Class 458/5

[TEW]

The 450/5s are regaining their First Class though for the Reading services and for the other services they'll be cascaded to. Trains to Portsmouth need to be 100mph as that's the linespeed in places.

 

[jopsuk]

Reading is not going to 10 coach operation yet.
Not a good idea put 2 different trains with 2 different couplings on the same route!
What happens when one fails and the trains either side are not compatible?

Thought the 458s were getting Desiro-compatible couplers as part of the work? Regardless, the situation you describe is far from uncommon- eg 315s/317s and 379s on the West Anglia, 315s/321s and 360s on the Great Eastern. Yes, it can cause problems, but nothing that can't be dealt with.

 

[Monty]

this is a sort of reply to TEW and 455driver. As I mentioned before, SWT are treating the Reading line as if it's inner-suburban. The 450/5's are standard class only, and have toilets, so therefore are perfect for the Reading line. The 458's are 90 MPH gearing I believe, so that means they would be excellent for the Portsmouth direct line, plus they have first class, so that is a bonus.

That's all well and good, but if you do that the Hounslow, Weybridge and Windsor services will not be able to go 10 car as planned so how do you work that one out?

The 450/5s are regaining their First Class though for the Reading services and for the other services they'll be cascaded to. Trains to Portsmouth need to be 100mph as that's the linespeed in places.

The unit(s) wouldn't make great use of their 100mph capability to be honest (between Waterloo and Woking only if I'm not mistaken), to my knowledge nowhere on the Portsmouth Direct line has 100mph running.

 

[TEW]

Indeed, but pathing can be quite tight Waterloo-Woking so you do want the 100mph capability.

 

[455driver]

The Reading line has 1st class seats so the 450/5s are no good for it.

The 450/5s will have the 1st class re-instated (and be renumbered back to their 450/0 numbers) when the 458/5s start to appear in service so there will be just one fleet of 450s all with 1st class.

I am more interested in this regearing that is taking place because of this alledged overheating problem?
The 458s currently run at about 49% max power and are quite quick off the mark so why is this overheating problem suddenly appeared?

I reckon it will be no more than a software tweak and some new stickers in the cab and the TM gearing remaining as it is!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, but pathing can be quite tight Waterloo-Woking so you do want the 100mph capability.

Waterloo to Woking is max 90 anyway, on the up only the up fast is 100 through Woking but that is only as far as the M25 overbridge where it drops to 90.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thought the 458s were getting Desiro-compatible couplers as part of the work?

Only for emergency use, there wont be any brake continuity etc so its 5mph max.

 

[Helvellyn]

I am more interested in this regearing that is taking place because of this alledged overheating problem?
The 458s currently run at about 49% max power and are quite quick off the mark so why is this overheating problem suddenly appeared?

I reckon it will be no more than a software tweak and some new stickers in the cab and the TM gearing remaining as it is!

I don't know anything about overheating, but could one reason for regearing to be give improved acceleration for a 5-car vice the current 4-car units? There aren't enough 460 MSOs to make a 5-car DMSO-MSO-TSO-MSO-DMSO, so the formation is likely to be DMSO-MSO-TSO-TSO-DMSO, so regearing might be beneficial to help the units get away quicker fro the frequent station stops.

 

[TEW]

They aren't going to reach above 75mph on Windsor line services anyway, and as you say will be making frequent stops so it would make sense to regear for 75mph to improve acceleration.

 

[jopsuk]

Only for emergency use, there wont be any brake continuity etc so its 5mph max.

still going to be rather easier than an emergency coupling bar!

 

[swt_passenger]

I am more interested in this regearing that is taking place because of this alledged overheating problem?
The 458s currently run at about 49% max power and are quite quick off the mark so why is this overheating problem suddenly appeared?

The Modern Railways Feb 2012 article (that I mentioned in post #21 of this thread) had Ian Walsmley of Porterbrook explaining that:

Being 5 cars they will only operate in pairs rather than 3 x 4 cars and that means we can allow each unit to draw more current for a bit more performance. [...] but with an increased load, more vehicles and more frequent stops the motors will be working a lot harder and getting a lot hotter. The low average speed means that the fan on the motor shaft will not pull in enough air to cool it on a warm day and we will see motors overheating. [...] we could disable regenerative braking to solve that but that wouldn't be environmentally friendly. So the best answer is to re-gear the units from their unnecessary 100 mph to 75 mph. This means the motor spins faster for a given track speed and stays comfortable despite its harder life.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...As I mentioned before, SWT are treating the Reading line as if it's inner-suburban. The 450/5's are standard class only, and have toilets, so therefore are perfect for the Reading line.

