Class 460s - future?

[Minstral25]

But it doesn't provide for 10 car services on those routes that are currently being provided with 10 car platforms at great expense by NR. If the requirement was just for more 8 car units it would be simple...

Agree - but there must be some routes that are not getting 10 car trains that these 8 units could be used on?

This TFL demand for 10 coach trains is causing issues everywhere as most trains in the London region are based on units of 4,8 and 12. So Southern have to bring 377/3's providing excellent service on the South Coast back to London to make a few 10 coach trains and replace with 313's. The 460's are being split and added to existing 4 coach units to make 5 coach units.

Why didn't they just make the platforms 12 coach, which they will need in about 10-15 years anyway.

TFL make DfT look positively intelligent - look at the London Overground where they spent Billions creating new lines with 4-coach maximum platform lengths and now they are the most congested lines in the South East. Already they plan to extend to 5 coach plus telling Southern to double their trains and extend to 8 coach on the WLL because their trains are too short!

 

[swt_passenger]

This isn't a 'TfL demand' as far as I can see, it was a DfT requirement on Network Rail arising from the CP4 HLOS settlement, and they are extending some platforms to 12 car, on other routes - but the SWT requirement is to take all the inner suburban routes up to 10 car.

 

[jopsuk]

What Southern could really do with is a large number of 376s, like SouthEastern (who could do with a few more)- in five car formation if that is what is decreed they need- for Metro. Or 378s with some transverse seating. Hell, get the same for SWT Metro as well- not as if the 455s, 458s and 450s can work together.
Could the ELL cope with 5 car formations? What about the NLL and Watford DC? Could be an opportunity to create a common (or near common) fleet among the "metro" operations. 10 car West anglia Metro? Obviously Shenfield and Great Western metro goes Crossrail, Great Eastern metro operations need to be 3/6 car and MML metro is already Thameslink.

 

[swt_passenger]

Could the ELL cope with 5 car formations? What about the NLL and Watford DC?

TfL have recently published detailed plans of how they want to extend LO services, station by station.

Pages 57 & 58 of this: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Item05-RUP-12-July-2011-HLOS2-recommendations.pdf

 

[Goldfish62]

Agree - but there must be some routes that are not getting 10 car trains that these 8 units could be used on?

This TFL demand for 10 coach trains is causing issues everywhere as most trains in the London region are based on units of 4,8 and 12.

TFL make DfT look positively intelligent - look at the London Overground where they spent Billions creating new lines with 4-coach maximum platform lengths and now they are the most congested lines in the South East. Already they plan to extend to 5 coach plus telling Southern to double their trains and extend to 8 coach on the WLL because their trains are too short!

As another post points out, it's nothing to do with TfL. The North Kent lines were extended to 10 car platforms years ago before TfL even existed.

The reason that the Overground is so busy is that that TfL has made a success of totally modernising run-down lines and increasing patronage massively.TfL are showing DfT how to do it - you cannot be serious that it's the other way around.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The plan to merge 458s and 460s for the Windsor, Weybridge and Hounslow lines has been common knowledge for a long time now. A detailed article on the work required appeared in Modern Railways some months ago.

As usual, it's all being held up by the DfT, but SWT state in their latest live web chat that they hope for a decision before the end of the year.

 

[MCR247]

Well there are other options than the 458/460 merger. This is actually a very expensive option, especially when you include the costs of making the 450/5s back to /0s.

Easier to just build another 28 HC 450 cars as part of the LM/TPE order for 350s.

 

[cj_1985]

As another post points out, it's nothing to do with TfL. The North Kent lines were extended to 10 car platforms years ago before TfL even existed.

The reason that the Overground is so busy is that that TfL has made a success of totally modernising run-down lines and increasing patronage massively.TfL are showing DfT how to do it - you cannot be serious that it's the other way around.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The plan to merge 458s and 460s for the Windsor, Weybridge and Hounslow lines has been common knowledge for a long time now. A detailed article on the work required appeared in Modern Railways some months ago.

As usual, it's all being held up by the DfT, but SWT state in their latest live web chat that they hope for a decision before the end of the year.

so based on the DfTs past record...
IF they make a decision by the end of this year....
allow for (whats seems like) the normal 3 or 4 months between agreement, and signing the contract
Then add in that no operator will want to have reduced fleet availability during the olympic games period (if the 458 and 460 option is chosen)....

so its probably going to be into september next year before work begins... and thats being optimistic, and avoiding smaller detaisl like where the work will be carried out (if the 458 and 460 option is chosen over additional Desiro vehicles), if done at somewhere like ilford, or doncaster... the time to award a contract to a FOC to move the units and so on...

i mean we are now what... 2 months since the formal announcement of prefered bidder for the Thameslink fleet,

Over 6 months since the announcement regarding Hitachi and the IEP (not that any delay with the IEP is a bad thing)

 

[swt_passenger]

so its probably going to be into september next year before work begins... and thats being optimistic, and avoiding smaller detaisl like where the work will be carried out (if the 458 and 460 option is chosen over additional Desiro vehicles), if done at somewhere like ilford, or doncaster...

Agree, but with a caveat that most of the 460s are not currently in use, so if the idea to split them up and rebuild their driving cab ends etc was to go ahead, there is a lot that could be done to them before involving the 458s at all - there's all the seating and internal colour schemes etc to change for a start, they could do that anytime.

How about Eastleigh and Bournemouth to share the work - Eastleigh for the heavy stuff and Bournemouth for the reformation and testing of the 5 car units? Bournemouth already does the 458 overhaul work.

 

[Minstral25]

This isn't a 'TfL demand' as far as I can see, it was a DfT requirement on Network Rail arising from the CP4 HLOS settlement, and they are extending some platforms to 12 car, on other routes - but the SWT requirement is to take all the inner suburban routes up to 10 car.

