Clitheroe - Hellifield?

[Sunil_P]

Is it true that the Clitheroe to Hellifield workings on Sunday have gone to the big timetable in the sky?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it true that the Clitheroe to Hellifield workings on Sunday have gone to the big timetable in the sky?

Correct, for this year at least.

 

[xotGD]

Is it true that the Clitheroe to Hellifield workings on Sunday have gone to the big timetable in the sky?

Do you still need the line?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Makes the route "not via Blackburn" fares rather pointless.

 

[Sunil_P]

Do you still need the line?

Yeah, I didn't get to do it before the Pandemic

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2023 ==

Correct, for this year at least.

I guess it's steam tours only? Or have they dried up too?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I guess it's steam tours only? Or have they dried up too?

Saphos Trains Ltd have two more of their "Fellsman" day trips from Crewe to Carlisle routed that way, i.e. via Clitheroe, on Wednesday 2nd August 2023 and on Wednesday 20th September 2023.

Anyone aware of anything else?

 

[LRV3004]

I'm on the Dalesman on Tuesday 4th - that's going that way, although the steam loco doesn't come on till Hellifield though.

Realtime Trains | 1Z52 0734 Chester to Carlisle | 04/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z52 0734 departure from Chester to Carlisle on 04/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Iskra]

Saphos Trains Ltd have two more of their "Fellsman" day trips from Crewe to Carlisle routed that way, i.e. via Clitheroe, on Wednesday 2nd August 2023 and on Wednesday 20th September 2023.

Anyone aware of anything else?

20th September should have A4 haulage too…

 

[InkyScrolls]

Is it true that the Clitheroe to Hellifield workings on Sunday have gone to the big timetable in the sky?

Temporarily, yes.

 

[muddythefish]

Hope it's not the beginning of the end for the line. It was so busy with S & C freight in the 1960s and 1970s, and the Sunday diversions from the WCML were important too until they decided to bus passengers between Preston and Carlisle, something I will never, ever understand.

 

[Bovverboy]

Hope it's not the beginning of the end for the line. It was so busy with S & C freight in the 1960s and 1970s, and the Sunday diversions from the WCML were important too until they decided to bus passengers between Preston and Carlisle, something I will never, ever understand.

Using buses is quicker. In any case, even if trains were diverted via the S & C, you would still need buses to serve Lancaster/Oxenholme/Penrith.

 

[yorksrob]

Using buses is quicker. In any case, even if trains were diverted via the S & C, you would still need buses to serve Lancaster/Oxenholme/Penrith.

We've heard this argument many times but it never convinces.

 

[The Planner]

We've heard this argument many times but it never convinces.

It is slightly quicker by coach direct Preston to Carlisle if a diversion got an unimpeeded path, once you start adding in getting inbetween other trains, a coach on the M6 will win. If the coach stops along the way the advantage starts swaying back to the train but as noted above you still have to bus the intermediate stations.

 

[185143]

We've heard this argument many times but it never convinces.

Yet Carlisle-Glasgow gets diverts via Dumfries as well as buses taking similar or less time depending on pathing.

I also suspect there's little difference in Preston-Crewe on a direct bus or divert via Manchester given the known issues in the Castlefield corridor too. Likewise Crewe-Liverpool by bus or via Manchester.

Why the difference?

 

[yorksrob]

It is slightly quicker by coach direct Preston to Carlisle if a diversion got an unimpeeded path, once you start adding in getting inbetween other trains, a coach on the M6 will win. If the coach stops along the way the advantage starts swaying back to the train but as noted above you still have to bus the intermediate stations.

I think that there would need to be a very big time disadvantage before the majority of passengers come out against the rail diversion.

Yet Carlisle-Glasgow gets diverts via Dumfries as well as buses taking similar or less time depending on pathing.

I also suspect there's little difference in Preston-Crewe on a direct bus or divert via Manchester given the known issues in the Castlefield corridor too. Likewise Crewe-Liverpool by bus or via Manchester.

Why the difference?

I suppose the Preston - Crewe divert is electrified which makes things easier.

 

[185143]

I think that there would need to be a very big time disadvantage before the majority of passengers come out against the rail diversion.



I suppose the Preston - Crewe divert is electrified which makes things easier.

That's true.

But it was done pre electrification too, albeit only on a planned basis.

I've done Edinburgh-Newcastle via Carlisle with a journey time of around 3 hours. I'd expect a non stop bus to take less time than that, but I was in first class and the crew certainly kept the beer flowing. So I was hoping for a delay!

 

[yorksrob]

That's true.

But it was done pre electrification too, albeit only on a planned basis.

I've done Edinburgh-Newcastle via Carlisle with a journey time of around 3 hours. I'd expect a non stop bus to take less time than that, but I was in first class and the crew certainly kept the beer flowing. So I was hoping for a delay!

Well yes, if passengers prefer the ECML diverts, they will prefer a divert via Appleby as well.

I suspect that cost and operational convenience are the key drivers.

 

[185143]

Well yes, if passengers prefer the ECML diverts, they will prefer a divert via Appleby as well.

I suspect that cost and operational convenience are the key drivers.

As do I.

Admittedly journey time is much less of a consideration, but I know the sleepers have ran via the Durham Coast in the Serco era. Likely when Lamington collapses I suspect. Cost of that can't have been cheap with having to arrange a diesel loco to take over for the diversion from the diversion.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Well yes, if passengers prefer the ECML diverts, they will prefer a divert via Appleby as well.

I suspect that cost and operational convenience are the key drivers.

