Class 460s - future?

[tbtc]

Quite - I really don't know why it was considered in the first place really. I remember the original plan had co-operation with the LM/TPE order for additional Desiros too, Siemens identified ordering the lot in one go would have significant savings than ordering it piecemeal.

But no... :roll:

Imagine how simple the railway could be if we could co-ordinate orders like that, ensuring that the "unit cost" of each Siemens coach is cheap (which would be an incentive to order more)?

Different TOCs co-operating, keeping production lines open, sharing new coaches across the country... IF ONLY!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Especially when you consider that at the moment the 458s are fairly reliable. Tinkering with them, like adding another carriage, could well degenerate into an utter farce!

Ah yes,the computer system is a bit twitchy.

Here I wonder what it's like in a 460...anybody know?

 

[Drsatan]

Imagine how simple the railway could be if we could co-ordinate orders like that, ensuring that the "unit cost" of each Siemens coach is cheap (which would be an incentive to order more)?

Different TOCs co-operating, keeping production lines open, sharing new coaches across the country... IF ONLY!

That's exactly what happened under BR! One of the flaws of privatisation is that rolling stock procurement has become extremely fragmented. A nationwide stock procurement program, specifying exactly what trains needed to be bought and which trains could be cascaded to displace older units, is what is needed.

Or would that degree of state intervention go against the ideals of privatisation? Hmm...I wonder....:roll:

 

[thefab444]

That's exactly what happened under BR! One of the flaws of privatisation is that rolling stock procurement has become extremely fragmented. A nationwide stock procurement program, specifying exactly what trains needed to be bought and which trains could be cascaded to displace older units, is what is needed.

Or would that degree of state intervention go against the ideals of privatisation? Hmm...I wonder....:roll:

I think if left to their own devices, the TOCs/ROSCOs would co-ordinate stock orders, especially if not directly competing, as an opportunity to save money.

But the mess of a system we have at the moment is just a shambles.

 

[WillPS]

That's exactly what happened under BR! One of the flaws of privatisation is that rolling stock procurement has become extremely fragmented. A nationwide stock procurement program, specifying exactly what trains needed to be bought and which trains could be cascaded to displace older units, is what is needed.

Or would that degree of state intervention go against the ideals of privatisation? Hmm...I wonder....:roll:

Sort of. Lets not forget NSE went as far as specifying 'their' Networkers such that they couldn't easily go north.

 

[Via Bank]

Sort of. Lets not forget NSE went as far as specifying 'their' Networkers such that they couldn't easily go north.

Aye, only for them to to then use surplus Sprinters to form the 158/159 fleet used on the West of England services from Waterloo (as opposed to more diesel Networkers.)

 

[Aictos]

It's a pity that the Class 460s were not made dual voltage capable and certainly not as large as it could have been.

By that, I mean what should have happened is a order should have been made for them to operate the Liverpool Street to Stansted, London Paddington to Heathrow and London Victoria to Gatwick services under the Stansted Express/Heathrow Express/Gatwick Express brands operated by BAA.

This would have meant that no 317s would have needed to have been converted for Stansted Express duties, the original Stansted Express 322s could have gone to Yorkshire/Scotland a lot sooner and if any 332s were ordered then Yorkshire could have requested them which would have tied in nicely should the Harrogate line ever got electrified.

No 458s would have been ordered by SWT however the order would have been changed to the same number of 334s instead, for Scotland which I'm sure this would have enabled them to boost capacity and improve journey times many times over.

 

[tbtc]

That's exactly what happened under BR! One of the flaws of privatisation is that rolling stock procurement has become extremely fragmented. A nationwide stock procurement program, specifying exactly what trains needed to be bought and which trains could be cascaded to displace older units, is what is needed.

Or would that degree of state intervention go against the ideals of privatisation? Hmm...I wonder....:roll:

Yup, we have plenty state intervention these days, but its not the good kind!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's exactly what happened under BR! One of the flaws of privatisation is that rolling stock procurement has become extremely fragmented. A nationwide stock procurement program, specifying exactly what trains needed to be bought and which trains could be cascaded to displace older units, is what is needed.

Or would that degree of state intervention go against the ideals of privatisation? Hmm...I wonder....:roll:

It's a pity that the Class 460s were not made dual voltage capable and certainly not as large as it could have been.

