Class 458/5

[455driver]

I wonder with the benefit of hindsight if the current day SWT successors to the SR CM&EE department are thinking the same.

Why?
It wasn't their idea to strengthen the 458s, it was a DaFT decision and had bugger all to do with SWT.

 

[swt_passenger]

In my ompinion they should've kept the original livery...

It's already been explained earlier in the thread that the existing livery was wrong, because it predated SWT's decision to go 'blue' for the outer suburban stock.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Why?
It wasn't their idea to strengthen the 458s, it was a DaFT decision and had bugger all to do with SWT.

Agreed, had it been SWT's decision, they would've gone to Siemens for a few 5 coach 450s.

 

[3141]

If I remember correctly, there were two possibilities: extra class 450 trailers to make some of them 5 cars, or use almost all the redundant class 460s to lengthen the class 458s. The second option avoided the wastefulness of 64 class 460 coaches sitting unused, and was cheaper because it was conversion work and not new build. If the DfT had ignored the second option and chosen the more expensive first one there'd have been plenty of people complaining about an extravagant waste of money.

So the option of lengthening the class 458s has turned out to be difficult and problematic. Is that the DfT's fault? Or the fault of Alstom and Wabtec who are doing the work? Or of Porterbrook for inadequately analysing what the job required?

 

[southern442]

If I remember correctly, there were two possibilities: extra class 450 trailers to make some of them 5 cars, or use almost all the redundant class 460s to lengthen the class 458s. The second option avoided the wastefulness of 64 class 460 coaches sitting unused, and was cheaper because it was conversion work and not new build. If the DfT had ignored the second option and chosen the more expensive first one there'd have been plenty of people complaining about an extravagant waste of money.

So the option of lengthening the class 458s has turned out to be difficult and problematic. Is that the DfT's fault? Or the fault of Alstom and Wabtec who are doing the work? Or of Porterbrook for inadequately analysing what the job required?

I would say the last one, because it wasn't until the work started that most of the problems were found. Then again I don't know much, I'm not a railway worker, and I am probably being naive.

 

[swt_passenger]

If I remember correctly, there were two possibilities: extra class 450 trailers to make some of them 5 cars, or use almost all the redundant class 460s to lengthen the class 458s.

The ITT wasn't actually that specific, it was for "120 - 180 vehicles to operate in 5 car formation". The combined effect of the 60 ex 460 vehicles and the 48 x 456 vehicles slightly undershoots the low end of that range; therefore I suspect what they originally wanted was a mixture of additional 450 cars and some additional new units as well, primarily because if that number of single cars had ever been delivered they'd have had enough for all the 450s and some left over. As extending every 450 to 5 car would have had a serious effect on the ability to run 12 car trains, so the solution must have been more complicated?

 

[DY444]

Why?
It wasn't their idea to strengthen the 458s, it was a DaFT decision and had bugger all to do with SWT.

SWT have their paw prints all over this so to imply that they just stood at the back and watched whilst this project was forced upon them is just plain wrong. Yes DfT wanted the cheapest solution (but so incidentally did some key decision makers at Stagecoach) but SWT negotiated and placed the contract and specified the operational requirements. I know that the SWT stakeholders were privately advised quite early on that there was a far higher degree of risk in this project than was being catered for.

The ROSCO, Alstom, Dft and SWT all share some of the blame. A blindly optimistic application of the infamously flawed NASA paradigm of "faster, better, cheaper", failure to understand the whole life costs, poor understanding of the condition of the asset being converted, a ludicrous decision to start with the hardest part of the conversion rather than the easiest and thus build up knowledge and experience of the work incrementally, driving the project plan from the end date instead of the work content and a dozen more examples from the "how not to conceive and execute a project" play book. All parties involved in this are complicit to a lesser or greater extent in the current SNAFU including SWT.

For reputational preservation it is understandable that SWT would now wish it to be known that "it wasn't us guv" but they have had many opportunities to drive this in a different way but didn't.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much has the conversion work cost so far compared to what a new build of 450s would have cost?