The S&C has very long signal sections which doesn't help. Diverting via the Bentham line and reversing at Hellifield, while possible, is even more difficult - Carnforth to Settle Jct. is 24 mi 44 ch and takes ~40 mins to traverse; pathing anything extra would be challenging to say the least.

 

[yorksrob]

As do I.

Admittedly journey time is much less of a consideration, but I know the sleepers have ran via the Durham Coast in the Serco era. Likely when Lamington collapses I suspect. Cost of that can't have been cheap with having to arrange a diesel loco to take over for the diversion from the diversion.

Indeed.

The S&C has very long signal sections which doesn't help. Diverting via the Bentham line and reversing at Hellifield, while possible, is even more difficult - Carnforth to Settle Jct. is 24 mi 44 ch and takes ~40 mins to traverse; pathing anything extra would be challenging to say the least.

Given how many passengers use the WCML between Preston and Scotland, I wonder whether it would be worth building in an hourly diversion path via the WCML.

 

[Condor7]

Do you still need the line?

The line still has a reasonable amount of freight. It generates its own freight with the Clitheroe to Carlisle/Mossend cement trains both there and back, it also has freight from Ribblehead to Tuebrook and Hunslet and Rylestone to Leyland plus a regular daily Carlisle to Crewe departmental and a daily Carlisle to Chirk log train both of which can be quicker than down the WCML due to the amount of loops they are required to stop in.

As has also been mentioned it gets frequent charters especially in the summer, and according to Northern Trains the Sunday only passenger train to Blackpool is only temporarily stopped and is hoping to resume next May, although with the current shortage of stock and drivers whether that has improved by then we shall have to wait and see.

 

[Ken H]

The S&C has very long signal sections which doesn't help. Diverting via the Bentham line and reversing at Hellifield, while possible, is even more difficult - Carnforth to Settle Jct. is 24 mi 44 ch and takes ~40 mins to traverse; pathing anything extra would be challenging to say the least.

It has a lot of intermediate block (IB). For instance, between Settle Jct and Blea Moor there are signals at Horton so you can have 2 trains in section. I think this was put in when the S&C was full of coal trains from Ayrshire to Aire Valley power stations some years ago. (Not sure if there is IB southbound between Blea Moor and Settle Jct)

I do remember seeing diverted WCML trains on the S&C late 1970's. I saw a Cl 47 dragging an electric loco and set of newish Mk 3coaches passing Blea Moor box.

 

[IanXC]

It has a lot of intermediate block (IB). For instance, between Settle Jct and Blea Moor there are signals at Horton so you can have 2 trains in section. I think this was put in when the S&C was full of coal trains from Ayrshire to Aire Valley power stations some years ago. (Not sure if there is IB southbound between Blea Moor and Settle Jct)

I do remember seeing diverted WCML trains on the S&C late 1970's. I saw a Cl 47 dragging an electric loco and set of newish Mk 3coaches passing Blea Moor box.

I might be wrong, but I'm of the understanding that you can't plan trains to use the IB sections, they're left for the signaller to manage the service on the day. Theres other lines of route where additional services could and would be run but which get declined for the same reason.

 

[craigybagel]

Yet Carlisle-Glasgow gets diverts via Dumfries as well as buses taking similar or less time depending on pathing.

Not for much longer....

 

[The Planner]

I might be wrong, but I'm of the understanding that you can't plan trains to use the IB sections, they're left for the signaller to manage the service on the day. Theres other lines of route where additional services could and would be run but which get declined for the same reason.

Yes we can I think. The Timetable Planning Rules shows different timing points in both directions which align to the sections. It would be very odd to split sections and not plan to them.

 

[railfan99]

I think that there would need to be a very big time disadvantage before the majority of passengers come out against the rail diversion.

Spot on, because I daresay in your country and mine, where there's a choice (not often in mine), prospective surface mode passengers prefer rail, even if it takes 45 minutes longer.

Too many have been stuck in traffic on what we call 'freeways/tollways' and you 'motorways'. One of my pet dislikes is being on a coach at 100kmh, with a large truck 'racing' it in the adjacent lane.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2023 ==

The line still has a reasonable amount of freight... anda daily Carlisle to Chirk log train...

YouTuber Leslie Gilpin (Railways) regularly features the loaded log train with a single Colas Rail Freight loco, an impressive length. Amazing number of logs cut daily (from plantations?)

 

[JonathanH]

I think that there would need to be a very big time disadvantage before the majority of passengers come out against the rail diversion.

It is quicker for many passengers to just use ECML services instead, which is also a 'rail diversion'.

 

[yorksrob]

Spot on, because I daresay in your country and mine, where there's a choice (not often in mine), prospective surface mode passengers prefer rail, even if it takes 45 minutes longer.

Too many have been stuck in traffic on what we call 'freeways/tollways' and you 'motorways'. One of my pet dislikes is being on a coach at 100kmh, with a large truck 'racing' it in the adjacent lane.

Indeed. The M6 is one of Britain's busiest motorways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2023 ==

It is quicker for many passengers to just use ECML services instead, which is also a 'rail diversion'.

True to an extent, but then the ECML has its own passengers who need to be accommodated.

 

[The Planner]

True to an extent, but then the ECML has its own passengers who need to be accommodated.

Which isn't an issue, or LNER would kick up a fuss whenever the WCML is blocked. Considering that goes both ways, operators deal with it.

 

[yorksrob]

Which isn't an issue, or LNER would kick up a fuss whenever the WCML is blocked. Considering that goes both ways, operators deal with it.

That may be fine for the railway industry but not so good for passengers. I wouldn't be surprised if affordable advanced purchase tickets become a lot scarcer on such occasions.

The industry needs to look beyond its own convenience.