By that, I mean what should have happened is a order should have been made for them to operate the Liverpool Street to Stansted, London Paddington to Heathrow and London Victoria to Gatwick services under the Stansted Express/Heathrow Express/Gatwick Express brands operated by BAA.

This would have meant that no 317s would have needed to have been converted for Stansted Express duties, the original Stansted Express 322s could have gone to Yorkshire/Scotland a lot sooner and if any 332s were ordered then Yorkshire could have requested them which would have tied in nicely should the Harrogate line ever got electrified.

No 458s would have been ordered by SWT however the order would have been changed to the same number of 334s instead, for Scotland which I'm sure this would have enabled them to boost capacity and improve journey times many times over.

That sounds a good idea, and then the 460s would have been a big enough class for some economies of scale.

Out of interest, why did the 322s on Stansted get replaced by 317s? Wasn't that a step backwards?

 

[swt_passenger]

It's a pity that the Class 460s were not made dual voltage capable and certainly not as large as it could have been.

By that, I mean what should have happened is a order should have been made for them to operate the Liverpool Street to Stansted, London Paddington to Heathrow and London Victoria to Gatwick services under the Stansted Express/Heathrow Express/Gatwick Express brands operated by BAA.

AIUI if the 458s and 460s had worked out of the box Alstom would probably have had the whole SWT slam door replacement order - and it is often suggested that if that had happened Siemens would have only been a bit player or may even have stopped bothering with the UK market.

As it turned out both fleets were pretty much useless on delivery, the GatEx being years late in entering full service, and Alstom were never again asked to bid for suburban EMU orders...

 

[87015]

I think if left to their own devices, the TOCs/ROSCOs would co-ordinate stock orders, especially if not directly competing, as an opportunity to save money.

But the mess of a system we have at the moment is just a shambles.

In the early days of privatization they were largely left to their own devices. It didn't do much, if anything, for sensible fleet strategies between TOCs.

 

[tbtc]

AIUI if the 458s and 460s had worked out of the box Alstom would probably have had the whole SWT slam door replacement order - and it is often suggested that if that had happened Siemens would have only been a bit player or may even have stopped bothering with the UK market.

As it turned out both fleets were pretty much useless on delivery, the GatEx being years late in entering full service, and Alstom were never again asked to bid for suburban EMU orders...

Similarly, if Alstom had built the 180s to work then they might have won bids for

• Hull Trains Turbostar replacement - four units
• Midland Mainline Tubostar replacement - around twenty five units
• Transpennine 158 replacement (Arriva's promotional material showed four coach 180s, so its not entirely unlikely) - up to sixty units

Plus maybe that'd have encouraged some other TOCs to order 175s instead of 170s for local work. When I did the maths on it, you could have easily had five hundred coaches of 180s, which would have made them a pretty large class (and the logical next step for HST replacement?).

One of those "what if"s...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the early days of privatization they were largely left to their own devices. It didn't do much, if anything, for sensible fleet strategies between TOCs.

True, hence some of the small classes.

I suppose there's the argument about whether lots of small classes would at least be better than the *nothing* which most TOCs are ordering, but there were some big flaws in the initial system too.

 

[Goldfish62]

AIUI if the 458s and 460s had worked out of the box Alstom would probably have had the whole SWT slam door replacement order - and it is often suggested that if that had happened Siemens would have only been a bit player or may even have stopped bothering with the UK market.

As it turned out both fleets were pretty much useless on delivery, the GatEx being years late in entering full service, and Alstom were never again asked to bid for suburban EMU orders...

I remember working starting on "Juniper 2", but this was shelved once SWT went to Siemens.

The 458s are indeed very reliable now, but still rubbish trains with a very poor build quality - all that squeaking and rattling from the flexing of the body when they travel at anything above about 5mph!

 

[lm321412]

Aye, only for them to to then use surplus Sprinters to form the 158/159 fleet used on the West of England services from Waterloo (as opposed to more diesel Networkers.)

The thing is, had money issues not been a problem then i'm sure NSE would not have had the ones that RR didn't need.

In an ideal world, (eg no recession in 1990 and no money problems) then they would have certainly ordered a long distance Turbo for the West.

 

[jopsuk]

Out of interest, why did the 322s on Stansted get replaced by 317s? Wasn't that a step backwards?

Nine 317/7s replaced the five 322s, and were then bolstered by the rather less luxurious 12 317/8s.

 

[tbtc]

Nine 317/7s replaced the five 322s, and were then bolstered by the rather less luxurious 12 317/8s.

