Class 458/5

[David Goddard]

Fair comment, but I still suspect the 36 units will reach the end of their service life well before they run out of DC infrastructure to be used on...

36 five car EMUs with 1/3 and 2/3 door configurations?
Brighton Main Line anyone?

 

[joeykins82]

Gatwick to Brighton is one of the candidates for AC conversion after Basingstoke to Southampton/Poole, and Brighton is operated by 12 car sets so swapping to 10s would be a step backwards in capacity.

 

[southern442]

Gatwick to Brighton is one of the candidates for AC conversion after Basingstoke to Southampton/Poole, and Brighton is operated by 12 car sets so swapping to 10s would be a step backwards in capacity.

Probably a naive question but what is the purpose of the Basingstoke-Southampton AC conversion? Wouldn't it just create a bit of trouble with the surrounding lines?

 

[edwin_m]

Probably a naive question but what is the purpose of the Basingstoke-Southampton AC conversion? Wouldn't it just create a bit of trouble with the surrounding lines?

25kV wastes a lot less power than 750V, and with a lot of the DC supply equipment due for replacement the view is that it would be cheaper in the long run to convert the 750V network to 25kV. Basingstoke-Southampton is intended as a pilot route because the EMUs that use it can be converted reasonably easily to dual voltage, and in conjunction with other electrifications there is the possibility of the diesel Cross Country and freight services going over to electric haulage too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Probably a naive question but what is the purpose of the Basingstoke-Southampton AC conversion? Wouldn't it just create a bit of trouble with the surrounding lines?

The DfT's explanation is basically based on providing an electrified freight spine from Southampton Docks, via Didcot, Oxford and Leamington and joining the WCML at Coventry, or via EWR and the MML towards Sheffield and Leeds. Having provided that facility they then hope that the FOCs will look at electric traction.

There are also the perceived cost savings because renewal of the power supply on that part of the route is required shortly anyway - and research has found that AC is cheaper all round.

Any new passenger flows that are made available seem to me to be a secondary effect:

6. The strategy is built around four priorities. The first of these is the creation of the “Electric Spine”, a high capacity passenger and freight electric corridor running from the South Coast through Oxford, Bedford and via the Midland Main Line to the East Midlands and South Yorkshire, with a link from Oxford to the West Midlands and the North-West. The Electric Spine investment is expected to deliver cost savings to the railway in the medium term, because electric rolling stock has lower purchase, maintenance and fuel costs. It also leads to choices for further efficient route electrification in Control Period 6 (CP6).
7. The creation of an electrified route linking the core centres of population and economic activity in the Midlands and North with the major container port of Southampton is a crucial step in creating the right conditions for significant private sector investment in electric freight locomotives, which offer more efficient, capable and sustainable freight haulage. The rolling programme of electrification is expected to help make rail freight commercially more attractive across England, supporting our growing international trade and the transfer of container traffic from road.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/3641/railways-act-2005.pdf

This is getting a bit off-topic for this thread though...

 

[Eagle]

there is the possibility of the diesel Cross Country and freight services going over to electric haulage too.

Specifically, electric haulage that doesn't require dual voltage.

 

[jopsuk]

Probably a naive question but what is the purpose of the Basingstoke-Southampton AC conversion? Wouldn't it just create a bit of trouble with the surrounding lines?

due to transmission losses, 750V DC needs feeds from the grid every couple of miles. 25kV AC is vastly more efficient, requiring connections to the grid that are far more widely spaced. As others have mentioned, the SWML DC equipment is elderly, and despite upgrades to help with modern stock, is needing complete renewal. All the DC stock running through the section is AC-capable.

 

[Muzer]

there is the possibility of the diesel Cross Country [...] going over to electric haulage too.

Only if they also electrify Southampton to Bournemouth, or stop running these services as far as Bournemouth.

All the DC stock running through the section is AC-capable.

Indeed - but both SWT and Southern stock would need to be upgraded, unless they want to get rid of the Southern --> Fareham --> Eastleigh --> Southampton Airport (Parkway) --> Southampton Central services (dual-voltage is going to be from Redbridge to St. Denys). So this means all 377s, 444s and 450s would need dual-voltage support.

 

[Eagle]

Only if they also electrify Southampton to Bournemouth, or stop running these services as far as Bournemouth.

Or swap it round so that Southampton/Reading terminators go to Manchester (electric), and Bournemouth services go to Newcastle (diesel for the forseeable future).

 

[The Ham]

These are the testbed for new dedicated coaches for use by cyclists.

Which they can then lease to Southern for the London-Brighton cycle ride.

 

[WestCountry]

Indeed - but both SWT and Southern stock would need to be upgraded, unless they want to get rid of the Southern --> Fareham --> Eastleigh --> Southampton Airport (Parkway) --> Southampton Central services (dual-voltage is going to be from Redbridge to St. Denys). So this means all 377s, 444s and 450s would need dual-voltage support.

Why 'all'? Southern already manage a subfleet of dual-voltage units (the 377/2s) for WLL and WCML services.
By the time Southampton is done they'll probably have got the /5s and a few more /2s back from Thameslink, which should give them easily enough dual-voltage units to run the service without touching any of the DC-only ones.

