Class 458/5

[TunnelRat]

Head on shot of unit

 

[Manchester77]

Actually looks pretty decent

 

[TunnelRat]

Looks good in my opininon

 

[southern442]

Looks like it used to, a bit.

 

[Eagle]

Looks good from that specific angle. Tilt your head a few degrees to one side and they become ugly again

 

[Goldfish62]

Latest update from SWT:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/longertrains.aspx

Looks like delivery has slipped again. Now six months late.

 

[southern442]

Latest update from SWT:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/longertrains.aspx

Looks like delivery has slipped again. Now six months late.

Notice how it says "these trains (the 460) have been transformed into these trains (458/5)" as if it's something to be proud of.

 

[Goldfish62]

Notice how it says "these trains (the 460) have been transformed into these trains (458/5)" as if it's something to be proud of.

Indeed!

 

[Urban Gateline]

Looks good from that specific angle. Tilt your head a few degrees to one side and they become ugly again

Another view and some further info

 

[jopsuk]

I still hope there's a lower fairing to come...

 

[swt_passenger]

Looks like it used to, a bit.

Really? It used to be a 460, so you think it looks a bit like a 460?

 

[southern442]

Really? It used to be a 460, so you think it looks a bit like a 460?

Oh yeah, forgot it was a 460. However there are a few photos on the internet that show the 460s without the Vader mask, which if you remove the Gangway, aren't too far off.

 

[D365]

Oh yeah, forgot it was a 460. However there are a few photos on the internet that show the 460s without the Vader mask, which if you remove the Gangway, aren't too far off.

As posted on a separate thread, a SWT article with a "before and after" of the first converted driving vehicle:

Meanwhile, SWT have published a public version of the info that's filtering out via staff newsletters:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/longertrains.aspx

Includes a pair of comparison photos of a 460 cab and the 'new' cab...

The page also includes links to a diagram of the network showing where platform extensions have been or are being done, and in a separate section about ASDO, mentions that carriage numbers will be displayed internally, (like SN). I wonder if they'll also have those annoying irrelevant messages about which coach you're in when a unit is running singly...

 

[The Ham]

As posted on a separate thread, a SWT article with a "before and after" of the first converted driving vehicle:

The link also says

Two of the units being refurbished are being converted from former luggage vans. This conversion includes cutting out new windows and replacing the roller shutter doors with conventional power doors.

Which implies that the luggage vans weren't as costly to convert as some had thought.

 

[jopsuk]

As far as I'd understood it the doors going in in place of the shutters are the ones from the "spare" luggage vans? as there's 8 of them, of which four will be used.

 

[SprinterMan]

As far as I'd understood it the doors going in in place of the shutters are the ones from the "spare" luggage vans? as there's 8 of them, of which four will be used.

That is correct

 

[swt_passenger]

Which implies that the luggage vans weren't as costly to convert as some had thought.

I don't think there was ever any suggestion that it was costly to convert four of them, the problem was going to be doing all eight, because they'd then have needed eight extra sets of doors, and they were no longer in production.

However once the use of 60 cars out of the 64 was originally announced, four were always known to be up for conversion so it should not be a surprise.

 

[D365]

That about the former luggage vans is correct. Also, are the 458/5s capable of being retrofitted with AC pickup? What I've heard is that the 458s were (hence being suggested for ScotRail way back when) but that the 460s weren't as they were expected to live out their lives on a DC BML... How quickly things change.

 

[Monty]

That about the former luggage vans is correct. Also, are the 458/5s capable of being retrofitted with AC pickup? What I've heard is that the 458s were (hence being suggested for ScotRail way back when) but that the 460s weren't as they were expected to live out their lives on a DC BML... How quickly things change.

I was thinking about this, 458/5's wholly derived from ex 460 vehicles will not have a provision for a pantograph in the event the South Western division of the old SR was ever converted to OHLE. I would of thought conversion would be possible but it would potentially require yet more lengthy work unlike the 450/444s and original 458 fleet which more or less have a 'plug in and play' capability when it comes to conversion to 25kv AC.

 

[The Ham]

I was thinking about this, 458/5's wholly derived from ex 460 vehicles will not have a provision for a pantograph in the South Western division of the old SR was ever converted to OHLE. I would of thought conversion would be possible but it would potentially require yet more lengthy work unlike the 450/444s and original 458 fleet which more or less have a 'plug in and play' capability when it comes to conversion to 25kv AC.

