Clitheroe - Hellifield?

[Mcr Warrior]

The industry needs to look beyond its own convenience.

Dream on!

 

[IanXC]

Yes we can I think. The Timetable Planning Rules shows different timing points in both directions which align to the sections. It would be very odd to split sections and not plan to them.

I'm going by what a community rail partnership were told by the relevant liaison managers from the TOC and Network Rail. The TOC confirmed they had the resources to run additional services at certain times of year, and Network Rail stated there were no paths "due to the times to clear sections between signal boxes" when asked about the IB sections NwR replied with the answer I posted previously.

 

[randyrippley]

YouTuber Leslie Gilpin (Railways) regularly features the loaded log train with a single Colas Rail Freight loco, an impressive length. Amazing number of logs cut daily (from plantations?)

Post WWII plantations of foreign conifers. Was a big thing at the time to replace trees felled during the war: it was anticipated they'd been needed for coal mine pitprops and for building. In the event technology changed, pits closed and wood was cheaper to import than fell. Now there's a policy of clearing the foreign species and allowing native woodland to replace them
Large acreages to clear in the Scottish and northern English hills

 

[185143]

Which isn't an issue, or LNER would kick up a fuss whenever the WCML is blocked. Considering that goes both ways, operators deal with it.

You mean in the way they publicly did on Twitter with Avanti after refusing carriage of passengers from Glasgow diverted due to a fatality recently?

 

[The Planner]

You mean in the way they publicly did on Twitter with Avanti after refusing carriage of passengers from Glasgow diverted due to a fatality recently?

That is different to planned works which can be mitigated. They would object during the proposal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2023 ==

I'm going by what a community rail partnership were told by the relevant liaison managers from the TOC and Network Rail. The TOC confirmed they had the resources to run additional services at certain times of year, and Network Rail stated there were no paths "due to the times to clear sections between signal boxes" when asked about the IB sections NwR replied with the answer I posted previously.

Interesting, will take a look at the signaling plans and see if its the case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2023 ==

I'm going by what a community rail partnership were told by the relevant liaison managers from the TOC and Network Rail. The TOC confirmed they had the resources to run additional services at certain times of year, and Network Rail stated there were no paths "due to the times to clear sections between signal boxes" when asked about the IB sections NwR replied with the answer I posted previously.

Just checked, all the IBs are in the planning rules.

 

[IanXC]

Just checked, all the IBs are in the planning rules.

It didn't involve the S&C if thats what you've been looking at. I can't really elaborate further as the discussion was in confidence.

 

[louis97]

It didn't involve the S&C if thats what you've been looking at. I can't really elaborate further as the discussion was in confidence.

It will vary route by route. For example the IBs on the Hope Valley between Edale and Earles were only added to the planning rules in the last 5 or so years and even more recently, I think it was Dec22, at least one IB and various other signals and box timings points were added between Peterborough and Ely. I know of various other IBs that cannot be planned against, such as those between Uttoxeter and Blythe Bridge.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think that rail replacement buses became much more common after privatisation, and became even worse after the introduction of Pendolinos & Voyagers. IUnder BR, it was all one organisation, and there were usually spare locos and crews at weekends, so no complications of having to pay a different organisation to hire locos and crews. There were insufficient Voyagers to work all diversions via S&C, and the WCML TOCs decided not to spend money to retain crew route knowledge over that route.

Whilst Preston to Carlisle may be faster by coach than trains via S&C, much of the time gained is lost by having to change twice, train to bus at Preston, and back from bus to train at Carlisle; also if there is road congestion, you cannot always guarantee that trains will wait for late-running buses.

 

[TheBigD]

It will vary route by route. For example the IBs on the Hope Valley between Edale and Earles were only added to the planning rules in the last 5 or so years and even more recently, I think it was Dec22, at least one IB and various other signals and box timings points were added between Peterborough and Ely. I know of various other IBs that cannot be planned against, such as those between Uttoxeter and Blythe Bridge.