 

[Muzer]

Or swap it round so that Southampton/Reading terminators go to Manchester (electric), and Bournemouth services go to Newcastle (diesel for the forseeable future).

Unless service patterns drastically change, that would mean very few services to Manchester (just as there are currently very few trains to Newcastle/Scotland).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why 'all'? Southern already manage a subfleet of dual-voltage units (the 377/2s) for WLL and WCML services.
By the time Southampton is done they'll probably have got the /5s and a few more /2s back from Thameslink, which should give them easily enough dual-voltage units to run the service without touching any of the DC-only ones.

Good point, that's fair enough - I suppose it shouldn't be too hard for them to organise it so that the few trains that go via Eastleigh are dual-voltage ones. It would cause more of an issue for diversions, so I reckon they would need enough to replace all services if there were a diversion.

 

[Eagle]

Unless service patterns drastically change, that would mean very few services to Manchester (just as there are currently very few trains to Newcastle/Scotland).

I'd assume that if new electric stock was purchased then all the services that currently terminate at Reading would probably be extended to Southampton, so it keeps its 1tph to Manchester. (Bournemouth and Brockenhurst lose their 1tph to Manchester but get 1tph to Newcastle instead.)

 

[Muzer]

Is there enough capacity for that? I always assumed (possibly incorrectly) that it was SWML capacity (lack thereof) that prevented this from happening.

 

[Eagle]

No, it's lack of Voyagers that's preventing it mainly (the only reason they were able to extend to Southampton in the first place is because of the HSTs XC introduced freeing some up).

Having to run to Glasgow every other hour now that East Coast has dropped their Glasgow services hasn't helped.

 

[swt_passenger]

No, it's lack of Voyagers that's preventing it mainly (the only reason they were able to extend to Southampton in the first place is because of the HSTs XC introduced freeing some up)...

Not according to the GWML RUS. They explained that existing freight paths prevented the extensions running hourly. I quoted the relevant paragraph in the 2010 thread about these services:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=486056&postcount=4

 

[southern442]

Why 'all'? Southern already manage a subfleet of dual-voltage units (the 377/2s) for WLL and WCML services.
By the time Southampton is done they'll probably have got the /5s and a few more /2s back from Thameslink, which should give them easily enough dual-voltage units to run the service without touching any of the DC-only ones.

Plus the 377/6's will be dual voltage.

I appear to have drifted the thread a bit off topic, we need to get back to the main subject.

 

[Manchester77]

According to the SWT Yahoo Group 458534 is due for delivery to SWT this Friday, 6 Sept. Hooray!!!

Yay that'd make sense for the November service date! So this time next year SWT will have 485/5s, 456s and an additional fleet of 5 car EMUs on their way. Wow

 

[shedman]

Drove past a driving vehicle on the M1 heading northbound Sunday morning at around 1100

 

[Goldfish62]

Drove past a driving vehicle on the M1 heading northbound Sunday morning at around 1100

I assume this must be for the second unit and heading to Doncaster for joining.

 

[Monty]

The first unit is expected to be delivered to Wimbledon Park today, does anyone have the timings for the move? I'm on the Mainline today and it would be nice to get a cheeky photo.

 

[Dstock7080]

I noticed 2 4-car 458/0 on separate roads in Wimbledon Park this morning, next to go?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I noticed 2 4-car 458/0 on separate roads in Wimbledon Park this morning, next to go?

I doubt the 458/0s will be going just yet. I thought most of the 458/5s would be in service before they went.

 

[Goldfish62]

I doubt the 458/0s will be going just yet. I thought most of the 458/5s would be in service before they went.

I think the original plan was to send the first pair of 458/0s away once the first 458/5s were in service, but this may well have changed due to the late running of the program.

 

[455driver]

I doubt the 458/0s will be going just yet. I thought most of the 458/5s would be in service before they went.

How does that work then?
The 458/0s will be turned into 458/5s once most of the 6 460s have been converted to 458/5s, hardly "most of the 458/5s would be in service before they went" is it.

 

[cjmillsnun]

How does that work then?
The 458/0s will be turned into 458/5s once most of the 6 460s have been converted to 458/5s, hardly "most of the 458/5s would be in service before they went" is it.

OK badly worded, you're right I meant the 460 converted 458/5s rather then the 458/0 converted ones.

 

[fgwrich]

I assume this must be for the second unit and heading to Doncaster for joining.

Possibly not, unless this was just being turned - looks like BRUSH though.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...17144264.36561.162638680551751&type=1&theater

 

[Goldfish62]

I doubt the 458/0s will be going just yet. I thought most of the 458/5s would be in service before they went.

RAIL this month reports that 8001/2 will be off up North as soon as the first two 458/5s enter service, expected on October.

 

[442Haz]

they do have a certain charm about them, no denying it. The black should be extended to the whole upper cab though. And interesting to see where the unit numbers and dot matrix will go

 

[WarrenTManager]

they do have a certain charm about them, no denying it. The black should be extended to the whole upper cab though. And interesting to see where the unit numbers and dot matrix will go

The dot matrix is above the gangway where it is on a 458/0. The numbers should be going above the windows like a Desiro.

8004 will likely be one of the first two now as it had impact damage following a fatality a while back. It can't be coupled at one end, but repairing it and then chopping about with it would be a bit of a waste.