Given that the 460's would be about 20 years through their life by the time Basingstoke to Southampton is compleated, it is likely that enough of the SWT's network would still be only third rail for long enough for it not to be a problem.

Even if it does become a problem it is likely that Crossrail 2 will have been built with lots of shiny new trains to allow the 460 derived 458/5's to go elsewhere if needed. As we are only talking about 6 vehicles it shouldn't be hard to find a self contained line or two for them to run on.

 

[joeykins82]

Even if it does become a problem it is likely that Crossrail 2 will have been built with lots of shiny new trains to allow the 460 derived 458/5's to go elsewhere if needed. As we are only talking about 6 vehicles it shouldn't be hard to find a self contained line or two for them to run on.

Merseyrail?

 

[jopsuk]

I was thinking about this, 458/5's wholly derived from ex 460 vehicles will not have a provision for a pantograph in the event the South Western division of the old SR was ever converted to OHLE. I would of thought conversion would be possible but it would potentially require yet more lengthy work unlike the 450/444s and original 458 fleet which more or less have a 'plug in and play' capability when it comes to conversion to 25kv AC.

Are you sure about this? Is it not possible that the work being done to them includes structural work to included a pantograph well and other associated work to bring them in line with the rest of the fleet and make them "plug and play"?

 

[joeykins82]

Page 91 of the RSSB research programme document on converting the 3rd rail DC network to OHLE AC has a schedule of the rolling stock used on the DC network; the 458s and 460s are listed as "dual voltage conversion difficult" which came as something of a surprise considering that there's a pantograph well. Perhaps there's no space for the other requisite AC equipment or it'd need to be custom designed and built (and therefore expensive) since the stock is 15 years old. As you'd expect the Desiro and Electrostar families are easiest to convert; the 442, 455, 456 (and 508) listed as "very difficult".

 

[swt_passenger]

The 458s were already looked at back in 2006 for conversion, when they were due off lease from SWT, and a couple of the rail mags reported it was not cost effective, although possible.

 

[Monty]

Page 91 of the RSSB research programme document on converting the 3rd rail DC network to OHLE AC has a schedule of the rolling stock used on the DC network; the 458s and 460s are listed as "dual voltage conversion difficult" which came as something of a surprise considering that there's a pantograph well. Perhaps there's no space for the other requisite AC equipment or it'd need to be custom designed and built (and therefore expensive) since the stock is 15 years old. As you'd expect the Desiro and Electrostar families are easiest to convert; the 442, 455, 456 (and 508) listed as "very difficult".

The Class 460s do not have a pantograph well, though the 458s do.

Are you sure about this? Is it not possible that the work being done to them includes structural work to included a pantograph well and other associated work to bring them in line with the rest of the fleet and make them "plug and play"?

As far as I am aware, there are no plans to add pantograph wells to the 458/5s made up entirely from ex460 vehicles. And from the pictures already released by SWT there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

[jopsuk]

The 458s were already looked at back in 2006 for conversion, when they were due off lease from SWT, and a couple of the rail mags reported it was not cost effective, although possible.

Cost effectivness though is context sensitive- it may not have been cost effective to convert them for use on a new or existing AC system, but it may in future be cost effective to convert as part of a wholescale DC-AC route conversion.

 

[swt_passenger]

Cost effectivness though is context sensitive- it may not have been cost effective to convert them for use on a new or existing AC system, but it may in future be cost effective to convert as part of a wholescale DC-AC route conversion.

Fair comment, but I still suspect the 36 units will reach the end of their service life well before they run out of DC infrastructure to be used on...

 

[Muzer]

Two of the units being refurbished are being converted from former luggage vans. This conversion includes cutting out new windows and replacing the roller shutter doors with conventional power doors.

No mention of seats, I hope they don't forget to add those

 

[Helvellyn]

No mention of seats, I hope they don't forget to add those

These are the testbed for new dedicated coaches for use by cyclists.

 

[Goldfish62]

According to the SWT Yahoo Group 458534 is due for delivery to SWT this Friday, 6 Sept. Hooray!!!