I don't think you are correct with that bolded statement. SWT normally use units with first class (ie the current 458s) on the Reading service itself, so if anything they consider it outer suburban. The 450/5s do not usually operate the Reading service, they operate on inner suburban routes which includes Windsor and the Hounslow loop. But the fundamental point is that the 450/5s are also being changed back to normal, to work as a common fleet with all the other 450s which will include the Reading route.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...There aren't enough 460 MSOs to make a 5-car DMSO-MSO-TSO-MSO-DMSO, so the formation is likely to be DMSO-MSO-TSO-TSO-DMSO, so regearing might be beneficial to help the units get away quicker fro the frequent station stops.

There's a diagram here: http://www.wlpa.x10.mx/tencarpicture.jpg

...explaining how the vehicles are arranged before and after, which confirms your understanding. Quite a few ex 460 vehicles are being de-motored, presumably for a consistent fleet.

 

[rebmcr]

The Modern Railways Feb 2012 article (that I mentioned in post #21 of this thread) had Ian Walsmley of Porterbrook explaining that:

Being 5 cars they will only operate in pairs rather than 3 x 4 cars and that means we can allow each unit to draw more current for a bit more performance. [...] but with an increased load, more vehicles and more frequent stops the motors will be working a lot harder and getting a lot hotter. The low average speed means that the fan on the motor shaft will not pull in enough air to cool it on a warm day and we will see motors overheating. [...] we could disable regenerative braking to solve that but that wouldn't be environmentally friendly. So the best answer is to re-gear the units from their unnecessary 100 mph to 75 mph. This means the motor spins faster for a given track speed and stays comfortable despite its harder life.

Why not just fit an auxiliary temperature-triggered electrically-driven fan?

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps because they don't want to change all the motors for a type that uses an external fan. Maybe re-gearing is cheaper overall, or more reliable, (or even less prone to wrong type of snow or something) but I really know nothing other than what I read in the article.

There may be someone along with more knowledge of what's possible and a better answer...

 

[southern442]

My overall point is that the 458's are not designed for suburban. they are designed for lines like the Portsmouth and Alton lines. A good idea would be to split the 450/5's up so that 7 sets would be turned into two-car trains so 14 sets could become 5-car, the remaining 7 sets would be assigned in pairs plus one 2-car, this leaves one extra 4-car which could be paired up with 3x2-cars. One two car set would be left over for spares or to replace another train if necessary. A similar thing could be done with the rest of the fleet, or 455's, if needed. This means the 460's and 455's could stay with southern and provide extra capacity.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't the solution they've come up with more straightforward all round because the entire 127 unit fleet of 450s will be back to being completely interchangeable and usable in 3 x 4 car formation on the mainline side 12 car routes?

And then the smaller fleet of 458/5s will be dedicated to a particular subset of the route network?

No 455s are being transferred, so presumably that's a typo for 456s, but the 460s and 456s cannot stay with Southern AND provide for additional SWT capacity of 108 vehicles can they?

 

[Matt Taylor]

There is no 100mph running on the Pompey direct, the best you'll get is nudging 90 on the downhill gradient out of Haslemere towards Liphook. 100mph might be possible with tilting technology through the Godalming curves and between Petersfield and Rowlands Castle.

 

[southern442]

Isn't the solution they've come up with more straightforward all round because the entire 127 unit fleet of 450s will be back to being completely interchangeable and usable in 3 x 4 car formation on the mainline side 12 car routes?

And then the smaller fleet of 458/5s will be dedicated to a particular subset of the route network?

No 455s are being transferred, so presumably that's a typo for 456s, but the 460s and 456s cannot stay with Southern AND provide for additional SWT capacity of 108 vehicles can they?

Suppose so, and yes it was a typo. One thing they could of done is not get rid of the 421's, and that would leave an extra 158 on weekdays and an extra 450 at weekends. Another add on to my idea is have the 460's fitted with tight locks, and along with the 458's use them on the P'mth direct in 8 and 12 car formation. This would release a reasonable number of 444's and 450's, the 444's then could be moved to other lines, in turn releasing more 450's.

I take it the 458's will no longer be working the Ascot line then?

 

[Monty]

Suppose so, and yes it was a typo. One thing they could of done is not get rid of the 421's, and that would leave an extra 158 on weekdays and an extra 450 at weekends. Another add on to my idea is have the 460's fitted with tight locks, and along with the 458's use them on the P'mth direct in 8 and 12 car formation. This would release a reasonable number of 444's and 450's, the 444's then could be moved to other lines, in turn releasing more 450's.

