timetable work.

I would rather they focused on Bolton - Manchester and similar distances to create a little more space on the longer distance trains that get clogged up with commuters over short distances and make the journey on to scotland a lot less attractive than it should be.

 

[bluenoxid]

Would a coach set up for through ticketing be better placed to provide this kind of link for the interim?

 

[Tomnick]

Just a further thought on Invincibles' proposal - three minute headways aren't ever going to be possible between Hellifield and Ribblehead. Not sure whether there's now IB signals between Settle Jn and Blea Moor (I think there are?), but I'd guess you'd still be looking at headways approaching twelve minutes...

 

[lancastrian]

Well I think that this is a great idea. IT should not be that difficult to extend the Manchester - Clitheroe service to Hellifield. Then the stations at Chatburn & Gisburn could be reopened and if the South facing bay platform at Hellifield was reinstated, the trains could reverse without blocking the other two platforms.

While it would be great if services where extended beyond Hellified to Settle/Morecambe or even through to Carlisle, it would be much more likely to just see the service extended to Hellifield. Plus although this might, to some small degree help anyone wishing to travel from East Lancashre to the Aire Valley. It would be much better to reopen the Colne to Skipton line as soon as possible.

 

[Invincibles]

Just a further thought on Invincibles' proposal - three minute headways aren't ever going to be possible between Hellifield and Ribblehead. Not sure whether there's now IB signals between Settle Jn and Blea Moor (I think there are?), but I'd guess you'd still be looking at headways approaching twelve minutes...

Ultimately that will be what stuffs it because the connecting train in from Clitheroe would have to go out ahead of the leeds - carlisle train it had been designed to connect with. Although I could cheekily delay it 8 minutes, as I did, longer would not work.

It is a Shame they can not use Hellifield bi-directionally as it would make more Leeds to Carnforth/Lancaster trains if my proposal to have the S&C overtake the Clitheore - Carnforth at Hellifield station was workable.

Extending the two trains through to Carnforth/Lancaster would work without the connection, although then maybe headways between Hellifield and Long Preston would come into play. Even with the new train not stopping at Long Preston it would delay things a bit too much I suppose.

If it was possible to put the Leeds - Carlisle back by sufficient headway my Ribblehead / Carnforth terminations are back on but their demand would be insufficient I think.

A bay at Hellifield would work well, but the timing of trains on the Settle and Carlisle would mean all trains extending there and many not having connections to Carlisle.

For each xx17 arrival at Clitheroe you send north there is a xx40 to form from Clitheroe. 1 hour 20 minutes including turn around at Hellifield works, but would mean all having to go forward I think.

As another question, is the xx17 time inclusive of padding? It is a while since I took the line on a Clitheroe terminator and can not remember. Every minute that can be saved there would also help with lessening the need to delay the Leeds - Carlisle.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just a further thought on Invincibles' proposal - three minute headways aren't ever going to be possible between Hellifield and Ribblehead. Not sure whether there's now IB signals between Settle Jn and Blea Moor (I think there are?), but I'd guess you'd still be looking at headways approaching twelve minutes...

I'm pretty certain that there is an IB signal at Selside but you would have to double check this.

 

[Tomnick]

I'd be surprised if there wasn't - Settle Jn to Blea Moor must have been one of the longest sections previously. The section south of there, Hellifield to Settle Jn, is IB-less though I believe.

 

[spionkop64]

There is a ground signal to take you from Hellifield's down platform back towards to Clitheroe. So you can turn around in the down platform, or boot everyone off and cross the ECS over at Settle Jn.

Operationally it's Ok (ish), but in truth how many people would use the service? When the Clitheroe-Vic started the local rail users group wanted the trains to continue to Hellifield (and there was loads of hanging around time at Horrocksford Jn back then), but as the passenger services had been split into RRNE and NW no one was willing to play ball.

What is interesting is that some of the old junction stations are slowly reverting to interchange stations: Wakefield Kirkgate being a case in point, with passengers changing from Knottingley into Leeds-Sheff-Notts-Hudds trains. Plus now GC's Bradford-London, which I recently used when travelling Bradford-Leicester (I avoided Leeds, by changing at Kirkgate and Sheffield). There lies the problem, the PTEs are fixated into sending every train into the regional centre, with better connections (and interchange stations) the pressure could be taken off places like Leeds and Manchester.