 

[Domh245]

I'd imagine the cost of the physical conversion is almost certainly a lot less than the equivalent new build stock, but when it is all done, the additional costs in penalties etc will probably make things quite evenly levelled, especially if it were siemens emus, for the most part famed for their reliability during introduction.

 

[user15681]

Learnt earlier that 458005 has gone off to Wabtec this week... by road! (nlogax mentioned this on the previous page)

Also 458536 is all formed up, numbered etc and ready for delivery.

 

[Goldfish62]

SWT have their paw prints all over this so to imply that they just stood at the back and watched whilst this project was forced upon them is just plain wrong. Yes DfT wanted the cheapest solution (but so incidentally did some key decision makers at Stagecoach) but SWT negotiated and placed the contract and specified the operational requirements. I know that the SWT stakeholders were privately advised quite early on that there was a far higher degree of risk in this project than was being catered for.

The ROSCO, Alstom, Dft and SWT all share some of the blame. A blindly optimistic application of the infamously flawed NASA paradigm of "faster, better, cheaper", failure to understand the whole life costs, poor understanding of the condition of the asset being converted, a ludicrous decision to start with the hardest part of the conversion rather than the easiest and thus build up knowledge and experience of the work incrementally, driving the project plan from the end date instead of the work content and a dozen more examples from the "how not to conceive and execute a project" play book. All parties involved in this are complicit to a lesser or greater extent in the current SNAFU including SWT.

For reputational preservation it is understandable that SWT would now wish it to be known that "it wasn't us guv" but they have had many opportunities to drive this in a different way but didn't.

I was going to reply along similar lines but you have said it all much eloquently. The blame game is a favourite preoccupation of our fragmented railway, but rarely is any party completely blameless.

 

[hassaanhc]

SWT have their paw prints all over this so to imply that they just stood at the back and watched whilst this project was forced upon them is just plain wrong. Yes DfT wanted the cheapest solution (but so incidentally did some key decision makers at Stagecoach) but SWT negotiated and placed the contract and specified the operational requirements. I know that the SWT stakeholders were privately advised quite early on that there was a far higher degree of risk in this project than was being catered for.

The ROSCO, Alstom, Dft and SWT all share some of the blame. A blindly optimistic application of the infamously flawed NASA paradigm of "faster, better, cheaper", failure to understand the whole life costs, poor understanding of the condition of the asset being converted, a ludicrous decision to start with the hardest part of the conversion rather than the easiest and thus build up knowledge and experience of the work incrementally, driving the project plan from the end date instead of the work content and a dozen more examples from the "how not to conceive and execute a project" play book. All parties involved in this are complicit to a lesser or greater extent in the current SNAFU including SWT.

For reputational preservation it is understandable that SWT would now wish it to be known that "it wasn't us guv" but they have had many opportunities to drive this in a different way but didn't.

Don't think they did prototypes or a trial conversion either? If not then it seems pretty ludicrous especially as they're done for much less, like standard interior refurbishments.

 

[Dstock7080]

8501+8503 running empty via East Putney to Wimbledon depot 12.40 today.

 

[RobShipway]

There was a class 458/5 in the engine shed at Clapham Junction at 11:30am this morning. Unfortunately, I could not get a number for it but presume that it is either a recently delivered 458/5 or one of the existing ones stabled?

Also, on the London Waterloo - Reading route there was about 3 sets of 8 coach class 455's running on the route today with the 458/0's in the stabling yard at Clapham Junction. Was this down to the Rugby match today at Twickenham?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Interesting day for me on 458's...Stock change at Reading...I had worked 458023+458021 down to Reading and worked 458006 and 458022 back...Guess 458006 will be off soon.I couldn't get the number of the unit in Clapham Yard but im sure I saw 458503 (during the week) in there but am not fully sure.

In the afternoon I worked 458531 and 458502.Probably the best behaved 458'5s I have worked so far.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Congratulations on jinxing yourself.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Congratulations on jinxing yourself.

Damn.

 

[455driver]

Interesting day for me on 458's...Stock change at Reading...I had worked 458023+458021 down to Reading and worked 458006 and 458022 back...Guess 458006 will be off soon.I couldn't get the number of the unit in Clapham Yard but im sure I saw 458503 (during the week) in there but am not fully sure.