I take it the 458's will no longer be working the Ascot line then?

To my knowledge the 460s already have tightlock couplers fitted, it's just obscured by the units 'Darth Vader' nose cones. Not sure about working in multiple in with class 458s as they are, I do not think the units are compatible in their current forms with each other. I have to ask, why do you seem to determined to make a case for 458s to work the Portsmouth Direct line? At the end of the day they is very little difference in real terms compared to a 450 when you look at the door and seating arrangements.

And yes no more 458s for the Ascot-Guildford branch, 456s from next year with a bit of luck.

 

[southern442]

To my knowledge the 460s already have tightlock couplers fitted, it's just obscured by the units 'Darth Vader' nose cones. Not sure about working in multiple in with class 458s as they are, I do not think the units are compatible in their current forms with each other. I have to ask, why do you seem to determined to make a case for 458s to work the Portsmouth Direct line? At the end of the day they is very little difference in real terms compared to a 450 when you look at the door and seating arrangements.

And yes no more 458s for the Ascot-Guildford branch, 456s from next year with a bit of luck.

First of all, the 460's have Scharfenberg coupling I'm pretty sure, second is that the 458's are wasted on the reading line and if anything should ideally be used on the Chatham main line or similar. Another reason for the second question, I think the 450's are rubbish trains compared to the 458, the 458's are some of my favorite trains.

 

[Monty]

First of all, the 460's have Scharfenberg coupling I'm pretty sure.

You are quite correct in saying that the 460s were built with a Scharfenberg coupler, however I have read publications that indicate at least some units have had their couplings changed to the tightlock type, see here. However I understand this may not have been carried out across the entire fleet.

second is that the 458's are wasted on the reading line and if anything should ideally be used on the Chatham main line or similar..

How are they 'wasted' on the Reading line? In terms of what they offer the passenger in regards to facilities they are no different from an Electrostar or a Desiro. Yes they are a 90mph capable unit on a route where the maximum line speed is only 70mph, but considering the products on offer from Bombardier and Siemens which can do 100mph isn't that even more of a waste to utilise those units on this route?

Another reason for the second question, I think the 450's are rubbish trains compared to the 458, the 458's are some of my favorite trains.

As a guard I am a big fan of the 458 from a train working point of view, I find them to be far less hassle than a Desiro (resetting the egress for starters is much easier), but even I do not consider the Desiro to be 'rubbish' it's still a highly competent design of train at the end of the train that carts commuters in and out of the capital with very little complaint. Now I do know passengers can prefer a specific type of train, but it's all down to personal preference, while I do enjoy working a 458 I cannot say the same for being a passenger in one. Compared to a 450 I find the passenger saloons in 458s are claustrophobic, suffer from poor light, I find the seats uncomfortable. This is not including some of the absolutely horrific 'whines and buzzing' noises that can be heard in specific units.

 

[transmanche]

As a guard I am a big fan of the 458 from a train working point of view, I find them to be far less hassle than a Desiro (resetting the egress for starters is much easier), but even I do not consider the Desiro to be 'rubbish' it's still a highly competent design of train at the end of the train that carts commuters in and out of the capital with very little complaint. Now I do know passengers can prefer a specific type of train, but it's all down to personal preference, while I do enjoy working a 458 I cannot say the same for being a passenger in one. Compared to a 450 I find the passenger saloons in 458s are claustrophobic, suffer from poor light, I find the seats uncomfortable. This is not including some of the absolutely horrific 'whines and buzzing' noises that can be heard in specific units.

As a semi-regular passenger on the Reading line, I'd say that the 458 is perfectly suited for journeys of that length. (I know 3+2 seating isn't great, but it's needed on this type of route.)

Considering that the units were once deemed to be so poor that SWT threatened to terminate the lease and return them to the ROSCO, they seem to have improved their reliability. And whilst I have issues with the door beeps and the unnecessary "the door buttons have been activated" message, they're really not that bad a unit.

 

[gswindale]

As a semi regular customer on the Reading line; I am disappointed that we're losing the 458s.

Whilst they do make some strange noises at times; the seats are, in my opinion, much more comfortable than those in the 450s (and Voyagers for that matter). They seem to have more padding than others which makes for a more comfortable ride.

 

[Monty]

As a semi-regular passenger on the Reading line, I'd say that the 458 is perfectly suited for journeys of that length. (I know 3+2 seating isn't great, but it's needed on this type of route.)