Sorry, zoomed off topic there! Oh and yes there are now IB signals between Settle Jn-Blea Moor.

 

[PinzaC55]

The obvious reason why they don't reinstate a permanent service is because they know that if it turned out to be a dud they'd face major legal obstacles to trying to withdraw it.
That's why up and down the country you have stations such as Blaydon and Chathill with the barest possible service to save the expense of actually closing them.
In fact they'd probably like to abandon the Newcastle - Chathill service altogether and close all of the stations if they could get away with it.

 

[spionkop64]

The obvious reason why they don't reinstate a permanent service is because they know that if it turned out to be a dud they'd face major legal obstacles to trying to withdraw it.
That's why up and down the country you have stations such as Blaydon and Chathill with the barest possible service to save the expense of actually closing them.
In fact they'd probably like to abandon the Newcastle - Chathill service altogether and close all of the stations if they could get away with it.

Through the 70s I spent virtually my entire school holidays at my Granddads in Northumberland. We would get off at Widdrington and catch a bus on from there. They whittled down the service to such an extent that it became unuseable for anyone but communters. Now the only way is to Alnmouth and find a relative to pick me up. An hourly electric stopping service between Alnmouth and Newcastle would work well. In an ideal world Newcastle-Berwick/Edinburgh but to be fair the population north of Alnwick hardly warrants it.

 

[lancastrian]

The obvious reason why they don't reinstate a permanent service is because they know that if it turned out to be a dud they'd face major legal obstacles to trying to withdraw it.
That's why up and down the country you have stations such as Blaydon and Chathill with the barest possible service to save the expense of actually closing them.
In fact they'd probably like to abandon the Newcastle - Chathill service altogether and close all of the stations if they could get away with it.

Surely, it would not be beyond the collective intelligence of even our politicans to come up with a system in which a trial three year period could introduced to try out new services. If they are not working after that time, they could either be closed down or if they are close to breakeven, a second three period could be allowed. However, after a maximum of six years, the choice would be to either to maintain it as a full service, or to close it down with no consquicenses.

 

[bluenoxid]

Surely, it would not be beyond the collective intelligence of even our politicans to come up with a system in which a trial three year period could introduced to try out new services. If they are not working after that time, they could either be closed down or if they are close to breakeven, a second three period could be allowed. However, after a maximum of six years, the choice would be to either to maintain it as a full service, or to close it down with no consquicenses.

Surely this reflects current arrangements and policy with a small amount of tweaking. Three years is the funding time that councils have to provide before it integrates into government funding for the franchise (meeting certain performance goals) and this service can be reduced back to its existing service meeting the parliamentary requirement ala Halton curve.

 

[Ivo]

Isn't that basically what Maggie's lot tried?

 

[lancastrian]

Surely this reflects current arrangements and policy with a small amount of tweaking. Three years is the funding time that councils have to provide before it integrates into government funding for the franchise (meeting certain performance goals) and this service can be reduced back to its existing service meeting the parliamentary requirement ala Halton curve.

OK I accept that, I thought the last lot of morons that ran the country (Lord Adonis excepted) had scraped it has i had not heard of any new trials for some time. Perhaps we need the old PTA to be resurected and allowed to do what they were doing very well in the 80/90's, reopening some lines and many stations. Just look at what is being done in Scotland and Wales, with the dead hand of the DfT being removed.

Perhaps, what we really need is a good Railway Man at the head of the Transport Department. I would suggest Adrian Shooter. At least he knows how to run a decent TOC, and to gain good improvements at the same time.

 

[bluenoxid]

Really what it needs is a Northern agency at the DfT.

 

[Whistler40145]

lancastrian, so the last government were morons! I certainly don't rate the coalition one bit, in fact it frightens me what they are capable of doing, knowing the Tories track record! Don't forget they closed the Pits, Steelworks & the worst, attempted to close the Settle & Carlisle Railway!

I expect the Lib Dems to make things very difficult for Cameron soon!