Class 460s - future?

[ainsworth74]

sorry this is not really relevent to this thread but would it be at all possible to convert 456's to AC power?

Unlikely as it's only modern units (think post-privatization) that can be converted over to AC power from DC.

 

[Pumbaa]

Unlikely as it's only modern units (think post-privatization) that can be converted over to AC power from DC.

460s are modern/post-privatisation, but nonetheless they do not have pantograph wells making it very difficult/impossible.

 

[ainsworth74]

460s are modern/post-privatisation, but nonetheless they do not have pantograph wells making it very difficult/impossible.

Yeah I know that but was speaking in general terms

 

[A-driver]

460s are still running some GX services but most have gone to 442s. This is partly as 460s are so much more expensive to run and maintain compared to 442s and also southern are trying to get away with merging GX and southern together as much as possible without upsetting the DFT. That is why the 442s have 'express' branding and don't mention Gatwick-they can run as Brighton or Gatwick expresses and even provide the rush hour London bridge-Eastbourne services.

Rumour has been there for ages that 460s will go to SWT but not sure if it's true, there have also been rumours of SWT taking 456s but that is apparently not happening now as they won't be cleared on certain diagrams due to shunts which they can't do.

 

[RobShipway]

The rumour I heard is that the coaches from the class 460 trains would be added to some of the class 458's that SWT use to make ten car trains on the London Waterloo Reading service, however I am sure stations such as Martins Heron near where I live will need extending to be able to cope with 10 car trains, unless they are to be used alongside the class 444 trains on the Waterloo - Bournemouth/Poole/Weymouth route in some way?

 

[fgwrich]

The rumour I heard is that the coaches from the class 460 trains would be added to some of the class 458's that SWT use to make ten car trains on the London Waterloo Reading service, however I am sure stations such as Martins Heron near where I live will need extending to be able to cope with 10 car trains, unless they are to be used alongside the class 444 trains on the Waterloo - Bournemouth/Poole/Weymouth route in some way?

Which in a way, gives me an idea...

With 3 fast trains per hour from Portsmouth, and 3 Fast trains per hour to Portsmouth, could they be modifed and refurbished to be used on the Portsmouth Harbour fast services?

Sorts out the issue of the 450s used on the fast services, keeps them in DC Land...Although of course it would mean a reduction in seat numbers themselves, although that issue could be tackled through a deccent refurbishement?

Just a quick 5 minute idea!

 

[swt_passenger]

The rumour I heard is that the coaches from the class 460 trains would be added to some of the class 458's that SWT use to make ten car trains on the London Waterloo - Reading service...

But this proposal isn't for the Reading services themselves. The 10 car suburban plans don't yet include stations between Virginia Water and Reading, so there would be a swap of units. Basically the 28 HC Desiros used on Windsor services etc would be reverted back to normal, and used on the Reading line vice 458s, and the modified 458/460 fleet would become the HC 'standard class only' fleet. This is why SWT issued a tender for more 450 vehicles originally - it would be a much more straightforward solution.

No change to the long distance services are planned at all.

...and to answer the obvious question, the 12 car platforms at Reading are being done now because it is significantly cheaper to do all the capacity improvements together, as it is a very constrained site.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorts out the issue of the 450s used on the fast services, keeps them in DC Land...Although of course it would mean a reduction in seat numbers themselves, although that issue could be tackled through a deccent refurbishement?

It doesn't give any advantages though if you try and replace 450s. You cannot path any more trains on the route in the peaks, and as you point out the 460s have less capacity than the trains you are replacing - so the first thing you'd have to do is to replace the GatEx seating with 2+3 throughout standard.

A possible solution is then to run them vice single 444s, and use the displaced 444s to double up other single 444 services...

 

[Lampshade]

442s are far nicer trains than Junipers anyway (dare I say the best third rail train ever?).

I couldn't disagree with you more

460s are modern/post-privatisation, but nonetheless they do not have pantograph wells making it very difficult/impossible.

Well given the 458s are likely to spend their lives on third rail routes, surely the answer is to swap the PTSO on the 458s with a TSO from the 460s?

 

[asylumxl]

I couldn't disagree with you more

I agree with you.

 

[thefab444]

With 3 fast trains per hour from Portsmouth, and 3 Fast trains per hour to Portsmouth, could they be modifed and refurbished to be used on the Portsmouth Harbour fast services?

Sorts out the issue of the 450s used on the fast services, keeps them in DC Land...Although of course it would mean a reduction in seat numbers themselves, although that issue could be tackled through a deccent refurbishement?

There's actually only two fast trains per hour between Waterloo and Portsmouth, the third train is a stopping service.

Personally I would like to see the 460s refurbished to replace the luggage van with passenger accomodation and then put on a new Waterloo - Reading "faster" service. The calling pattern being something like Waterloo > Clapham > Richmond > Feltham > Staines > Egham > Ascot > Bracknell > Wokingham > Reading, although I accept it would probably be very difficult to path within the existing timetable.