Considering that the units were once deemed to be so poor that SWT threatened to terminate the lease and return them to the ROSCO, they seem to have improved their reliability. And whilst I have issues with the door beeps and the unnecessary "the door buttons have been activated" message, they're really not that bad a unit.

Oh I agree, they are not a bad unit by any means. I guess I was just trying to prove a point about personal preference and that 458s are not better off on the Direct line rather than anywhere else. Despite their dodgy start into service they have done a sterling job on the Reading line.

 

[TEW]

Considering that the units were once deemed to be so poor that SWT threatened to terminate the lease and return them to the ROSCO, they seem to have improved their reliability.

Not just improved the reliability, they're now the most reliable trains in the country.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Not entirely on-topic for the refurb, but I thought this would be the best place to put this instead of opening up a new thread...

I'd quite like to 'scoop' all the 458s before they go through conversion (or as many as possible if any have been withdrawn already?) - can anyone confirm which line(s) they run on aside from Waterloo-Reading (my local line, luckily), and how many sets tend to be out day-to-day?

Are there also any rover-type tickets that encompass these routes (starting around Egham) or is my best bet going to be to try and get them all in travelcard zones?

Cheers in advance.

 

[swt_passenger]

None have moved north for conversion yet - this is probably still the plan because they wanted some complete units to arrive (built from ex 460 vehicles only) before releasing any 458s.

I haven't seen any up to date diagrams, but if there are more than 24 in total in service per day I'd be surprised, the utilisation of the class hasn't generally been too high.

There are no rovers that I can think of in the area, but the main use apart from Waterloo - Readings is going to be the Guildford - Ascot shuttles - the latter uses 2 trains per day IIRC, and if you wanted to see them the only easy answer seems to be a spell at Ascot?

 

[TEW]

Two are used on Guildford-Ascots as mentioned above. They'll generally stick around on the shuttles for a couple of weeks before they get swapped. The rest will all be out on Waterloo-Reading or peak Waterloo-Aldershot via Ascot services. The best place to get them is the Travelcard Zones and then make a trip to Ascot or Guildford for the other two. If you want to ride them all the best bet is Clapham Junction-Richmond moves, it's a fairly short connection at both ends. The two on Guildford-Ascot services can be done in half an hour since they follow each other. Catch one Guildford-Ash and the other back. You'd need to leave Guildford at 0800, 1030, 1300, 1530, 1800 or 2030.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Usually three of four parked at Wimbledon depot each day as well, visible from anything on the main line.

 

[southern442]

Oh I agree, they are not a bad unit by any means. I guess I was just trying to prove a point about personal preference and that 458s are not better off on the Direct line rather than anywhere else. Despite their dodgy start into service they have done a sterling job on the Reading line.

I would agree that the 458's have done a marvelous job on the Reading line, and because of these trains I now call this line the Reading main line! My point about the desiros may have been slightly exaggerated, as I quite like the 444's, and also the Portsmouth direct is just an example of a line they could play to their full power on. There are loads of other lines too.

About the Reading line, the ideal units would be 465/9's, as they are 75mph, and contain first class.

 

[SprinterMan]

As a semi-regular passenger on the Reading line, I'd say that the 458 is perfectly suited for journeys of that length. (I know 3+2 seating isn't great, but it's needed on this type of route.)

Considering that the units were once deemed to be so poor that SWT threatened to terminate the lease and return them to the ROSCO, they seem to have improved their reliability. And whilst I have issues with the door beeps and the unnecessary "the door buttons have been activated" message, they're really not that bad a unit.

To use a sickeningly childish analogy, it is nice to see these "ugly duckling" units become "swans". Porterbook or SWT or Alstom or whoever is responsible for maintenance has really done a stunning job with them, and hopefully the rebuild enhances things further.

Adam

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To use a sickeningly childish analogy, it is nice to see these "ugly duckling" units become "swans". Porterbook or SWT or Alstom or whoever is responsible for maintenance has really done a stunning job with them, and hopefully the rebuild enhances things further.

Adam

Good point. I remember using them when they were fairly new between Clapham Junction and Staines- and the number of defective doors was quite ridiculous. Like all of Washwood Heath's post-privatisation stock bar the 390s and 334s, they've taken a good decade to settle down but are now working pretty well and the 458s along with the 175s and 180s are among the finest units of their type in the country.

 

[jopsuk]

and because of these trains I now call this line the Reading main line! .

I suspect you are one of around one people that do this. It never will be the "Reading main line"- I'd suspect it carries very few Reading-Waterloo end-to-end passengers, with most passengers using an intermediate station for the start, end or both of their journey.