That must be a first!

 

[Kite159]

There was a couple 458/5s which were in Clapham yard this morning but pulled out of the yard (a bit) around 7:55 (cue some passengers awaiting the Doctor Hoo tour to get the cameras out to take pictures)

 

[arty762]

8010 is next unit due to Doncaster,
8536 was due back on last Thursday , but not seen it back yet.

 

[Juniper Driver]

That must be a first!

25 years of the Reading road and it is.The screens can be wrong at Reading at times.it was advertising the 1039 first and my train the 0939 second so I ignored it...Then an empty train came into platform 6 and it was advertised as my train.Could not set the radio up so I suspected something was wrong.It was...I was on the wrong train.

 

[WWTownEnth]

458501 Testing at WCD
458502 In service
458503 Testing at WCD
458504 Testing at WCD
458505 Doncaster
458510 Due to move to Doncaster soon
458530 Doncaster
458531 In service
458532 In service
458533 In service
458534 In service
458535 In service
458536 Testing at WCD

 

[Juniper Driver]

458501 Testing at WCD
458502 In service ✔
458503 Testing at WCD
458504 Testing at WCD
458505 Doncaster
458510 Due to move to Doncaster soon
458530 Doncaster
458531 In service ✔
458532 In service ✔
458533 In service ✔
458534 In service ✔
458535 In service ✔
458536 Testing at WCD

Thankyou.

 

[Goldfish62]

458501 Testing at WCD
458502 In service
458503 Testing at WCD
458504 Testing at WCD
458505 Doncaster
458510 Due to move to Doncaster soon
458530 Doncaster
458531 In service
458532 In service
458533 In service
458534 In service
458535 In service
458536 Testing at WCD

458501 and 503 have been on test for ages - surely they should have entered service by now. I can only assume the problems keep on coming.

 

[455driver]

25 years of the Reading road and it is.The screens can be wrong at Reading at times.it was advertising the 1039 first and my train the 0939 second so I ignored it...Then an empty train came into platform 6 and it was advertised as my train.Could not set the radio up so I suspected something was wrong.It was...I was on the wrong train.

I have done that once (my fault) at Guildford, I even buzzed the siggy up when the signal didnt clear to be told my train was on platform 2, not platform 1 , Cue the fastest cab shut down in history and a rather embarrassed driver legging it along the platforms to get to the right train!
The guard did a reasonable job of not peeing himself laughing but I could see his shoulders bouncing with him laughing!

 

[Driver@swt]

There is a pair in the shed at Clapham yard for crew training for a while now, it is two ex SWT 458 units, but I can't remember which.

 

[TEW]

That makes sense. SWT stated that 6 units would be delivered by the end of the Summer. (November is a bit late mind!) The first 4 were for 4 more diagrams (now running) and the next 2 for crew training.

 

[Goldfish62]

That makes sense. SWT stated that 6 units would be delivered by the end of the Summer. (November is a bit late mind!) The first 4 were for 4 more diagrams (now running) and the next 2 for crew training.

Ah right, so they're there for crew training. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I have done that once (my fault) at Guildford, I even buzzed the siggy up when the signal didnt clear to be told my train was on platform 2, not platform 1 , Cue the fastest cab shut down in history and a rather embarrassed driver legging it along the platforms to get to the right train!
The guard did a reasonable job of not peeing himself laughing but I could see his shoulders bouncing with him laughing!

Yeah but no indication at all...not even on the diagram.Not my fault but we didn't have a late start anyway and I even made announcement as the guard had gone walkies.I think I have pulled a few tricks like that in my time though.

 

[infobleep]

I have done that once (my fault) at Guildford, I even buzzed the siggy up when the signal didnt clear to be told my train was on platform 2, not platform 1 , Cue the fastest cab shut down in history and a rather embarrassed driver legging it along the platforms to get to the right train!
The guard did a reasonable job of not peeing himself laughing but I could see his shoulders bouncing with him laughing!

I once did that, as in boarded a train on platform 2 when I should have been on platform 1. Unfortunately as I don't drive the trains, it just left without me.