IIRC TFL requested the DfT that all South London Metro trains (SWT/SE and Southern) be a minimum of 10 car length in future franchises along with a turn up and go regularity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The reason that the Overground is so busy is that that TfL has made a success of totally modernising run-down lines and increasing patronage massively.TfL are showing DfT how to do it - you cannot be serious that it's the other way around.

The plan to merge 458s and 460s for the Windsor, Weybridge and Hounslow lines has been common knowledge for a long time now. A detailed article on the work required appeared in Modern Railways some months ago.

As usual, it's all being held up by the DfT, but SWT state in their latest live web chat that they hope for a decision before the end of the year.

Regular users of the NLL/WLL (which I was until recently) would have told you of the need for more and longer trains well before the 378's were ordered or the London Overground was invented.

Had TFL developed the line for 6 or 8 coach trains they would have saved a fortune in both cost and disruption as they are now going to have to go back and redo it. They are only suggesting 5 coach trains now but my feeling is they will need 6 coach or longer trains as soon as the 5 coach ones start running so why not get on with it in one go.

The plan to merge the 458s and 460s has been around a long time but without official sanction. TFL's attempts via the DfT to get 10 coach suburban railway has too!!

 

[swt_passenger]

TFL's attempts via the DfT to get 10 coach suburban railway has too!!

To be honest there's little point in wondering if the 10 car suburban plan was DfT's, TfL's or the SRA's initial idea.

The 2005 draft SWML RUS is the oldest thing I've got to hand, and it is all discussed in there, shame nothing ever happened...

 

[Goldfish62]

Regular users of the NLL/WLL (which I was until recently) would have told you of the need for more and longer trains well before the 378's were ordered or the London Overground was invented.

London Overground:
New rolling stock
All stations repainted and staffed throughout traffic day
Rebuilt and extended east London Line
West London line:
3 car to 4 car; 2 tph to 4 tph
North London line:
3 car to 4 car; Willesden Junc - Stratford: 4 tph to 6 tph

If this had been in the hands of the DfT we'd still be awaiting a decision on all the above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so based on the DfTs past record...
IF they make a decision by the end of this year....
allow for (whats seems like) the normal 3 or 4 months between agreement, and signing the contract
Then add in that no operator will want to have reduced fleet availability during the olympic games period (if the 458 and 460 option is chosen)....

so its probably going to be into september next year before work begins... and thats being optimistic, and avoiding smaller detaisl like where the work will be carried out (if the 458 and 460 option is chosen over additional Desiro vehicles), if done at somewhere like ilford, or doncaster... the time to award a contract to a FOC to move the units and so on...

i mean we are now what... 2 months since the formal announcement of prefered bidder for the Thameslink fleet,

Over 6 months since the announcement regarding Hitachi and the IEP (not that any delay with the IEP is a bad thing)

Completely agree.

In fact the timeline of this project is a whole sorry saga.

The original decision from DfT was expected in 2009. Instead they dithered. In May 2010 the new Government called a temporary halt to all new railway projects. Once it restarted the DfT continued to dither and the original tenders expired. SWT had to invite new tenders this year, and have just resubmitted their recommendation (still believed to 458/460 merger) to DfT.

The original 10-car Windsor lines project was supposed to be implemented in Dec 2010. NR will now have the platform extension complete ready for Dec 2012, but fat chance of any rolling stock being available by then.

Pathetic!

 

[HSTEd]

Shouldnt we decide whether new multiple units would be four or five coaches long and then have one or the other (or multiples thereof) rather than ordering a bunch of different classes in different lengths?

There seems to have been dithering on this since the 442s were built as far as I can tell.

3 coach, 5 coach and 10 coach seems reasonable to me.

 

[swt_passenger]

The original 10-car Windsor lines project was supposed to be implemented in Dec 2010. NR will now have the platform extension complete ready for Dec 2012, but fat chance of any rolling stock being available by then.

Pathetic!

I reckon the meetings went like this for the first couple of years:

NR - 'Right, we'll start building once you order some trains.'
SWT - 'we can't order any trains without a guarantee you'll start building.'
DfT - 'twiddles thumbs and says nothng'...

 

[dubscottie]

A question about the 460's.. How did the Class 73 (named Dave Berry cant remember the No) couple to these units in service? Buckeye? I have seen pics of the door light on the side of the 73 and have always wondered if it was coupled using the old 27-way jumper system on the Southern Region and could a 73 propel a dead 460?

Aye, only for them to to then use surplus Sprinters to form the 158/159 fleet used on the West of England services from Waterloo (as opposed to more diesel Networkers.)

There is a lot more to that story than you think..

NSE wanted a Class 171 (new build) for the West of England and the Government of the time said go whistle.

The deal was that NSE would take over some services to the West Midlands and Regional Railways would in turn release 158's to NSE for conversion to 159's. Both parties ended up happy. NSE got their units and RR got rid of lines it did not want to run.

Class 165/6's would have been useless as, has been posted elsewhere, they are a bit wider than the loading gauge on most lines further north. (as far as I am aware.. could just be the steps)

 

[jopsuk]

Well, they sort of are. 165s and 166s would be fine almost anywhere if all platforms were straight, as I understand it. They're the same width as almost all 20m long stock, but are 23m long- all the other 23m stock, such as 168s, 170s, Mark 3 carriages etc is slightly (about 10cm) narrower.

At the start of the 90s, if NSE had got their way, they would have had some sort of Networker on every single service they ran. Whatever they would have got for the West of England they'd have had specified to ensure gauging wouldn't have been an issue.