The Ely to Peterborough route timings have incorporated the IBs for years, you wouldn't be able to have trains just 4 minutes apart through Whittlesea otherwise. (It's tight with the IBs but that's what is planned).
An extra timing point of Manea was added about 24 months ago, and have now been joined by a number of auto signals, controlled signals*, and signalboxes since December last year.

* One is shown as MANSIG924, yet is CA924 signal controlled by Cambridge and has nothing to do with Manea!

 

[The Planner]

The Ely to Peterborough route timings have incorporated the IBs for years, you wouldn't be able to have trains just 4 minutes apart through Whittlesea otherwise. (It's tight with the IBs but that's what is planned).
An extra timing point of Manea was added about 24 months ago, and have now been joined by a number of auto signals, controlled signals*, and signalboxes since December last year.

* One is shown as MANSIG924, yet is CA924 signal controlled by Cambridge and has nothing to do with Manea!

If its geographically at Manea that is why.

 

[TheBigD]

If its geographically at Manea that is why.

It's on the bridges over Welney Washes, about 2 miles from Manea 'box.

 

[furnessvale]

<SNIP>
Whilst Preston to Carlisle may be faster by coach than trains via S&C, much of the time gained is lost by having to change twice, train to bus at Preston, and back from bus to train at Carlisle; also if there is road congestion, you cannot always guarantee that trains will wait for late-running buses.

Also, ultimate speed is not the major issue. The sight of passengers, sometimes whole families, detraining at locations such as Preston, struggling to climb steps or use subways loaded with luggage, is enough to put many off rail travel for life. Up to an hour additional time penalty on a long journey using a diverted train is far preferable to changing mode twice.

I, for one, would not contemplate such a journey. May as well use an express coach throughout the trip and save the hassle and cost.

 

[muddythefish]

Also, ultimate speed is not the major issue. The sight of passengers, sometimes whole families, detraining at locations such as Preston, struggling to climb steps or use subways loaded with luggage, is enough to put many off rail travel for life. Up to an hour additional time penalty on a long journey using a diverted train is far preferable to changing mode twice.

I, for one, would not contemplate such a journey. May as well use an express coach throughout the trip and save the hassle and cost.

Exactly my feelings. In the 1970s and 1980s I sometimes travelled up to Scotland on a Sundays and the diversions via Hellifield and the S & C were never a problem (the opposite in fact - the scenery is lovely) you stayed on the train, did not have the hassle and inconvenience of changing on to coach, or the awful experience of being crammed in a coach on the M6. I very occasionally do the same journey now and always drive than having to the face the uncertainty of a possible rail replacement buses.

Diverted trains were common on the old joined-up BR, and their disappearance another consequence of the fragmented private railway and another clear case of the railway being run for the operator's convenience rather than the passenger's

 

[deltic08]

It has a lot of intermediate block (IB). For instance, between Settle Jct and Blea Moor there are signals at Horton so you can have 2 trains in section. I think this was put in when the S&C was full of coal trains from Ayrshire to Aire Valley power stations some years ago. (Not sure if there is IB southbound between Blea Moor and Settle Jct)

I do remember seeing diverted WCML trains on the S&C late 1970's. I saw a Cl 47 dragging an electric loco and set of newish Mk 3coaches passing Blea Moor box.

I think you will find that the IBs were put in for slower loaded southbound trains.

 

[Ken H]

I think you will find that the IBs were put in for slower loaded southbound trains.

Deffo an IB at Horton northbound. I think they were put in on uphill sections.

Anyone know where there is a signalling diagram for Hellifield - Petteril Br available on line?

 

[The Planner]

Deffo an IB at Horton northbound. I think they were put in on uphill sections.

Anyone know where there is a signalling diagram for Hellifield - Petteril Br available on line?

Its about four diagrams, the IBs are all locations in the timetable planning rules along there.