Cheers; this is one of those "changes" I wasn't sure of the details of. Was this when it went to a fifteen minute service?

 

[MCR247]

Doubt it, that probably happened when the /8s joined them

 

[jopsuk]

aye, every fifteen minutes with just nine units would mean all trains would be 4 car (I think)- based on the allocation of twenty of the 379s to provide 15 minute frequency at eight cars (including spares)

 

[Goldfish62]

I hope not, Porterbrook's is such a messy solution compared to a straight forward order of additional middle coaches for the 450/5s.

I don't disagree, but imagine another new rolling stock order going to Germany - I really can't see it happening in the current political climate.

Besides, Porterbrook was apparently the preferred bidder before the tenders expired first time round.

BTW, just why are the 450/5s so scruffy compared with the 450/0s? They never seem to go near a carriage wash.

 

[Ministry]

I was very surprised to see 460001 go flying through Redhill station around 7:30 this morning (with all it's decals and livery removed). I didn't notice if anyone was on board, but there's usually an in-service 442 running to Gatwick at that time of the morning. Does Southern still have access to the 460 fleet while it's offhire or was it out and about for other reasons?

 

[A-driver]

The 460s still keep making the odd appearance both in service and empty. They havnt been removed completely yet.

 

[Malderon]

I had barely seen a 460 for months until the recent flooding / embankment closure and now they keep popping up trundling through east croydon on services usually run by a 442 (one that passes East Croydon at around 17:14 for instance).

Is a 442 in for repair?

 

[Fincra5]

There does seem to be a 460 spare in case a 442 fails. It also keeps up drivers traction knowledge, I guess.

 

[Ministry]

I found this yesterday and it intrigued me - does anyone know what they're planning to connect the 460s to?

http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/tocnews/snn460e.html

 

[A-driver]

Think they want to try running them on the western side with their reading units (46somethings I think?)

 

[thefab444]

458s, but that's going to require some fairly major modification beyond just changing the couplings surely?

 

[swt_passenger]

458s, but that's going to require some fairly major modification beyond just changing the couplings surely?

IF the 458/460 combination comes off I expect there'll have to be various transitional stages, so it is possible 460s might run on the route in 8 car format 'pre-conversion' while some 458s are out of service being lengthened to 5 cars. Does that justify a coupling change though - presumably for rescue purposes?

Also, assuming (as we have in previous discussions) that 5+5 458/460 conversions won't actually run on the Reading route, there are impacts on the 450 diagrams as well - and the possibilty that the HC units will be converted back to normal.

Whatever happens it can't be a 'big bang', so we should stand by for some significant variations in the current SWT operations....

 

[thefab444]

FC passengers may like that, but a pre-conversion 8 460 seats nearly 200 fewer standard class passengers than an 8 458.

 

[Minstral25]

458s, but that's going to require some fairly major modification beyond just changing the couplings surely?

Maybe remove all the seating and replace with 3+2 (YUK) or Higher capacity 2+2, change the couplers and hey presto you have a 8 coach train suitable to run on SWT lines - no unit mixing with 458's at all. Very Cheap!

If you spend a bit more convert the luggage compartment of the Driving unit by installing proper doors and windows and fitting seats without changing the cab front and you have an 8-car train fully ready for a commuter service

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe remove all the seating and replace with 3+2 (YUK) or Higher capacity 2+2, change the couplers and hey presto you have a 8 coach train suitable to run on SWT lines - no unit mixing with 458's at all. Very Cheap!

If you spend a bit more convert the luggage compartment of the Driving unit by installing proper doors and windows and fitting seats without changing the cab front and you have an 8-car train fully ready for a commuter service

But it doesn't provide for 10 car services on those routes that are currently being provided with 10 car platforms at great expense by NR. If the requirement was just for more 8 car units it would be simple...

 

[HSTEd]

I like the 442s more than the modern stock I must say....
I remember riding them years ago while visiting in laws in Woking while there were still slam doors trundling about and thinking that these were up to 225 standard.....
They are just..... nice.

5WES units cant be converted to AC traction if anyone mentioned that possibility simply due to the fact the traction equipment is from the 60s (via the 4REPs) and thus predates your puny power transistors, let alone proper power electronics.

8GATs could presumably swap vehicles with the trains from that family that have pantograph pans and probably wont need them and then be sent to Manchester Airport, although I object to them being sent anywhere where I might have to look at them