 

[T163R]

I couldn't disagree with you more

Is that why you have a Juniper avatar ?

 

[Aictos]

It's a pity the 458s didn't go to Scotland to bolster the 334s and replace them with even more 444s/450s,

 

[NIMBUS]

Rumour has been there for ages that 460s will go to SWT but not sure if it's true, there have also been rumours of SWT taking 456s but that is apparently not happening now as they won't be cleared on certain diagrams due to shunts which they can't do.

Which would have been ironic, as the 456s were originally ordered for the South Western division of BR, to strengthen the 455s to six cars on some diagrams. By the time of delivery they had been diverted to South Central.

 

[Lampshade]

Is that why you have a Juniper avatar ?

Indeed, I am quite the 458 aficionado

 

[Juniper Driver]

Indeed, I am quite the 458 aficionado

Good god,there are two of us....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sat on a 460 at the moment - the 1250 from Gatwick to Vic. They are awesome. They are quite obviously built for airport runs, but there's nothing a quick refurb wouldn't change! I think I'm in love

 

[Lampshade]

Good god,there are two of us....

019? Hmph

<---- 022

 

[Nym]

Silly idea? Couldn't they be used for Heathrow Airtrack by SWT?

 

[swt_passenger]

Silly idea? Couldn't they be used for Heathrow Airtrack by SWT?

Airtrack has been binned completely by BAA, but would have needed dual voltage units anyway.

OTOH I've got an idea they'll end up as four car units up north somewhere, (with new cabs and AC gear fitted as required), and the solution to SWT's lengthening will be something different; if only because the 458/460 merger plan has gone incredibly quiet...

 

[ainsworth74]

Silly idea? Couldn't they be used for Heathrow Airtrack by SWT?

Wouldn't that actually need to be built first? For that matter hasn't it been abandoned due to BAA not being able to sort out the finance side of things (lack of government support I think)?

 

[jopsuk]

There's "lack of government support", and then there's "it would have caused the barriers to be down for much longer in the parliamentary constituency of the most petrol-headed transport minister we've seen in a long time".

 

[fgwrich]

Wouldn't that actually need to be built first? For that matter hasn't it been abandoned due to BAA not being able to sort out the finance side of things (lack of government support I think)?

Though off topic for the moment, Mr beloved Hammond did have a part to play in the killing of Airtrack - The issues of his hatred of Level Crossings, especially in his parlimentary area, which unfortunatly Airtrack would have been running through and adding to the length of time spent waiting to cross...

 

[TomJ93]

surely the answer is to swap the PTSO on the 458s with a TSO from the 460s?

Get out of here, what the hell do you think you're doing bringing logic to the railways? :roll:

 

[Juniper Driver]

019? Hmph

<---- 022

I must admit 022 looks great in the sunshine....

 

[43021HST]

Good god,there are two of us....

Do you two know each other from being in Broadmoor?

 

[Goldfish62]

Airtrack has been binned completely by BAA, but would have needed dual voltage units anyway.

OTOH I've got an idea they'll end up as four car units up north somewhere, (with new cabs and AC gear fitted as required), and the solution to SWT's lengthening will be something different; if only because the 458/460 merger plan has gone incredibly quiet...

Railway Eye reports that the 458/460 merger was just awaiting formal approval by DfT, but they spent so long faffing about that the tender expired. Apparently, SWT have had to get new quotes from the original bidders (Porterbrook and Siemens), which are now being evaluated before the preferred bid once again goes to DfT for approval.

My guess is that no way will DfT select Siemens in the current climate and that Porterbrook will still get the work, albeit heavily delayed.

The SWT platform extensions are gathering pace now, with completion, I believe, for the December 2012 timetable. I can see no way now that the 10 car trains are going to be ready in time.

 

[thefab444]

My guess is that no way will DfT select Siemens in the current climate and that Porterbrook will still get the work, albeit heavily delayed.

I hope not, Porterbrook's is such a messy solution compared to a straight forward order of additional middle coaches for the 450/5s.

 

[Pumbaa]

I hope not, Porterbrook's is such a messy solution compared to a straight forward order of additional middle coaches for the 450/5s.

Quite - I really don't know why it was considered in the first place really. I remember the original plan had co-operation with the LM/TPE order for additional Desiros too, Siemens identified ordering the lot in one go would have significant savings than ordering it piecemeal.

But no... :roll:

 

[Juniper Driver]

Do you two know each other from being in Broadmoor?

Sad person,nice insult.

 

[thefab444]

Quite - I really don't know why it was considered in the first place really. I remember the original plan had co-operation with the LM/TPE order for additional Desiros too, Siemens identified ordering the lot in one go would have significant savings than ordering it piecemeal.

But no... :roll:

Especially when you consider that at the moment the 458s are fairly reliable. Tinkering with them, like adding another carriage, could well degenerate into an utter farce!